Game Development Megathread

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Shalinor: Jun 10, 2002; _{Can I buy you a rootbeer?}

SuicideSnowman posted:

CryEngine is getting into the mix:

http://www.cryengine.com/news/crytek-announces-its-cryengine-as-a-service-program

Wait, 9.90/mo with NO royalties? How... can they make a profit on that? Even remotely? Surely there's a catch. I don't see a mention of source, maybe that's it?

In any case, Unity sitting there with a $1.8k flat cost (for most mobile-facing indies), and that's their "discount" rate, and no source access, is suddenly looking very silly. Can't wait to see what they do to step up, now that there's proper competition. :allears:

Shalinor fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Mar 20, 2014

# ? Mar 20, 2014 01:35

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# ? May 25, 2024 09:25

xgalaxy: Jan 27, 2004; i write code

Shalinor posted:

Wait, 9.90/mo with NO royalties? How... can they make a profit on that? Even remotely? Surely there's a catch. I don't see a mention of source, maybe that's it?

In any case, Unity sitting there with a $1.8k flat cost (for most mobile-facing indies), and that's their "discount" rate, and no source access, is suddenly looking very silly. Can't wait to see what they do to step up, now that there's proper competition.

CryEngine thing is just SDK. I dont think it has full source code to the engine.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 01:39

dupersaurus: Aug 1, 2012; Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Shalinor posted:

Wait, 9.90/mo with NO royalties? How... can they make a profit on that? Even remotely? Surely there's a catch. I don't see a mention of source, maybe that's it?

In any case, Unity sitting there with a $1.8k flat cost (for most mobile-facing indies), and that's their "discount" rate, and no source access, is suddenly looking very silly. Can't wait to see what they do to step up, now that there's proper competition.

Well, 9.90/month per user, which is still pretty crazy

# ? Mar 20, 2014 01:48

ErIog: Jul 11, 2001

xgalaxy posted:

CryEngine thing is just SDK. I dont think it has full source code to the engine.

The SDK was their program before. That SDK still exists. This new program seems like a pretty crazy new thing, and makes me want to look into it after I finish my current Unity project.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 02:05

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

BabelFish posted:

The low persistence display apparently came out of Valve research on motion sickness too.

Reminder:

Low-persistence displays have been in R&D at a lot of major companies for a while. Oculus and Valve might be the most well-known researchers, but it's building on plenty of work done elsewhere, including other games companies like Disney Interactive, universities like Carnegie-Melon, and display tech companies like Samsung and 3M.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 02:58

OneEightHundred: Feb 28, 2008; Soon, we will be unstoppable!

The UE4 "C++ source code" is probably just the new game DLL. The new pricing is certainly a lot better (25% royalty was awful), though the $20 up-front makes no sense at all.

Shalinor posted:

Wait, 9.90/mo with NO royalties? How... can they make a profit on that? Even remotely? Surely there's a catch. I don't see a mention of source, maybe that's it?

I'd imagine they can make a profit because they're still mainly developing the engine to make their own games, so they're not going to go out of business if nobody licenses it.

xzzy posted:

Here's hoping Source 2 is actually a new engine and not another layer of upgrades bolted on top of code that traces all the way back to Quake.

I'm all for code reuse and Valve has certainly gotten good mileage out of Source, but I am so goddamn tired of their content creation tools. I suspect they're in for a rude awakening if they expect anyone to put up with another 10 years of making maps in Hammer and dragging tga files on top of vtex.exe.

I think they've hinted at having major improvements to the SDK in the works. I doubt that they'd stop using it completely though, given that they kept with it even for a game that was about as not like HL2 as you can get, but they've also shown no sign that they're interested in making a serious play for the middleware market.

Suspicious Dish posted:

Low-persistence displays have been in R&D at a lot of major companies for a while. Oculus and Valve might be the most well-known researchers, but it's building on plenty of work done elsewhere, including other games companies like Disney Interactive, universities like Carnegie-Melon, and display tech companies like Samsung and 3M.

I don't think "a lot of major companies" even covers it: Delay and persistence have been 2 of the 3 core problems in wearable displays practically since their inception. (The third being bulkiness)

OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Mar 20, 2014

# ? Mar 20, 2014 03:23

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

OneEightHundred posted:

The UE4 "C++ source code" is probably just the new game DLL. The new pricing is certainly a lot better (25% royalty was awful), though the $20 up-front makes no sense at all.

The source code is up on GitHub. For the engine, and for the editor, and for samples. I paid $20 and I can see it.

