|
PF also has a lot of (decent quality, nice looking) support - more rules, setting books, entire adventure campaigns, third party modules, and GM aides. 5E's support is scanty at best (understandably so, it's new) and also somewhat uncertain looking into the future.
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2014 22:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 01:21 |
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:The impression I got from the Fatal and Friends review of PF is that it's worse than 3.5. Am I wrong? Core PF is basically identical to core 3.5 except for a couple minor quality of life things (slightly less granular skill points, semi-unified combat maneuver rules, etc), but it completely ignores any of the nice stuff from late 3.5 (MIC rebalancing of magic items, MM4/5 better monster design, Tome of Battle, etc). Some equivalents have been added in fits and starts but there's been zero sense of class balance or even real rules and gameplay comprehension from the developers, as compared to 3.5 lurching in fits and starts towards a spread of tier 3 options and smoother gameplay for DMs over its lifespan. For an example of when Pathfinder goes absurdly wrong, take a look at Sacred Geometry, which is basically "you can get free metamagic on most of your spells by taking extra time during all your turns to roll more dice and then do math, and the action resolution depends on it so everyone else has to sit there and wait while you do a mathematics puzzle". Edit: The only true D&D is Pathfinder with everyone playing Arcanists with Arcanist cohorts, and all of them have Sacred Geometry and Craft Wondrous Item. Roadie fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2014 22:41
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Zak S and RPGPundit They did not write the PHB. They were featured in the credits as people who they asked for feedback from, that is quite different then they helped write the thing, It's also a stupid thing hold a grudge about."Two people who are not very likable opinion's were asked and I am going hold a grudge about this."
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2014 22:45
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:"Two people who are not very likable opinion's were asked and I am going hold a grudge about this." "I know literally nothing about the two most toxic assholes in the hobby."
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2014 22:57
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:They did not write the PHB. They were featured in the credits as people who they asked for feedback from, that is quite different then they helped write the thing, It's also a stupid thing hold a grudge about."Two people who are not very likable opinion's were asked and I am going hold a grudge about this." So, uh, you know Mikan? Former goon, she made Last Stand and has been harassed by Zak S' fanbase pretty consistently for the past few years? You know how she wrote to Mearls after Zak S being a consultant got revealed about that harassment and Mearls said he'd look into it? And you know how Mearls' next statement on the subject was that he talked to Zak about it and he said that goons have a grudge against him so he's leaving it at that, proving that he puts the harasser's word over the harassed's and is thus a piece of poo poo? I mean, yeah, Cirno's overstating how involved they were in the actual production of 5e, but there's more to this than "two people who aren't very likable".
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2014 23:04
|
|
|
Lurks With Wolves posted:So, uh, you know Mikan? Former goon, she made Last Stand and has been harassed by Zak S' fanbase pretty consistently for the past few years? You know how she wrote to Mearls after Zak S being a consultant got revealed about that harassment and Mearls said he'd look into it? And you know how Mearls' next statement on the subject was that he talked to Zak about it and he said that goons have a grudge against him so he's leaving it at that, proving that he puts the harasser's word over the harassed's and is thus a piece of poo poo? Their involvement isn't as toxic as people make it out to be but it is emblematic of a problem with 5e as a whole. There's no doubt in my mind that the two of them were largely ignored and had no hand in writing Next, mostly because I have a hard time believing any more than a handful of voices were involved with writing it at all. I do think they were placated as far as they needed to be to get their names tossed in the credits, and I think that they were only selected because they are grog magnets and that was the big marketing plan for 5th. I think the fact that they needed to include a couple of big names in the grog hold-out community is a big problem and the fact that they selected those two voices in particular is especially galling. That the Zak continues to be a problem and people continue to believe him when he says he isn't a problem is just so much putrid icing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2014 23:10
