Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

Also, number of felonies with political motivation in Germany:



Upper two bars are right-wing felonies, lower bars are left-wing ones

Blut posted:

And this is exactly why anti-fascists come across as petulant teenagers throwing tantrums almost all of the time.

Why engage in the democratic process like an adult, and actually try to change things, when instead you can instead sit on the sidelines assaulting people, calling right-wing parties nazis and left wing parties collaborators?

Ligur posted:

Uhh, ok, who in Europe is calling for deaths and wants to abolish democracy and so on?

It seems like I haven't been following or something. Well, I guess I actually haven't for a year or two.

Namarrgon posted:

You can't really argue and debate with people not interested in debating. See Trump as a case study. So at what point should you stop trying? After they take over the legitimate government? This is a legit question and I don't know the answer to it.

Hambilderberglar posted:

Forgive me if I don't find that much common ground with people who are perfectly content to smear whole groups

Hambilderberglar posted:

There's a word for people like you, you know.
"Collaborator".

Ligur posted:

Yes, very nice and true and all, but the overrepresentation of the far right is almost exclusively in non-violent crimes (the left-wing is actually more violent). Crimes like holocaust denialism or perhaps writing something negative about Muslims on the internet and so on.

For your average Joe/Jürgen/Hans assaulting someone because they have different political opinions is not an effective PR tool. Yes, I know (or at least have been given the reason to believe) the left rationalizes this by saying the nazis COULD be more violent soon, you see it's just around the corner hence it's justified to meet wrong opinions or "violence towards your feelings or political beliefs" with real physical violence (against people or against, say, store windows and buses) but for an average European taxpayer, this just sounds bad and is not going to sell.

9-Volt Assault posted:

Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, by saying that dirty Syrians fleeing the war need to stay in their own drat country. Also, his election platform is literally a single page with bullet points that is for at least 50% completely illegal. For example, he wants things like banning the Quran (he said that if Mein Kampf is banned, the Quran should also be banned, because banning books is bad ) and go into people's houses to see if they dont secretly have one.

Also, anyone who opposes him is called fake, so we have a fake parliament and fake judges and fake media.

But hey, i guess you're right, he doesnt literally say ''abolish democracy'' so he is just a fine upstanding citizen.

sheep-dodger posted:

I'm sure these ten attacks a day on refugees last year were more than equally matched by violent leftists.

quote:

According to the ministry, there were more than 3,500 attacks on refugees and asylum hostels

Doctor Malaver posted:

Ligur posted:

Ok, so has Wilders really said Syrians should literally stay in Syria, or, has he said they should not come to the Netherlands but instead perhaps re-locate to neighbouring countries instead?

Anyway not everything is completely black or white, or 0 or 100 with nothing in between. I don't think Geert Wilders wants to kill people or abolish democracy, but I don't think he is "just a fine updstanding citizen" either.

(Banning books is stupid, yes.)


This came about when quadribazillion young Arab men suddenly entered the country in 2016 and isn't a normal situation by far, you understand this yes? The attackers might also be stupid loving thugs who are pissed (I've read about simply fights between locals and foreigners as tensions flare), not only organized "nazis" or "right-wingers".

Hambilderberglar posted:

I forgot. Being anti-nazi means I have to be held to a higher standard by liberals, because calling people collaborators is basically quoting Der Sturmer.
If my eyes roll any harder they might pop out of my head entirely.

sheep-dodger posted:

If people decide that they'd rather burn a house than let foreign refugees live there, what is that?

quote:

According to the ministry, there were more than 3,500 attacks on refugees and asylum hostels

Doctor Malaver posted:

You're failing to meet standards for intelligent discussion. You said that you don't have common ground with people who smear whole groups of people, even though just one post before that you had smeared a whole group of people. So you don't have common ground with yourself!

Ligur posted:

It appears you have not considered who the attackers really might have been. (I assume you have strong left-leaning views in politics, so you might automagically think everything bad -> the right-wing, but it's not always so.)

Guess who are the most common attackers when refugee and asylum hostels are involved in Finland? Other refugees. I won't start googling not but I've read numerous news of asylum seekers duking it out in Germany, Sweden and on. Asylum seekers get into fights out of frustration, Christian and Muslim refugees don't get along any better in cramped asylum centers than they did where they came from where basically all the violence incl. civil wars is ethnically/religiously motivated and thus forth.

So until there is some solid data on that it is certain the perps in these 10 attacks a day were "by right-wingers" I wouldn't really bring that stat much when discussing political felonies in Europe.

sheep-dodger posted:

For the attacks on refugee centres:
Spiegel reports that according to the German Federal police out of 921 attacks in 2016 857 have a right-wing background.
Right-wing violence against refugees is real and overwhelming over the last two years. Just because we don't have all the numbers, doesn't mean that the numbers we do have don't point to a strong surge in right-wing violence.
Yes, there have been clashes between refugees and right-wingers and between refugees. But claiming that the right is not currently assaulting the basis of our democratic system (compare also their attacks on our media, such as the Fake News/Lügenpresse narratives) is just willful ignorance.