I don't know why you think that $20/mo is bad.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 03:25

SuicideSnowman: Jul 26, 2003

OneEightHundred posted:

The UE4 "C++ source code" is probably just the new game DLL. The new pricing is certainly a lot better (25% royalty was awful), though the $20 up-front makes no sense at all.

It's the full engine source. Good luck finding an engine of this caliber with the full source for less than $20.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 03:28

OneEightHundred: Feb 28, 2008; Soon, we will be unstoppable!

Suspicious Dish posted:

The source code is up on GitHub. For the engine, and for the editor, and for samples.

Huh, okay.

quote:

I don't know why you think that $20/mo is bad.

I don't, I just think it's pointless to have an up-front cost at all and no evaluation period when they have that much residual.

e: How are they handling all of the middleware SDKs?

OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Mar 20, 2014

# ? Mar 20, 2014 03:30

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

Yesterday I went to lunch with some buddies and spent $20. I feel $20 is next to nothing for an evaluation period. If you want, you can pay $20 once, download the source code, and then cancel the subscription. This isn't violating the EULA (it's called out in their FAQ and they say it's fine). You can still ship a game with it, you'll just stop getting updates to the engine source code.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 03:40

Paniolo: Oct 9, 2007; Heads will roll.

OneEightHundred posted:

I don't, I just think it's pointless to have an up-front cost at all and no evaluation period when they have that much residual.

If you license UE4 for 3 developers (I'm assuming it's a $20/mo/seat license) for an 18 month project it's over $1000 in fees. They can make a decent buck off of it.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 04:29

OneEightHundred: Feb 28, 2008; Soon, we will be unstoppable!

Paniolo posted:

If you license UE4 for 3 developers (I'm assuming it's a $20/mo/seat license) for an 18 month project it's over $1000 in fees. They can make a decent buck off of it.

I know, that's my point. If they're expecting to make nearly all of the money over time, it's kind of weird to have an up-front payment and no trial or anything. But then, the terms are kind of weird in general, i.e. it's not really paying to use it, it's paying for any updates that come out that month.

The terms also seem like they have some weird holes, like the EULA defines "product" in a way that something using UE's stuff for content authoring would be completely excluded from the licensing terms if the final product didn't contain any UE code.

I'm still wondering how third-party SDKs are handled as well. Normally, access to the headers/libraries and such needed to link a C++ app against the various middleware libraries is under a much heavier restrictions than linking only through a compiled binary like UDK.

e: The second point is especially weird since they forbid distributing the editor with any licensed products, so apparently you can use UE's tools to make your not-UE game, but you can't ship an editor for your UE game to users. And the royalty scheme is kind of dumb, it effectively charges 5% on wholesale for physical and 5% on retail for digital.

Don't get me wrong, the terms are pretty generous, and much more generous than UDK, and I'm thrilled that there's engine source out there that can actually be called "modern" now, but the way they structured the terms doesn't make a lot of sense.

OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Mar 20, 2014

# ? Mar 20, 2014 05:08

roomforthetuna: Mar 22, 2005; I don't need to know anything about virii! My CUSTOM PROGRAM keeps me protected! It's not like they'll try to come in through the Internet or something!

OneEightHundred posted:

I know, that's my point. If they're expecting to make nearly all of the money over time, it's kind of weird to have an up-front payment and no trial or anything. But then, the terms are kind of weird in general, i.e. it's not really paying to use it, it's paying for any updates that come out that month.

The terms also seem like they have some weird holes, like the EULA defines "product" in a way that something using UE's stuff for content authoring would be completely excluded from the licensing terms if the final product didn't contain any UE code.

I'm still wondering how third-party SDKs are handled as well. Normally, access to the headers/libraries and such needed to link a C++ app against the various middleware libraries is under a much heavier restrictions than linking only through a compiled binary like UDK.

It is especially weird to do $20 a month to subscribe to updates, because who the gently caress wants updates every month in the middle of their project? I want an update once, if ever, when I'm done making a thing, so I can fix stupid poo poo that got broken in an update one time, not repeatedly. (And most likely I just don't want any updates unless there's a bug in my way, I'm happy to release with whatever library version I've been working with all along.)

# ? Mar 20, 2014 05:14

Niedar: Apr 21, 2010

You are paying for github repository access where you can file bug reports to the issue tracker or even send in pull requests. Basically, support and the ability to follow any commits to the repository. If you don't need that then resubscribe whenever you are ready to do an update.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 05:39

ceebee: Feb 12, 2004

Paniolo posted:

If you license UE4 for 3 developers (I'm assuming it's a $20/mo/seat license) for an 18 month project it's over $1000 in fees. They can make a decent buck off of it.

