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I'm still trying to figure out where McDonald's fits into this. Do they even have tomatoes on most of their popular burgers?
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Apr 13, 2019 11:34
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Did a horde of Fishmac alts suddenly invade the thread or something?
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Apr 13, 2019 11:44
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https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/chinese-hacking-steals-billions-u-s-businesses-turn-a-blind-eye/ America companies have been letting China hack them for two decades out of fear of losing money in the market or being punished be China for saying anything. When Google announced it had been hacked, it was actually one of 30 something companies, but every single other company was too scared to say anything. 
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Apr 13, 2019 14:55
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QuarkJets posted:Organic produce has always been a pseudoscientific con job It's also a huge money-maker for the industry that revolves around certifying things as organic. It's incredibly expensive and difficult to obtain and maintain organic certification, to the point that a lot of producers who do farm organically -- particularly the ones who focus more on producing an extremely high quality product first, rather than doing the bare minimum possible to obtain the organic label for marketing reasons -- simply cannot afford the money or hassle involved to actually call themselves organic.
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Apr 13, 2019 15:16
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PT6A posted:It's also a huge money-maker for the industry that revolves around certifying things as organic. It's incredibly expensive and difficult to obtain and maintain organic certification, to the point that a lot of producers who do farm organically -- particularly the ones who focus more on producing an extremely high quality product first, rather than doing the bare minimum possible to obtain the organic label for marketing reasons -- simply cannot afford the money or hassle involved to actually call themselves organic. Places that do farm organically, shouldn't. No one should be lashing their farms to the bizarre dictates of pre world war 2 semi-spiritual theories of Agriculture.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:36
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Liquid Communism posted:I've managed people in your position, and yeah, your manager knew what was up. He was just willing to let it slide because gently caress it, they aren't paying him enough to care either. This is possible, even probable, but he was a decent guy working brutally long hours for a horrible company and I genuinely felt bad about that because he specifically had not been a tool. He hurt his knee and had to walk with a cane, and even after that they still made him work ten hours a day, six days a week (store closure on Sunday was obligatory then due to state law) and gave him no time to rest, heal or rehab. I suppose that I didn't want to be ungrateful towards the one slightly bright spot in the sea of poo poo.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:42
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PT6A posted:It's also a huge money-maker for the industry that revolves around certifying things as organic. It's incredibly expensive and difficult to obtain and maintain organic certification, to the point that a lot of producers who do farm organically -- particularly the ones who focus more on producing an extremely high quality product first, rather than doing the bare minimum possible to obtain the organic label for marketing reasons -- simply cannot afford the money or hassle involved to actually call themselves organic. I'd like to point out that "producing an extremely high quality product" is not well-aligned to the rules of organic certification, and it's common for farmers who want to stick to the layman principles of organic agriculture (e.g. agricultural products that are superior to what's commonly available, in taste/texture/etc) to get frustrated by the actual legal rules surrounding organic certification (which are more about protecting entrenched corporations that don't have superior agricultural products but rely on woo to make it sound like they do)
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Apr 14, 2019 22:37
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QuarkJets posted:I'm having trouble following the claim here; grocery stores want to maximize profit margins, so they'll buy whatever gives them the highest profit and it doesn't really matter whether that's a delicious tomato that turns to mush 1 day after it's taken from the shelf or a tomato that tastes like piss but doesn't go bad for a month, because people are going to buy whatever happens to work for them. You're suggesting that marketing plays a huge role but I don't think that I've ever seen tomato-based marketing, so really all we could be talking about is shelf placement, right? But I've also never really seen tomatoes given significantly better shelf placement than other tomatoes; they all tend to be on the same stand, and if anything tomatoes on the vine tend to be closest to the entry of the produce section but also tend to be better. Not all advertisements are full commercials devoted specifically to that product alone. Tomato marketing would be the signs in the stores, on the packaging, and in advertisements run by grocery stores. If you pick up one of the weekly specials papers, they'll say stuff like "vine-ripened tomatoes- x amount." Tomatoes get marketed. Everything gets marketed. Welcome to capitalism. And Owls point is that if someone hears their friend talking up some heirloom tomatoes they got at a farmstand, and then they see a big display of heirloom tomatoes at Walmart, they're more likely to buy them (probably for more than the regular tomatoes) because they associate 'heirloom' with quality. Walmart is not doing anything you have to do to produce a quality tomato; they're just marketing their usual product with whatever terms are popular now to make people think it's better, and people are buying it because placebo effect and nothing better to make a direct comparison against. And there are plenty of holes you could pick in that, but none of them are "but no one markets, tomatoes!" or "but why are people buying lovely tomatoes if they have the option of good ones?"