Blut posted:

And this is exactly why anti-fascists come across as petulant teenagers throwing tantrums almost all of the time.

Why engage in the democratic process like an adult, and actually try to change things, when instead you can instead sit on the sidelines assaulting people, calling right-wing parties nazis and left wing parties collaborators?

Blut posted:

And this is exactly why anti-fascists come across as petulant teenagers throwing tantrums almost all of the time.

Why engage in the democratic process like an adult, and actually try to change things, when instead you can instead sit on the sidelines assaulting people, calling right-wing parties nazis and left wing parties collaborators?

Ligur posted:

I have no doubt in Germany the far-right is not very happy about the asylum seeker rush of 2015/2016, thanks for the link, I had no idea it was quite that bad. One can fuss about the exact numbers (10 attacks a day? Or 3500 attacks? Or 921 attacks?) but drat

We don't have anything like this in tiny Finland if you didn't know, btw. Our possibly violent extreme left has perhaps 100 or 200 members, our possibly violent far-right has perhaps 50 or 100 Basically you could fit all of them inside four or maybe six buses.

Good.

YF-23 posted:

Active resistance against fascists is engaging in the democratic process like an adult. Crying that anti-fascists are the real fascists because they don't sit back and let the far-right do its thing, is, in fact, what's childish and immature.

Also loving lol @ "sit on the sidelines assaulting people". gently caress off man, you are calling political action sitting by the sidelines and saying that political inaction is (somehow) engaging in the democratic process what brings change, what the gently caress even.

Blut posted:

Setting up a political party, helping local people in your area with their problems and gaining their support as a result, winning elections to local/national government, and implementing policies that you believe will help people is engaging in the political process like an adult.

Throwing paint at buses is behaving like a spoilt child.

The former option helps drain support from far right-wing parties. The latter increases it.

Refusing to compromise even slightly on your extremist hard-left views is also what lets the neo-liberals and right-wingers take and control power. See for example the current French election, where the split between the left candidates will likely result in Fillon or Macron (or even possibly Le Pen) becoming president.

Fiction posted:

neither PS nor melenchon is anywhere close to "hard left" lol

Namarrgon posted:

It really is. It even includes that condescending shoulder grasp of your old racist uncle trying right after they say "the world isn't fair", apparently forgetting they inherited their priesthood house.

Fiction posted:

So you don't know what you're talking about and think the world stops at the suomen rajalla, therefore the far right isn't far more violent? Gotcha.

quote:

Somewhat surprisingly, the actual number of violent crimes is often higher for the far left than for the far right. In 2014 they were roughly equal (990 and 995, respectively), but in 2015 both exploded to 1,408 far right and 1,608 far left.

LemonDrizzle posted:

Since I'm sure everyone ITT was waiting for it with bated breath, here's Marine Le Pen's manifesto... in English, for some reason[/url]

Einbauschrank posted:

Fun fact: More Greeks own a house than Germans.

Fiction posted:

does that figure include Cop Crimes

Ligur posted:

oooh a smug leftist in d&d who makes stupid accusations and then turns to edgy humour about oppression by teh man

Blut posted:

Refusing to compromise even slightly on your extremist hard-left views is also what lets the neo-liberals and right-wingers take and control power. See for example the current French election, where the split between the left candidates will likely result in Fillon or Macron (or even possibly Le Pen) becoming president.

sheep-dodger posted:

For the attacks on refugee centres:
Spiegel reports that according to the German Federal police out of 921 attacks in 2016 857 have a right-wing background.
Right-wing violence against refugees is real and overwhelming over the last two years. Just because we don't have all the numbers, doesn't mean that the numbers we do have don't point to a strong surge in right-wing violence.
Yes, there have been clashes between refugees and right-wingers and between refugees. But claiming that the right is not currently assaulting the basis of our democratic system (compare also their attacks on our media, such as the Fake News/Lügenpresse narratives) is just willful ignorance.

unpacked robinhood posted:

What's everyones opinion on the 2246 violent crimes carried by the left in 2015, mainly against the German police ?

Blut posted:

Setting up a political party, helping local people in your area with their problems and gaining their support as a result, winning elections to local/national government, and implementing policies that you believe will help people is engaging in the political process like an adult.

Throwing paint at buses is behaving like a spoilt child.

The former option helps drain support from far right-wing parties. The latter increases it.

Refusing to compromise even slightly on your extremist hard-left views is also what lets the neo-liberals and right-wingers take and control power. See for example the current French election, where the split between the left candidates will likely result in Fillon or Macron (or even possibly Le Pen) becoming president.

unpacked robinhood posted:

What's everyones opinion on the 2246 violent crimes carried by the left in 2015, mainly against the German police ?

Blut posted:

The right-wing populists are at least engaging in the democratic process peacefully.