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Anyway it's seems to be pretty well liked. With most people that like it even on this site not posting on this thread because they tend to get shouted down for liking it. They get shouted down for dumb poo poo like that one in your title.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2014 23:12
|
|
|
He's not worth engaging. He still thinks most people in this thread have not played NEXT, despite very specific critiques of the mechanics.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2014 23:15
|
|
|
Reminder: this is the person you are arguing with Those are the reading comprehension skills you are contending with
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2014 23:41
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:Their involvement isn't as toxic as people make it out to be but it is emblematic of a problem with 5e as a whole. Mearls has stated he's a big fan of both, both now and several times before the lead up to 5e. He absolutely wanted them to be a part of 5e. They weren't just brought in to subdue grogs.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 00:01
|
|
|
If those two don't disgust you, it's either because you are also terrible or just haven't done your homework. E: Or you are Mike Mearls and literally wrote their names in your flagship product and are experiencing at least 60% of known logical fallacies at any given moment. moths fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Dec 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 00:18
|
|
|
moths posted:If those two don't disgust you, it's either because you are also terrible or just haven't done your homework. I don't like them. I read one of Zak S posts in the past decided I did not enjoy the guy and ignored him. I don't read ether of their stuff. Also on FMguru I hate people for never letting go of poo poo I already admitted I was wrong about. But you guys can't let anything go. Anyway in good news for me, I just won one of the Trivia contests Wotc is hosting and have won the Tiamat mini. So I am pretty happy right now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 02:41
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Anyway in good news for me, I just won one of the Trivia contests Wotc is hosting and have won the Tiamat mini. So I am pretty happy right now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 02:50
|
|
|
FMguru posted:Congratulations! That is a really good prize for you because it probably contains few (or no) words for you to misread and misunderstand. Hey, he already received a driveby poo poo on, no need to pile on and be a dick about it. Grats MonsterEnvy on the dragon!
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 02:52
|
|
|
I know there's a lot of Next hate around, but I'd like to offer a simple opinion to the contrary. Next has a very low barrier of entry. I hadn't played D&D in nearly 20 years, and getting back into it with Next has been incredibly easy, and a lot of fun. Some of the rules are a little convoluted, but the whole thing is actually pretty well written and easy to get into. As a relative new-comer to the whole scene, I have no previous like or dislike for anyone in the community, so that doesn't bias my opinion at all. I won't deny that other versions (3.5, PF and 4) may offer up something better, but honestly, 5e is a lot of fun.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 02:57
|
|
|
Gerdalti posted:I won't deny that other versions (3.5, PF and 4) may offer up something better, but honestly, 5e is a lot of fun. My experience with 5e is that it's The Weird Wizard Show. Whether one considers this a bug or a feature is the only real discussion point, and that's a discussion neither side is gonna win the other over on.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 03:14
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:What's the difference, you ask? Well, in the 5th Edition DMG, right below that last paragraph I quoted, is a table for randomly rolling forms of government. I didn't understand the idea of matriarchy being a separate form of government back when I read about the City of Hardby in Greyhawk, and I still don't now. Okay, women have all the privileged and powerful positions in society. But is said society an absolute monarchy? Does a council of elders decide things? Is the church in control? Patriarchy and matriarchy are great descriptors for a culture, but terrible descriptors for a government.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 03:26
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:I don't like them. I read one of Zak S posts in the past decided I did not enjoy the guy and ignored him. I don't read ether of their stuff. I know I've given you poo poo for your D&D opinions, but I want you to know I'm proud of you for this one thing. And also congratulations on the mini! She's a legitimate legend of D&D and having her in mini form is cool. Especially with a story that isn't "I went to the store and dropped dollars."
