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Jarmak posted:That's not really how pricing bubbles interact with market segmentation. If there is a supply squeeze that causes 1/5 the supply of a GPU, and you can sell those GPUs at double the price, it doesn't mean you've established a new market at the new price. A simple supply-demand curve already tells you that you can sell anything at a higher price if you're willing to sell less of it, that's just moving along the curve, not shifting the curve. Companies already know in any given market a large number of their customers will pay a higher price, that's why price discrimination strategies are a thing. Yes, it seems really obvious that despite nominally decent adoption rates driven by wealthier hobbyists, most of the market, especially outside the US, simply can't afford (or isn't willing) to spend $1K+ on a GPU. Not aiming any product at that segment when the supply/demand normalises is just leaving money on the table.
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Jun 4, 2021 00:02
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lost in postation posted:Yes, it seems really obvious that despite nominally decent adoption rates driven by wealthier hobbyists, most of the market, especially outside the US, simply can't afford (or isn't willing) to spend $1K+ on a GPU. Not aiming any product at that segment when the supply/demand normalises is just leaving money on the table. I think the low end and midrange markets will return to sanity - even if you are convinced there is not a Great Going Outside coming over the next year or two, even just considering inside-dwellers, NVIDIA can't afford to lose GAMERZZZ to the console market. Anyone who buys a console and buys a game library and premium currency and skins for their games that they play every day with their friends (that can't be crossplayed with on PC) is buying a PS5 Pro and not a 40-series and that's lost revenue for NVIDIA for years if not a decade or more. Gaming is still a massive part of NVIDIA's revenue, they can't afford to bleed customers, and there is still a large segment of the market that is not willing to pay even  only $1000 for a GPU. The high end market will continue to go higher - there is very obviously a demonstrated market here and it's not only turbonerds and miners, it's at least big enough to push up to $2000 in the long term. There are other factors pushing this stratification as well. Gamerzzz refuse to buy any product with less than 8GB of VRAM even in a downmarket segment, and that drives up costs. Shipping costs are going nuclear, assembly and testing costs have gone up. All this translates to poor economies of scale for low-end products. To maintain the low-end price segments you have to be making the core cheaper and cheaper every year due to these factors, while moore's law has been over for a while and node costs are going up, it's just not sustainable. Meanwhile APUs are eating the low-end market, and consoles (which are just big APUs) are eating the midrange market. Pretty soon we will have APUs with 64MB or 96MB of cache onboard which basically is going to be like Infinity Cache is on dGPUs, allowing much better utilization of the available system memory bandwidth. The reality is the economics of the low-end market are fading and a lot of those customers just have an emotional attachment to buying a new dGPU every year - they're going to have to get used to buying APUs or upgrading their dGPU much less frequently. imo the $250 price point is basically dead going forward - there will be $250 cards, but not much that's compelling if you already own a $250 card - just like the GTX 960 and the $150 market was 5 years ago. Those people should just be looking to buy an APU, or a used high-end card from a generation or two back, or upgrade basically on a 6 year cycle. $400-500 will still have some good offerings. $700-1000 will continue to offer some good value for the high-end gamer. And at the top maybe there will be some  tier cards that don't offer total trash value in the $1500-2000 price point (perhaps chiplet GPUs with 2-4 really big dies on them). All of that translates into a wider stratification between various gaming segments though, the low-end segments are going to have "worthwhile" upgrade increments less and less and the high-end stuff will keep getting faster (and somewhat more expensive, but the perf/$ gains will be better in the $500-1000 bracket than the $250 bracket for sure).I think the upside is that again, a used high-end card from a couple gens back is going to be a good value in the low-end and midrange market, and in general people will be compelled to upgrade less frequently. People have adapted to this reality in the CPU market, that you don't need to upgrade every single generation unless you are a turbonerd who just wants the best rig possible. They haven't adapted to that in the GPU market, people still think they gotta upgrade every gen, because up until Pascal the gains were still pretty decent, but they're really slowing down now. Buying a high-end card (or, "overkill" for whatever your resolution is) less frequently may be a viable strategy too. Like if you bought an EVGA 2080 Ti for $949 (scarce but they were out there) you basically didn't have to upgrade this generation unless you really wanted to. 1080 Ti can still be hanging in there for a lot of people too, at least at 1440p. Someone who bought a 1080 for 1440p or a 1060 for 1080p is starting to fall behind, and 1070 for 1440p and 1050 Ti for 1080p are pretty much done as far as modern AAA titles. A $500 card every 4 years is the same money as a $250 card every 2 years, and a $1000 card every 4 years is the same money as a $500 card every 2 years. When advancement slows, just buying something nice and getting a long period use out of it becomes a good strategy. the other thing is - it ultimately is a shame that you can't buy an Xbox Series X or PS5 and use it as a desktop. It would absolutely have to be soldered down (no way to socket something like that I don't think), it might cost more due to lack of subsidies/expected revenue, but APUs are really the way forward for the low-end market and midrange market. Why pay for system memory AND GDDR6 on a card AND a CPU AND a GPU AND a motherboard AND a CPU cooler... the cost savings from engineering these all together are very significant, that's why they do it (and in fact the subsidies likely are not that significant, they can get pretty close to building what amounts to a whole drat midrange PC with an octocore and a 6700 non-XT for 600 bucks). If I could just buy a Series X for $1000 and use it as a mini PC I'd probably do it lol. Really excited to see where AMD goes with the cache-stacking on the APUs, that seems like a pretty solid way forward if we can't get unlocked consoles. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 00:31
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 the checkmark is a nice touch
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Jun 4, 2021 00:40
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:
I see that one Microsoft error message dev found new work. 