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Apr 14, 2019 23:15
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there wolf posted:Not all advertisements are full commercials devoted specifically to that product alone. Tomato marketing would be the signs in the stores, on the packaging, and in advertisements run by grocery stores. If you pick up one of the weekly specials papers, they'll say stuff like "vine-ripened tomatoes- x amount." Tomatoes get marketed. Everything gets marketed. Welcome to capitalism. What you seem to be missing is that the tomatoes are "bad" because "good" tomatoes are only available for a short time once or twice a year in each region they're grown. So "heirloom" or "organic" or "grundlestank" or whatever bullshit term gets applied never mattered to the tomatoes being good, and most of the year you have to have the "bad" tomatoes. This is the reason God invented making tomato sauces and pastes because those things are usable year round.
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Apr 14, 2019 23:26
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there wolf posted:Not all advertisements are full commercials devoted specifically to that product alone. Tomato marketing would be the signs in the stores, on the packaging, and in advertisements run by grocery stores. If you pick up one of the weekly specials papers, they'll say stuff like "vine-ripened tomatoes- x amount." Tomatoes get marketed. Everything gets marketed. Welcome to capitalism. Stores sell many kinds of tomatoes, and they advertise that fact, yes. And to the average person, who's never even had a farmstand tomato, the marketing is accurately establishing a quality hierarchy for that store; "these tomatoes are our premium tomatoes, so they're labeled 'heirloom'". Nobody who has had a farmstand tomato expects to find them in the grocery store year-round, and everyone else has no idea what they're missing anyway so you're not really fooling them, either. What I think Owl is trying to claim is that the grocery store is actually trying to use marketing to make their worst tomatoes look like they're the same, or just as good as, their best tomatoes. But I don't see how that can possibly be true. I've never seen any kind of marketing that tries to do that. And if you've been to the store and tried their tomatoes before, then you already know what they taste like. Are you able to be tricked into believing that lettuce actually tastes like strawberries? Probably not. QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Apr 14, 2019 |
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Apr 14, 2019 23:40
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I think that they do a similar thing with a lot of breakfast cereals. I've been told by reliable sources that the Raisin Bran (tm) in the big purple box, for example, is the exact same as the raisin bran that comes in a big; the only difference is that the former has a much higher price per ounce. I've found it impossible to find a decent tomato that isn't grown in next-door's garden, so I may just resort to using some other tomato product on sandwiches. A genuinely good tomato is a wonderful accompaniment, but getting a "genuinely good" one is the tricky bit.
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Apr 14, 2019 23:43
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JustJeff88 posted:I think that they do a similar thing with a lot of breakfast cereals. I've been told by reliable sources that the Raisin Bran (tm) in the big purple box, for example, is the exact same as the raisin bran that comes in a big; the only difference is that the former has a much higher price per ounce. All the stores in my area have dropped their generic store brand big bag cereals and it's loving bullshit. All that's left is Malt-o-meal and that's priced like a name brand now. Went from being able to get a 28oz bag of cereal for under three bucks to the only options being nearly twice that.
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Apr 14, 2019 23:51
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ryonguy posted:All the stores in my area have dropped their generic store brand big bag cereals and it's loving bullshit. All that's left is Malt-o-meal and that's priced like a name brand now. Went from being able to get a 28oz bag of cereal for under three bucks to the only options being nearly twice that. I believe you, and I'm sure that it was done to be more profitable with no regard for the consumer because  .