This is assuming each seat is being paid every month. If you're happy with a version you can just cancel your sub and not get updates. That 18 month project turns into $60 for 18 months, although I'm sure frequent updates will motivate people to reactivate their subscription.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 05:41

Paniolo: Oct 9, 2007; Heads will roll.

Any serious development effort - even if it's a small team - will pay a piddling monthly fee to have access to bugfixes and presumably support. Yeah, it's $20 up front if you're just going to fiddle around with it in the evening. That's not really who they're expecting to make any money off of.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 05:46

ErIog: Jul 11, 2001

Paniolo posted:

Any serious development effort - even if it's a small team - will pay a piddling monthly fee to have access to bugfixes and presumably support. Yeah, it's $20 up front if you're just going to fiddle around with it in the evening. That's not really who they're expecting to make any money off of.

If you're running a project with any kind of real budget it doesn't make any sense to maintain a subscription for your entire team over the life of the project. If you want to have your main programmer plugged into engine update stuff in order to do his job better then maybe you pony up the $20/month for him. As other people said, though, in serious development efforts you don't want to be upgrading your engine code unless there's a bug you're running into that you need a fix for. In that case even, a single seat for your main programmer would cover that.

It seems like that $20 is there to pay for ongoing support and less for the actual code itself. That's why they're not so concerned with people signing up, downloading, and then canceling. They get a 5% cut of any revenue later on anyway. It's in their interest to make sure people can get the tools in their hands. However, it is not in their interest to have to field a bunch of support requests for people doing work that's never intended to be released for money or may not ever generate any revenue. It's similar to the $100 charge on Steam Greenlight or the :10bux:

here.

I do think they'll end up earning not-insignificant amounts of money from hobbyists who forge to cancel their subscription, though.

ErIog fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Mar 20, 2014

# ? Mar 20, 2014 05:58

xgalaxy: Jan 27, 2004; i write code

I could be wrong on this. Since I'm just now getting to downloading the source code, etc.
But it looks like the way the third party middleware provider libraries are handled is you have to download some binary only dependency packages off github. So Epic must have worked out a deal with each of the middleware providers to make binary libraries available to any licensed Unreal engine user. Which this is loving amazing in itself that Epic managed to strike deals with all these different partners.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 06:27

dizzywhip: Dec 23, 2005

So I scrapped the C++ and SDL idea because I'm a baby and it was too much work. I'm trying out Unity instead and it's really nice. I'd never really considered using it before because I usually prefer to just write code instead of using these kinds of tools, but it's actually a lot of fun to use.

I've run into an issue trying to create a simple 2D tilemap though. I have a mesh set up with my tile texture, and the UV coordinates are set up for each vertex so that it shows the appropriate tile. It mostly works, but there are 1 pixel wide seams between each row. It might be a little hard to tell, but here's what it looks like (lovely placeholder art etc etc).

It actually looks perfect in the scene view though, here's a zoomed in view with the mesh selected.

Anyone know what might be causing this?

# ? Mar 20, 2014 13:36

Unormal: Nov 16, 2004; Mod sass? This evening?! But the cakes aren't ready! THE CAKES!; Fun Shoe

dizzywhip posted:

So I scrapped the C++ and SDL idea because I'm a baby and it was too much work. I'm trying out Unity instead and it's really nice. I'd never really considered using it before because I usually prefer to just write code instead of using these kinds of tools, but it's actually a lot of fun to use.

I've run into an issue trying to create a simple 2D tilemap though. I have a mesh set up with my tile texture, and the UV coordinates are set up for each vertex so that it shows the appropriate tile. It mostly works, but there are 1 pixel wide seams between each row. It might be a little hard to tell, but here's what it looks like (lovely placeholder art etc etc).

It actually looks perfect in the scene view though, here's a zoomed in view with the mesh selected.

Anyone know what might be causing this?

Probably texture filtering. You need to make sure the textures all have edge padding so you don't end up with sub-pixel empty "gutters" around each image when they get filtered. How you do that with whatever texture solution you're using, I dunno, but that's likely your issue.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 14:24

BabelFish: Jul 20, 2013; Fallen Rib

roomforthetuna posted:

It is especially weird to do $20 a month to subscribe to updates, because who the gently caress wants updates every month in the middle of their project? I want an update once, if ever, when I'm done making a thing, so I can fix stupid poo poo that got broken in an update one time, not repeatedly. (And most likely I just don't want any updates unless there's a bug in my way, I'm happy to release with whatever library version I've been working with all along.)

Updates will likely slow down in a few months. It's super powerful and you're perfectly capable of making games in it, but they're not joking when they say this is for early adopters and to check back in 6 months otherwise, it's still under active development.