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Jun 4, 2021 00:42
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Having the bone/sex being able to run windows would reduce their hyper-optimised nature though. A generalist bone would be a very poor pc, its hardware is 9 years old.
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Jun 4, 2021 00:43
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you pretty much can buy an xbone that runs windows, the xbone SOC started showing up in chinese PCs a while ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf_YK2kSN_g presumably AMD and MS only signed a temporary deal for exclusivity on the silicon and now AMD is dumping their excess stock
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Jun 4, 2021 00:55
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Newegg just notified me I didn't win a 3080ti today. Oh no... Anyway
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Jun 4, 2021 00:55
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Zotix posted:Newegg just notified me I didn't win a 3080ti today. Oh no... Anyway yeah im pretty upset i didnt get the privilege of paying 1.8k for that zotac
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Jun 4, 2021 00:59
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Yeah the existence of the console market is a really good point. It's not just equivalent products that impact price competition but also alternative products. Not having an offering that can acceptably play the latest games in the mid range price bracket will result in the mid/low end of the market buying consoles instead.
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Jun 4, 2021 01:00
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Entered the Shuffle entirely on a lark, I mean you can't win if you don't play lollololol  
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Jun 4, 2021 01:08
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Collateral posted:Having the bone/sex being able to run windows would reduce their hyper-optimised nature though. yeah XBone is still on Jaguar cores, it's trash. Series X hardware is really good for the money though - although it's a different enough architecture it's a little tough to draw a direct comparison. Basically I guess the closest analogy would be an Ryzen 4750G (so, 8C/16T but less cache than a 3700X would) but clocked lower than you could do on desktop, and with GDDR6 memory feeding it (shared with the iGPU) which is high latency but really high bandwidth. It's definitely significantly lower IPC than people thought (probably more like a 2700X than a 4750G) but it's really not bad. And the iGPU is basically probably going to be the same territory a RX 6700 non-X will land. As far as "hyper optimized nature" that's a little crap. Yeah you're not getting the performance tuning and upscaling that you would on a console, but it's still way better than the hardware you could otherwise buy on a PC. And there's nothing particularly special about the hardware. Some weird chinese vendor did slap an XBone SOC on an integrated mini PC and LTT tested it - obviously it's the XBone so it's jaguar, basically 8 non-SMT netbook cores from 2010 running at 1.6 GHz, it's trash, but it's just a PC, windows understands exactly how it's supposed to work. The Series X hardware is far more capable and would make a good little mini PC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf_YK2kSN_g
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Jun 4, 2021 01:10
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I was 4 minutes away from missing the buy window 
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Jun 4, 2021 01:10
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Probably the only good thing to say about the 30 series is that it'll probably have a similar usage life to the 900 series. I can't see Lovelace coming anytime soon. I really hope so. My 970 lasted through the 10xx and 20xx tech, and has played games and acted as TV/YT for a long time. Hopefully my 3070 will last at the least through the tech on the newest consoles as well.
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Jun 4, 2021 01:12
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Smythe posted:building a huge fort in my living room out of graphics cards, plugging them in to mine *coin and cooking myself alive while reading cyoa books inside the fort and drinking yoohoo like a boss I hope you mean paper books because if you aren’t mining on your Android phone and iPad as well you may need to be purged by the Strawberry God.
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Jun 4, 2021 01:15
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Cross-Section posted:Entered the Shuffle entirely on a lark, I mean you can't win if you don't play lollololol congrats goon!!!!
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Jun 4, 2021 01:17
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Paul MaudDib posted:And there's nothing particularly special about the hardware. well the OG XBone does have the 32MB of ESRAM which has no counterpart on normal PC hardware, and is just dead weight on those chinese machines as far as I know
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Jun 4, 2021 01:17
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repiv posted:well the OG XBone does have the 32MB of ESRAM which has no counterpart on normal PC hardware, and is just dead weight on those chinese machines as far as I know that's fair, yeah, anything like that will be tough to use. although come to think of it I wouldn't say impossible. I wonder if Jaguar could be coaxed to use the same speculative exploit that let that researcher dump the undocumented instructions for Intel a while back? maybe there's some instruction that amounts to read/write the scratchpad, or maybe it's just assigned (or could be assigned with the right bios) into some memory aperture? that would actually be interesting to play with edit: https://blog.can.ac/2021/03/22/speculating-x86-64-isa-with-one-weird-trick/
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Jun 4, 2021 01:22
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Sphyre posted:congrats goon!!!! Thank you!