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Apr 14, 2019 23:52
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Only one thing to do in that situation: acknowledge that cereals are garbage and embrace the egg.
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Apr 15, 2019 00:49
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QuarkJets posted:Stores sell many kinds of tomatoes, and they advertise that fact, yes. And to the average person, who's never even had a farmstand tomato, the marketing is accurately establishing a quality hierarchy for that store; "these tomatoes are our premium tomatoes, so they're labeled 'heirloom'". Nobody who has had a farmstand tomato expects to find them in the grocery store year-round, and everyone else has no idea what they're missing anyway so you're not really fooling them, either. This isn't rocket science or some big secret conspiracy, once a word becomes a desirable thing it gets plastered everywhere. Look how many things at the grocery store are labeled "organic" with that being meaningless, or things that would never have gluten being labeled gluten free because that is trendy. Or the existence of ancient grain cheerios. or the way KFC will have signs up telling you what local farm the chicken comes from because it's locally grown. Once you establish a hierarchy that heirloom is labeled premium then everyone will label their thing premium.
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Apr 15, 2019 00:57
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JustJeff88 posted:I believe you, and I'm sure that it was done to be more profitable with no regard for the consumer because I know, I impotently cussed out one of the stores on Twitter over it.
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Apr 15, 2019 01:54
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I mean, the bag cereal is a different brand than the box kind. Usually. There's Kellogs stuff now in the bag, and I don't know if it works out to be less per ounce, but that comes down to it being a bulk offering. I think the bag packaging is probably better when it comes to waste since you get rid of the cardboard box in the equation, so that's nice I guess. Of course, a lot of that generic and/or private label stuff comes off the same factory floor as the name brand, but that's capitalism (And harmless, go buy generic and save money.) Although in the case of the cheap private label stuff, the stores actually are incentivised to push you towards that particular cheap option because they make more off the sale than name brand goods. Also stores are absolutely not labeling non heirloom tomatoes as heirloom tomatoes, that word means a particular thing (Old varieties of a plant, many from places that were once behind the iron curtain. There's specific cultivars you can call heirloom, and on tomatoes they look different anyways. Organic is a meaningless descriptor, but it's also a legally regulated one, so stores aren't taking regular tomatoes and labeling them as organic. Gluten free did get plastered everywhere though, and I bitched about labeling most of my stuff gluten free when they started pushing it, but prices didn't go up because of it. It was just the same stuff they always carry but with a fancy tag that lets you know that, in fact, there are no dastardly wheats hiding in this jar of roasted peanuts. Or these marshmallows.
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Apr 15, 2019 02:21
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JustJeff88 posted:I think that they do a similar thing with a lot of breakfast cereals. I've been told by reliable sources that the Raisin Bran (tm) in the big purple box, for example, is the exact same as the raisin bran that comes in a big; the only difference is that the former has a much higher price per ounce. Oh yeah, this happens all the time. There are other costs associated with these things than just raw production of the items. Raisin Bran has even had TV commercials! Really though, just buy whatever you like the most. That is the only way to let them know that people want these things. I buy plenty of cereal in the bag because mostly they are the same as the more expensive and I eat it regularly enough to justify the amount. Sometimes good things go away if people don't support them.  Ovaltine Classic Malt flavor, gone from my region too soon.
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Apr 15, 2019 02:58
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:This isn't rocket science or some big secret conspiracy, once a word becomes a desirable thing it gets plastered everywhere. Look how many things at the grocery store are labeled "organic" with that being meaningless, or things that would never have gluten being labeled gluten free because that is trendy. Or the existence of ancient grain cheerios. or the way KFC will have signs up telling you what local farm the chicken comes from because it's locally grown. Once you establish a hierarchy that heirloom is labeled premium then everyone will label their thing premium. Agreed And you think this is a problem?
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Apr 15, 2019 11:05
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DrNutt posted:Only one thing to do in that situation: acknowledge that cereals are garbage and embrace the egg. LOOK WHO'S IN THE POCKET OF BIG AG
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Apr 15, 2019 15:42
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Did you know that Brown Eggs are different than White Eggs? 
