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TheKingofSprings posted:The Jedi being forbidden to love always bugged me watching the PT. That's intended to be stupid, yeah? Love is the main reason Vader snaps back at the end of Return. Yes.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:02
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rear end Catchcum posted:I don't even know why this is such a debate. There is video footage of George and two other guys who worked on the prequels, I don't know their names, and George says how maybe they tried to do too much but it was too late to take certain plot lines out because it would effect other stuff because at that point it was too woven together. What is this referring to? Or are you just saying this is evidence that the prequels are bad?
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Jan 24, 2016 00:03
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TheKingofSprings posted:The Jedi being forbidden to love always bugged me watching the PT. That's intended to be stupid, yeah? Love is the main reason Vader snaps back at the end of Return. Yes. Anakin's love for his mother and his wife was unhealthy in some ways, but the Jedi's fear of that kind of thing lead them in the wrong direction and made them ill-equipped to help Anakin work through it in a healthy way.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:03
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TheKingofSprings posted:The Jedi being forbidden to love always bugged me watching the PT. That's intended to be stupid, yeah? Love is the main reason Vader snaps back at the end of Return. We're given conflicting views here. On one hand Anakin being attached to people led to his downfall but he also saved Lukes life and killed Palpatine because of it.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:07
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Beeez posted:Yes. Anakin's love for his mother and his wife was unhealthy in some ways, but the Jedi's fear of that kind of thing lead them in the wrong direction and made them ill-equipped to help Anakin work through it in a healthy way. At the same time, attempting to tackle it resulted in the fall of the republic and the rise of Hitler. Literally the entirety of their woes would have been solved by heeding Yoda's warning, dropping him back off at tatooine (maybe buy his mom back and put them on Naboo, what with being a flipping War Hero), then Mace Windu, Jedi in the process of tackling his light and dark sides, ends Palpatine and saves the republic. Allowing an exception to their neutral no-emotional-baggage code results in mass genocides and fascist rule, kind of reasonable for people to take from this "the jedi were okay, but they broke their own dogma and thats why they were slain" instead of "Jedi dogma doomed the galaxy" Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 00:08
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Tezzor posted:FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL *does not elucidate any reasoning* *is screaming this while baring his teeth and looking under his eyebrows and he has werewolf eyes and is shot in dark red* *just strangled a pregnant woman, is trying to kill his best friend, and murdered dozens of children*
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Jan 24, 2016 00:09
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Martman posted:Exactly, he thinks the Jedi are so bad that he'd rather do all that stuff than align with them. Quite the overreaction to a room full of ineffectual monks. He should really try suppressing those emotions.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:10
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Neurolimal posted:At the same time, attempting to tackle it resulted in the fall of the republic and the rise of Hitler. Literally the entirety of their woes would have been solved by heeding Yoda's warning, dropping him back off at tatooine (maybe buy his mom back and put them on Naboo, what with being a flipping War Hero), then Mace Windu, Jedi in the process of tackling his light and dark sides, ends Palpatine and saves the republic. No Anakin means no Palpatine revealing himself which means Mace Windu probably drops during Order 66 with the rest. That or Palpatine doesn't bother with the act and drops him proper.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:12
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Tezzor posted:FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL *does not elucidate any reasoning* *is screaming this while baring his teeth and looking under his eyebrows and he has werewolf eyes and is shot in dark red* *just strangled a pregnant woman, is trying to kill his best friend, and murdered dozens of children* I don't know if you saw that movie but in revenge of the sith right before then the Jedi attempt a violent coup d'etat and obi wan is on an assassination mission to kill him. Before that too the Jedi council seditiously asks Anakin to spy on Palaptine. Also if you ever get a chance to see attack of the clones - I recommend it if is a good but not great movie - there is an important scene when Padme falls out of the troop transport and obi wan tells Anakin to forget about her. This is an important scene. Also it is clear from Anakins pov that Padme is working with the Jedi which is of course the ultimate adulterous act euphronius fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 00:12
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Martman posted:Exactly, he thinks the Jedi are so bad that he'd rather do all that stuff than align with them. Executing a fascist leader responsible for a war, a genocide, and multiple assassinations: bad Executing a fascist order devoted to neutrality and acting as police (entirely under the control of the people who they protect via the senate) who chooses to execute a fascist leader about to destroy two young burgeoning new races, the senate, and oppress the galaxy: good? Anakin's motivation can be argued with Padme (and the fact that he's insane), but the "FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL" line is just bad, [in my opinion]
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Jan 24, 2016 00:15
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euphronius posted:I don't know if you saw that movie but in revenge of the sith right before then the Jedi attempt a violent coup d'etat and obi wan is on an assassination mission to kill him. euphronius posted:Before that too the Jedi council seditiously asks Anakin to spy on Palaptine. euphronius posted:there is an important scene when Padme falls out of the troop transport and obi wan tells Anakin to forget about her. This is an important scene.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:17
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Again if you watch the movie - it's on amazon you can get the blue ray- Palpatine is not a cackling evil monster when Windu commits his treasonous coup d'etat.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:19
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euphronius posted:Again if you watch the movie - it's on amazon you can get the blue ray- Palpatine is not a cackling evil monster when Windu commits his treasonous coup d'etat. At no point is Palpatine not a cackling evil monster.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:21
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The Jedi in the PT are never shown as bad or corrupted, they are just ineffective/incompetent and ignorant to the dangers right infront of them. If anything they should have taken more drastic actions sooner and the parallels in the whole story to the Weimar Republic are quite obvious if you wanna go down the whole "how to deal with a facist takeover" angle.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:21