BabelFish fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Mar 20, 2014

# ? Mar 20, 2014 19:05

Medieval Medic: Sep 8, 2011

For the first time ever, I am jumping into pathfinding, and boy I suck at it. For some reason, when trying to use A*, it doesn't return a list of nodes it took to get there, rather it just returns the end cell. This makes me depressed.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 19:07

SlightlyMadman: Jan 14, 2005

Medieval Medic posted:

For the first time ever, I am jumping into pathfinding, and boy I suck at it. For some reason, when trying to use A*, it doesn't return a list of nodes it took to get there, rather it just returns the end cell. This makes me depressed.

You should be able to modify your algorithm pretty trivially to keep a list as it goes, or are you using some sort of API?

# ? Mar 20, 2014 19:42

Medieval Medic: Sep 8, 2011

SlightlyMadman posted:

You should be able to modify your algorithm pretty trivially to keep a list as it goes, or are you using some sort of API?

Oh, I do keep a list(A dictionary actually), however, when the code reaches this part:

code:

public List<Tile> ReconstructPath(Dictionary<Tile, Tile> cameFrom, Tile current)
        {
            if (cameFrom.ContainsKey(current))
            {
                List<Tile> path = ReconstructPath(cameFrom, cameFrom[current]);
                path.Add(current);
                return path;
            }
            else
            {
                List<Tile> path = new List<Tile>();
                path.Add(current);
                return path;
            }
        }

It jumps straight to the else. And it's really hard to debug, because cameFrom contains about 2000 pairs.

Medieval Medic fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Mar 20, 2014

# ? Mar 20, 2014 20:01

ryde: Sep 9, 2011; God I love young girls

Medieval Medic posted:

It jumps straight to the else. And it's really hard to debug, because cameFrom contains about 2000 pairs.

Dumb question but are you defining GetHashCode and Equals in your Tile class? Because a Dictionary needs those to be properly implemented to use it as a key.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 20:07

Medieval Medic: Sep 8, 2011

ryde posted:

Dumb question but are you defining GetHashCode and Equals in your Tile class? Because a Dictionary needs those to be properly implemented to use it as a key.

I was not, I will look into it and see if it helps.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 20:17

SlightlyMadman: Jan 14, 2005

My guess is that you're simply forgetting to add the last tile to the dictionary before calling ReconstructPath.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 21:07

Medieval Medic: Sep 8, 2011

SlightlyMadman posted:

My guess is that you're simply forgetting to add the last tile to the dictionary before calling ReconstructPath.

Ryde actually got it right. I had to override Equal and GetHashCode because they weren't being compared properly. Thanks a bunch Ryde, in 15 minutes you solved what I had wasted 3 hours on!

# ? Mar 20, 2014 21:22

Synthbuttrange: May 6, 2007

Shalinor posted:

Wait, 9.90/mo with NO royalties? How... can they make a profit on that? Even remotely? Surely there's a catch. I don't see a mention of source, maybe that's it?

In any case, Unity sitting there with a $1.8k flat cost (for most mobile-facing indies), and that's their "discount" rate, and no source access, is suddenly looking very silly. Can't wait to see what they do to step up, now that there's proper competition.

quote:

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Well there you go.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 22:08

dizzywhip: Dec 23, 2005

Unormal posted:

Probably texture filtering. You need to make sure the textures all have edge padding so you don't end up with sub-pixel empty "gutters" around each image when they get filtered. How you do that with whatever texture solution you're using, I dunno, but that's likely your issue.

Hmm, I gave that a shot and it didn't seem to help. Is this an issue if I'm using point filtering? I'm wondering if the issue is possibly a lack of floating point precision in the UV map. It'd be nice to be able to use pixel units instead of UVs.

I'm considering just building one big texture for the tilemap instead to make sure there are no seams. That was my first approach and it looks perfect visually, but I figured UV mapping the tiles would be a lot more performant. I don't have a lot of experience working with 3D systems so I'm not sure if this is a stupid idea or not.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 23:42

Jewel: May 2, 2009

dizzywhip posted:

Hmm, I gave that a shot and it didn't seem to help. Is this an issue if I'm using point filtering? I'm wondering if the issue is possibly a lack of floating point precision in the UV map. It'd be nice to be able to use pixel units instead of UVs.

I'm considering just building one big texture for the tilemap instead to make sure there are no seams. That was my first approach and it looks perfect visually, but I figured UV mapping the tiles would be a lot more performant. I don't have a lot of experience working with 3D systems so I'm not sure if this is a stupid idea or not.