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Apr 15, 2019 16:20
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QuarkJets posted:Agreed QuarkJets posted:Stores sell many kinds of tomatoes, and they advertise that fact, yes. And to the average person, who's never even had a farmstand tomato, the marketing is accurately establishing a quality hierarchy for that store; "these tomatoes are our premium tomatoes, so they're labeled 'heirloom'". Nobody who has had a farmstand tomato expects to find them in the grocery store year-round, and everyone else has no idea what they're missing anyway so you're not really fooling them, either. Oocc is right to say that if "farmstand tomato" implied that kind of fresh flavorful seasonal not-long-lasting tomato, companies would run conveyer belts of what they already have through farm stands and slap a misleading label on top. (More realistically they'd just slap the label on and change nothing at all.) The problem is not that the tomato is different based on the economics of production and shipping and storage, the problem is tricking people about the differences. And even if someone "has no idea what they're missing", it's bad to trick them.
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Apr 16, 2019 00:03
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Dylan16807 posted:
You already can though. What's the problem supposed to be again?
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Apr 16, 2019 00:08
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fishmech posted:You already can though. What's the problem supposed to be again?
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Apr 16, 2019 00:41
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Dylan16807 posted:Oh? What words do I look for, then? I don't know dude, what's your actual preferred cultivar and source area? You can go look for that, just as you can rely on the labels on apple bins to tell you what cultivar they are. Do I have to point out again that terms like "heirloom" or "organic" have minimal at best connections with "tastes good"? https://njaes.rutgers.edu/tomato-varieties/ here's a handy guide if you're not sure what you like.
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Apr 16, 2019 00:48
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Arguments like this, I'm so glad my mother is Italian and I grew up with basically everyone around me growing tomatoes of some sort. Thing is, they're better but if you're making sauces with them, you don't really notice it. Now cut in salads are night and day to most store bought stuff, but overall for dishes and the like...eh...it's not really noticeable.
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Apr 16, 2019 01:22
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I don't know if the "tomato problem" is even solvable. You're never going to have great produce available out of season whenever you want it; it's not some grand failing of capitalism, it's just reality. There's no way for that to happen and have the resulting product be affordable.
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Apr 16, 2019 03:34
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PT6A posted:I don't know if the "tomato problem" is even solvable. You're never going to have great produce available out of season whenever you want it; it's not some grand failing of capitalism, it's just reality. There's no way for that to happen and have the resulting product be affordable. Part of the solution might be to focus on introducing people to different fruits and vegetables that are ripe throughout the year rather than relying on monocultures of lovely shelf-stable versions of a few core foods. But that's exactly the kind of problem that capitalism can't really solve.
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Apr 16, 2019 04:14
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pseudanonymous posted:Part of the solution might be to focus on introducing people to different fruits and vegetables that are ripe throughout the year rather than relying on monocultures of lovely shelf-stable versions of a few core foods. But that's exactly the kind of problem that capitalism can't really solve. This isn't a problem that needs solving. Ranting about monocultures when your grocery store clearly has quite a few varieties of all the popular fruits and vegetables is kinda hillarious.
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Apr 16, 2019 04:22
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Eating seasonally is a pretty large adjustment from what most people live. It's very healthy but it's certainly not easy. And sometimes ya just want off season produce. Edit : I mean there are times during the years it ends up Jesus this is just so many loving greens I need to use.
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Apr 16, 2019 06:42
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Dylan16807 posted:When people perceive certain labels as implying quality, going out of your way to make those perceptions less accurate is a bad thing. Even if you're not lying, it's bad to actively and deliberately take advantage of customer confusion to get more sales or better profit margins. How are they less accurate? Slapping an "heirloom" label on a tomato doesn't make it good, it just denotes that it's a variety that has been around for a long time. That's not inaccurate labeling unless it's literally a new kind of tomato being mislabeled. The association with quality comes from consumer experience; usually the heirloom tomatoes at the supermarket actually are better than the other varieties offered at the same supermarket; this is also not deceptive So what deception is actually happening here? You believe that the grocery store is tricking people into buying old refrigerated tomatoes while imagining that they're a freshly-picked farmstand tomato because they committed the grave crime of using an Heirloom label? That makes no sense at all. The consumer already knows what the grocery store tomatoes taste like, relabeling the tomatoes at the supermarket in just the right way isn't going to suddenly steal a ton of business from your local organic farm.