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 04:21
|
|
|
Libertad! posted:I didn't understand the idea of matriarchy being a separate form of government back when I read about the City of Hardby in Greyhawk, and I still don't now. You could probably add Plutocracy to that (how does it work? Does the person with the most wealth at any given moment act as supreme dictator, and it shifts as soon as the person in charge isn't the richest? Is it like a feudal society but with companies owning companies all the way down? Is it more like a democracy but votes are based on the amount of tax you pay or wealth you own? A confederacy of merchant guilds arranged in power by how much they contribute to "public" stuff? Just one super rich dude who's a dictator but only because if he called in everyone's debts the country would fall apart? Oooh, is it something to do with how gp=xp*?). Also Militocracy (which is going to look like a dictatorship or hierarchical system but run by the army) and Gerontocracy (which could be anything but with an age restriction). That Tiamat mini is pretty loving neat, if it's the one I think it is. Congratulations on the win! *Yeah, I know it doesn't in 5th. But think about it. Rulership by the people who plundered the most dragon lairs. Want to be in charge? Plunder more dragon lairs than everyone else. Traditionally, you can't use an army - that wouldn't work because the political power divides by the number of people involved. Think about what that might mean in context of a communist system. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Dec 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 05:12
|
|
|
moths posted:Asking about Next amounts to asking beer snobs "Hey what do you guys think about Coors Lite?" Beer snobs who hang out in the Coors Lite thread.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 05:19
|
|
|
Gerdalti posted:I know there's a lot of Next hate around, but I'd like to offer a simple opinion to the contrary. Is it fun because of the rules or in spite of the rules?
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 05:25
|
|
|
Gerdalti posted:Next has a very low barrier of entry. I hadn't played D&D in nearly 20 years, and getting back into it with Next has been incredibly easy, and a lot of fun. Some of the rules are a little convoluted, but the whole thing is actually pretty well written and easy to get into. As a relative new-comer to the whole scene, I have no previous like or dislike for anyone in the community, so that doesn't bias my opinion at all. There are heaps of games that are much quicker to learn and to set up, but it's true that Next currently has a low barrier to entry / learning curve compared to other D&D editions. At ~$150 AUD for the core books, I'd say that price is currently the biggest entry barrier. Again, that's not out of line against previous D&D versions, but it's way higher than a lot of other full games. After paying international shipping, Dungeon World cost me $32 AUD (and I got the PDF instantly to tide me over until my book arrived). FATE Core cost me something like $28 (and I got the PDF instantly etc). I got both large full-color Dresden Files RPG books for $80.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 05:33
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:At ~$150 AUD for the core books, I'd say that price is currently the biggest entry barrier Maybe if you completely disregard the free basic rules and super cheap Beginner's Set.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 05:37
|
|
|
moths posted:And also congratulations on the mini! She's a legitimate legend of D&D and having her in mini form is cool. Especially with a story that isn't "I went to the store and dropped dollars." I am just glad I was fast enough to win. I also had a choice between here and Bahamut I picked her because I would get more use out of Tiamat.  Plus it's a pretty cool mini so I look forward to it arriving. My only shame is that I don't have a ton of use for it. I play online so I can't actually use it in game. Still it's cool looking and I am glad I won it and eagerly await it's arrival. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Dec 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 05:51
|
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:Maybe if you completely disregard the free basic rules and super cheap Beginner's Set. Yeah, sorry I forgot to mention that instead of being around 5 times the price of (eg) Dungeon World like the full version, the D&D starter set with the cut-down rules is priced roughly the same as (eg) Dungeon World. It was completely unfair of me to compare the price of a full game to the price of another full game. MonsterEnvy posted:I am just glad I was fast enough to win. I also had a choice between here and Bahamut I picked her because I would get more use out of Tiamat. Man, that is a nice looking mini. Who the gently caress would want Bahamut instead of that? You get, like, 4 more heads. e: Do you know which Tiamat the mini is based on? It wasn't the cartoon, was it? The heads look very similar to the various chromatic dragons in the 2e MM and I'm not sure if the AD&D depiction was all that similar. Either way, that's a drat nice thing to win 
Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Dec 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 05:53
|
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:Maybe if you completely disregard the free basic rules and super cheap Beginner's Set. See, comments like this are one of those things that get people to dogpile on you mostly because its a counter argument that doesn't really do much to support your argument in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 05:56