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Jun 4, 2021 01:23
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Ampere won't get you to 4K60 especially with RT so it seems like an interim generation
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Jun 4, 2021 01:25
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From the Dallas Microcenter today: I poo poo you not they implemented a god awful "footrace to the wall" queue system that you'd see in a Black Friday Walmart fist fight video. https://twitch.tv/videos/1044459510?t=1154s The store manager is basically acting like a prison warden. "Do not run, no pushing, no shoving" *Everyone runs to the line, pushing and shoving and crushing each other* There's literally a guy getting crushed who says "I can't loving breathe". That manager is drat lucky someone didn't get seriously hurt. mA fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 02:49
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spunkshui posted:I was hoping Nvidia took the time to make a 3080 that was easier to produce. 30 available at BB brick and mortar, parking lot has zero room and there are tents out with a minimum of several hundred people and police doing traffic/crowd control
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Jun 4, 2021 03:20
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mA posted:Lol of course everyone on earth with an elite EVGA account would be hammering their site at the same exact moment, because why wouldn't they? Anticipating this outcome is a sizeable chunk of why I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the 3090. edit: Which I managed to get through the step-up queue for in 18 minutes on May 11th. That someone who tried on the 13th is still waiting...that's one hell of a surge I managed to avoid through sheer dumb luck. I guess word didn't just get out here, it got out everywhere. Aoi fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 03:52
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Cross-Section posted:Entered the Shuffle entirely on a lark, I mean you can't win if you don't play lollololol EVGA too. Step-up that poo poo to a 3090.  The VRAM will be worth if you do any kind of professional work. Or just in general.
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Jun 4, 2021 04:33
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what do you do in those lines when you need to take a piss or a dump
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Jun 4, 2021 04:45
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the piss and poo poo ends up in bottles that then get dumped on the parking lot ground as it mixes with other people desperately waiting for a chance at the Bestegg Souffle queue also pissing on the ground, slowly snaking its way toward the nearest storm drain soon to end up in the bay
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Jun 4, 2021 04:47
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Sphyre posted:what do you do in those lines when you need to take a piss or a dump As far as the Microcenter lines go that I know about - so long as you have a chair there and people know your face, usually it's fine if you get up to go piss or get food or camp in the car when it's cold. As long as you're physically there when the vouchers are handed out, it's fine. It would help of course if you're there as a group with some folks so you can mind your seat. I would strongly suggest goons getting line groups together for the 3070ti launch if they're after them. Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:
Gonna make that checkmark into a discord emoji to give repeat newegg shufflers PTSD. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Jun 4, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2021 04:54
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Sphyre posted:what do you do in those lines when you need to take a piss or a dump At that microcenter, people were pissing in the corner of the building behind the transformer
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Jun 4, 2021 05:01
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How long before they start holding contests like those where last person with their hand on the car keeps it.
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Jun 4, 2021 05:33
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Spacedad posted:EVGA too. yeah the 3080 ti is expensive enough that if you're going to be crazy enough to get one you might as well spend a bit more and have double the vram instead of only 2 gb more than a card half the price.
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Jun 4, 2021 06:19
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Quick quick quick a prebuilt with a 3090 https://www.newegg.com/p/3D5-001U-00019?Description=rtx%203090&cm_re=rtx_3090-_-9SIAU1ZDAY4585-_-Product.
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Jun 4, 2021 06:32
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Duck and Cover posted:Quick quick quick a prebuilt with a 3090 https://www.newegg.com/p/3D5-001U-00019?Description=rtx%203090&cm_re=rtx_3090-_-9SIAU1ZDAY4585-_-Product. "Ships from China" does it also include the anime figures
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Jun 4, 2021 06:39
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Duck and Cover posted:Quick quick quick a prebuilt with a 3090 https://www.newegg.com/p/3D5-001U-00019?Description=rtx%203090&cm_re=rtx_3090-_-9SIAU1ZDAY4585-_-Product. big number for compy
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Jun 4, 2021 06:45
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DerekSmartymans posted:I hope you mean paper books because if you aren’t mining on your Android phone and iPad as well you may need to be purged by the Strawberry God. of course
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Jun 4, 2021 06:45
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but it has a figurine
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Jun 4, 2021 06:45
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it would be funny if OEMs and SIs picked up on the trend and started shipping prebuilts with a 3090, one stick of RAM, an Athlon 3000G on an A320 motherboard, and a "true-rated" PSU
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Jun 4, 2021 06:49
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taqueso posted:but it has a figurine i think. it has 2. one inside and one outside. ?
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Jun 4, 2021 07:02
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the girl inside... is in her undies O_O
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Jun 4, 2021 07:02
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I like the one sitting on the CLC hoses. *if you need dolls please contact us, otherwise the order does not contain dolls. hello seller, i need dolls
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Jun 4, 2021 07:12
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for that much I'd better get some dolls
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Jun 4, 2021 07:18
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inb4 thermal paste jokes
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Jun 4, 2021 07:28
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