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Apr 16, 2019 07:23
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PT6A posted:I don't know if the "tomato problem" is even solvable. You're never going to have great produce available out of season whenever you want it; it's not some grand failing of capitalism, it's just reality. There's no way for that to happen and have the resulting product be affordable.
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Apr 16, 2019 07:59
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i am harry posted:https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/chinese-hacking-steals-billions-u-s-businesses-turn-a-blind-eye/ Wow, if there ever was a worrying degree of shortsightedness.... If it happened to US companies it will probably have happened to all other companies too. Probably explains some of these: https://news.usni.org/2015/10/27/chinas-military-built-with-cloned-weapons Edit: drat Frontline is good but depressing. I should not have stayed on the site. Do not watch "Left behind America". It is loving depressing. Mr Shiny Pants fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Apr 20, 2019 |
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Apr 20, 2019 06:20
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PT6A posted:I don't know if the "tomato problem" is even solvable. You're never going to have great produce available out of season whenever you want it; it's not some grand failing of capitalism, it's just reality. There's no way for that to happen and have the resulting product be affordable. The 'tomato problem' is simply that people are so disconnected from the source of their food that they no longer realize that vegetables have best seasons and those produced out of season usually require efforts that make an inferior product. Hothouse vegetables were a delicacy for nobles once upon a time, not because they were good, but because being able to have them at all out of season was a sign of wealth.
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Apr 20, 2019 09:09
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BrandorKP posted:Eating seasonally is a pretty large adjustment from what most people live. It's very healthy but it's certainly not easy. And sometimes ya just want off season produce. What specifically about it is healthy?
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Apr 20, 2019 09:32
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:What specifically about it is healthy? One ends up eating so many vegetables and greens. It drives one's cooking. In order to not waste the box one has to cook/eat it all. They give one more veg than one would just buy at the store and it hijacks the meal plan by making it more plant based. Which is like the best thing one can do to thier diet.
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Apr 20, 2019 14:29
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I like kumatos and they seem to have more consistent flavour for most of the year, although I suppose that's partly because Mexico has a longer growing season for them.
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Apr 20, 2019 16:42
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Paradoxish posted:Not to pick on Sydin too much, but look at how much in this post is focused on "quality" and "organic." Whole Foods' entire business model is based around using higher prices to convince people that what they sell is better, even though there's strong evidence to suggest that there are probably few (if any) benefits to things that are labeled organic. I'd also point to how much outrage there was over a few studies showing that organic food probably doesn't have health benefits. Going back to the post that started this derail: Whole Foods does specifically rely on technically accurate but generally misunderstood labeling to be able to sell overpriced products. This is why they were fighting so far to get California to pass that GMO labeling law. This comes from their roots in the hippie natural/health store movement. Hell, I just checked and apparently they still carry homeopathic remedies. I don't think this is a case of customers realizing something is good, then companies co-opting the labeling for that good thing so sell sub-par knockoffs. It's more about people with a lack of understanding of what is healthier/of higher quality being an especially ripe market to chase. There was never a period where "organic" produce was any better than the non-organic alternative, there was just a lot of misinformation out there that made people believe that was the case.
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Apr 20, 2019 21:52
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LanceHunter posted:Hell, I just checked and apparently they still carry homeopathic remedies. In California this is absolutely the case and it feels like any grocery store trying to be high end does the same. It's...a thing, alright.
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Apr 20, 2019 23:07
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I have seen those homeopathic remedies in california in every grocery store I been to, it's a thing here.
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Apr 21, 2019 21:29
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