Your current way is much more efficient. I'm not versed much with unity, so I can't fix your problem though :shobon:

# ? Mar 20, 2014 23:48

xgalaxy: Jan 27, 2004; i write code

SynthOrange posted:

http://unity3d.com/5

Well there you go.

Not sure what your pointing at here.
They had that sub model for a little while now. And it locks you into near full price anyway. You can't cancel anytime.

xgalaxy fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Mar 21, 2014

# ? Mar 21, 2014 00:09

floofyscorp: Feb 12, 2007

SynthOrange posted:

http://unity3d.com/5

Well there you go.

That 'low monthly payments' line seems a bit ironic now.

# ? Mar 21, 2014 00:19

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

floofyscorp posted:

That 'low monthly payments' line seems a bit ironic now.

Because a more powerful engine with source access is available for a lower monthly fee?

I'm sure unity will maintain a large following because there are enough people afraid of c++.

# ? Mar 21, 2014 01:14

Shalinor: Jun 10, 2002; _{Can I buy you a rootbeer?}

leper khan posted:

Because a more powerful engine with source access is available for a lower monthly fee?

Well, yes.

leper khan posted:

I'm sure unity will maintain a large following because there are enough people afraid of c++.

The pertinent question being - if that did happen, do you really want to use the engine whose entire userbase is afraid of C++? They'd be optimizing toward those users then, not power users. Not that they're doing that now, but their userbase is presently wide reaching.

EDIT: I don't mean this is what they're doing now - just that given time, if their userbase shifts, then so would their focus. This almost certainly isn't what they want, and so now they'll put up a fight to retain their market dominance. Which is good for everyone, competition is awesome.

Shalinor fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Mar 21, 2014

# ? Mar 21, 2014 01:25

Yodzilla: Apr 29, 2005; Now who looks even dumber?

Beef Witch

It's not like Unity hasn't been making their engine better. I mean hell some of the changes in just 4.3 were pretty drat rad. Now it's just other engines firing back and bit so they've got to recognize that and keep ahead if the indie-centric engine market.

The fact that such a thing even exists is pretty rad actually.

# ? Mar 21, 2014 01:56

OneEightHundred: Feb 28, 2008; Soon, we will be unstoppable!

Shalinor posted:

The pertinent question being - if that did happen, do you really want to use the engine whose entire userbase is afraid of C++? They'd be optimizing toward those users then, not power users. Not that they're doing that now, but their userbase is presently wide reaching.

Unity kinda needs to do more than rest on their laurels, if they want to remain relevant.

Not using C++ was a choice anyway. Doing everything in C++ is a very double-edged sword because it drags in a lot of baggage like uninitialized variables, memory stomps, application crashes, and security risks. The performance benefit barely matters for the audience that Unity is trying to target.

# ? Mar 21, 2014 02:40

ceebee: Feb 12, 2004

One thing I noticed about UE4 is the fact that it requires a beast of a system. My 8GB of RAM and 560GTX get swamped with UE4, whereas Unity can run fairly quick on a low spec machine. Also, some of their example Blueprint games run like poo poo even in standalone for me, and they're fairly simple games too.

I can see UE4 being good for mid-size teams. But definitely not for the individual user or a couple people, at least not yet.

ceebee fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Mar 21, 2014

# ? Mar 21, 2014 03:07

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

dizzywhip posted:

Hmm, I gave that a shot and it didn't seem to help. Is this an issue if I'm using point filtering? I'm wondering if the issue is possibly a lack of floating point precision in the UV map. It'd be nice to be able to use pixel units instead of UVs.

I'm considering just building one big texture for the tilemap instead to make sure there are no seams. That was my first approach and it looks perfect visually, but I figured UV mapping the tiles would be a lot more performant. I don't have a lot of experience working with 3D systems so I'm not sure if this is a stupid idea or not.

Keep in mind that texture atlassing is a hack, and with array textures, you gain all of the benefits of atlassing (no need to switch out texture units or flush pipelines) without any of the downsides (sampling artifacts across sub-texture boundaries)

# ? Mar 21, 2014 03:47

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# ? May 25, 2024 09:25

Flownerous: Apr 16, 2012

Except support for atlasing different sized images without wasting memory, and support on OpenGLES, right?

dizzywhip, some ideas:

If you're worried about UV precision just use a power-of-two sized texture. All the pixel positions will be exactly representable in a float then.

It could be an off by half a pixel issue, sometimes you need a half-pixel offset when you're trying to match texels to screen pixels.

Are you using mip maps? If so they will blur at the tile edges in your atlas. You can disable mip maps if you never want to zoom in or out, or generate them yourself, avoiding any blurring at the tile edges.

# ? Mar 21, 2014 07:04

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