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:Man, that is a nice looking mini. Who the gently caress would want Bahamut instead of that? You get, like, 4 more heads.  kingcom posted:See, comments like this are one of those things that get people to dogpile on you mostly because its a counter argument that doesn't really do much to support your argument in the first place. Wait this comment seems like it was directed at me, did you think you were quoting me, or does this guy get flack on this thread as well? MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Dec 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 05:58
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Well Bahamut looks pretty sweet too. Yeah, neat but pretty generic. It's not often you'll get something that's just so loving D&D like that Tiamat.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:01
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:e: Do you know which Tiamat the mini is based on? It wasn't the cartoon, was it? The heads look very similar to the various chromatic dragons in the 2e MM and I'm not sure if the AD&D depiction was all that similar. Either way, that's a drat nice thing to win It's the Tiamat for Tyranny of Dragons the 5e adventure path. More or less based on this image. (Though I think the mini is a bit smaller in comparison to medium creatures though still much larger then them as it is supposed to be gargantuan.)  The mini may also be compatible with their Attack Wing game. (Though I don't know for sure) the X wing like game.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:06
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:It's the Tiamat for Tyranny of Dragons the 5e adventure path. Neat. The Attack Wing stuff has special bases like Wings/Sails of Glory. If it's anything like those games (which I think it is) you can stick whatever actual miniature you like on the base (or no miniature at all) and it'll be fine.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:13
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:Neat. The D&D Attack Wing game is just the D&D version of the Star Trek Attack Wing / X-Wing game.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:23
|
|
|
Gerdalti posted:I know there's a lot of Next hate around, but I'd like to offer a simple opinion to the contrary. It has a low barrier of entry if you were already a TRPG/D&D player. Otherwise there's still a lot of cruft that could be less complicated, such as attributes vs attribute modifiers, attacker rolling to beat the defender vs saving throws, calculation of saving throw DCs, when and how to apply proficiency, and SPELLS SPELLS SPELLS. And part of this is the way the book is written, which is in itself because of how D&D books have always been written - there isn't an extensive sample of play that slowly layers on each concept as if you were running a person through a tutorial. It just throws you into the deep end of the first half of the book being all about character creation, and when you finally get to the Adventuring chapter, it assumes that you actually want to use every single rule such overland travel time and marching order and light sources.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:24
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Well Bahamut looks pretty sweet too. I actually really don't like this Bahamut, I think he's looked way better in other artworks and such. The Tiamat is really rad though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:26
|
|
|
Bahamut is supposed to be both Platinum and a good guy right? Because that looks like an evil dragon with tin scales.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:38
|
|
|
goldjas posted:I actually really don't like this Bahamut, I think he's looked way better in other artworks and such. The Tiamat is really rad though. Yeah, that's my exact feeling about that mini. It's a neat dragon mini. It could be of any dragon. Nothing about it screams "I am the counterpart of that  thing over there with 5 heads and weird looking wings".
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:40
|
|
|
S.J. posted:The D&D Attack Wing game is just the D&D version of the Star Trek Attack Wing / X-Wing game. Does this mean you could have the enterprise or a star destroyer fight godzilla sized gnolls
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:41
|
|
|
Mormon Star Wars posted:Does this mean you could have the enterprise or a star destroyer fight godzilla sized gnolls There's no loving way you're allowed to have that much fun. Don't correct me if I wrong, I'm broke as gently caress right now
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:42
|
|
|
Mormon Star Wars posted:Does this mean you could have the enterprise or a star destroyer fight godzilla sized gnolls No, the different games use different formulas to determine costs and use different rules specific to their settings. The basics are compatible but I certainly wouldn't bother. e: ^^^ don't worry, there's No Fun Allowed here
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:43
|
|
|
Here are a few images of both dragons from some different angles.     Chaltab posted:Bahamut is supposed to be both Platinum and a good guy right? Because that looks like an evil dragon with tin scales.  I think you could argue he is fairly platinum colored. Won't argue about the evil looking thing though. Though lots of metallic dragons look pretty evil. Guess they chose this color because normally he looks too silver.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 01:21 |
|
|
AlphaDog posted:There's no loving way you're allowed to have that much fun. I know along with dragons you can have ground minis like Gnolls and Stone Giants fight as well. I don't really know how the rules work. I know you can download them for free, but I missed the trivia question that would have let me win the Attack Wing starter set for free so I don't care too much. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Dec 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2014 06:53
|
|