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Steve2911 posted:At no point is Palpatine not a cackling evil monster. Well no now that's just not true. Also the important thing is Anakins point of view and from his pov Palaptine is clearly not so.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:23
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Steve2911 posted:At no point is Palpatine not a cackling evil monster. Actually, in most of his scenes he is affecting the persona as kindly old Chancellor Palpatine, not the hooded magical sadist Darth Sidious.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:23
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I think they're bad in the way they train Anakin to be a rampant murderer while also being complete dicks to him. I mean, there's stupidity there too, but it goes a little beyond that. They're guardians of the status quo, not neutrality, and Anakin comes to hate the status quo.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:24
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The scene where the Jedi hypocritically decide to depose Palpatine could easily have come after Anakin's revelation that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Maybe it could even have been rearranged in editing to make them look better, if that was the desired effect. That it doesn't and wasn't is important.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:27
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Bongo Bill posted:You're saying that they are entirely morally upstanding because their enemies are evil (which they are, don't misunderstand me on that point). That isn't how morality works. It's not even how fiction works. What bad things? I cannot think of any Jedi except Anakin deliberately doing a bad thing. In an action movie, killing enemy combat robots that are usually trying to kill you is not a bad thing. Killing a mercenary assassin who is actively trying to kill you is not a bad thing. Generally acting indifferent to the deaths of faceless background redshirts while actively in a battle is not a bad thing. I don't see Qui Gon viciously torturing Watto with Force Lightning until he gives up the boy. I am not shown any scenes of Yoda killing droids out of any sadistic motive. I am not shown Obi-Wan pointing and laughing as clone troopers eat it. I am not shown Samuel L. Jackson teabagging Jango Fett's headless body and making the you can't see me hand motion at his son. Where are these scenes? Where are the visuals to support this imbecilic hypothesis apparently everyone seems to believe? Lucas is not subtle with these things. Anakin looks like Gomer Pyle from the end of the first act of Full Metal Jacket if he was standing in a dark cave illuminated by lava and also possessed by a demon. Palpatine looks like Dracula's mean uncle in a black hood cackling and shooting lightning at people. Why does no Jedi appear at any point to look like deviant art vomit if they are using the dark side and are a bad guy
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Jan 24, 2016 00:33
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Lord Krangdar posted:The scene where the Jedi hypocritically decide to depose Palpatine could easily have come after Anakin's revelation that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Maybe it could even have been rearranged in editing to make them look better, if that was the desired effect. That it doesn't and wasn't is important. Hypocrisy doesn't immediately make someone wrong. The Jedi are naturally fascist, but they serve an important role in the republics' system of checks and balances; they serve as the Supreme Court to the Chancellor's President and the Senate's....Senate. it's just that Sotomayor is ripped and had a lightsaber to whack anyone who tries to pull an Andrew Jackson. It's hypocritical that the fascist order attempt to execute the chancellor for being too fascist, but that's literally their appointed role.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:33
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In fact Palpatine in the prequels is only a cackling monster arguably when he force lightenings Mace out a window and fights Yoda in the senate. He is either not cackling nor a monster in every other scene iirc. He is usually quote sedate and officious in his monster form.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:34
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Neurolimal posted:Hypocrisy doesn't immediately make someone wrong. The Jedi are naturally fascist, but they serve an important role in the republics' system of checks and balances; they serve as the Supreme Court to the Chancellor's President and the Senate's....Senate. it's just that Sotomayor is ripped and had a lightsaber to whack anyone who tries to pull an Andrew Jackson. Remember we are talking about from the point of view of Anakin.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:35
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I don't subscribe to the notion that Obi-Wan is bad or evil or hypocritical or whatever. He's just a poor teacher to a jedi outsider and not good at getting through to people; Obi says something, Ani doesn't listen, Obi is proven right. The death stick scene is most apparent of this; he knows what will help the drug dealer, but he cannot emotionally relate (being a jedi), so he brute forces his way to the answer (tricking him into not selling dangerous opiates to the masses). Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 00:35
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Neurolimal posted:Thanks for the correction, I don't usually read/listen to Zizek When have I ever insulted anyone for having an opinion about a movie? Someone can't be said to be 'wrong' for liking or disliking a film -- this is why posters like Tezzor are so obnoxious, declaring others to be "crazy" or an "apologist" for enjoying something. However, people are often not being honest with themselves about why they had the reaction they did -- why they made the 'reading' they made, even if subconsciously. That part isn't always easy, and requires some degree of self-awareness and analytical work. A lot of people share their opinion looking for validation rather than self-knowledge, which is rather boring to everyone else. To use your terrible video game analogy, if someone says the guns "don't feel right" and attribute it to the game's framerate, but the game runs at flawless 60fps, they aren't wrong about disliking the way the guns feel -- but they also aren't being accurate when they describe why they had that reaction. Maybe it's because of something like the turn speed or recoil or whatever, or maybe it's because they gun animation and sound doesn't line up with what they think that gun "should" look and sound like (ideology), but it's their responsibility to figure that out and communicate it. What they shouldn't do is get upset and claim that their "opinion" isn't being treated fairly because someone pointed out their inconsistent reasoning.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:36
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Neurolimal posted:I don't subscribe to the notion that Obi-Wan is bad or evil or hypocritical or whatever. He's just a poor teacher to a jedi outsider and not good at getting through to people; Obi says something, Ani doesn't listen, Obi is proven right. From the point to view of Anakin he is a traitorous assassin.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:36
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euphronius posted:From the point to view of Anakin he is a traitorous assassin. I'm not actually arguing about the discussion between you and Tezzor, rather the tone used in a lot of readings ITT. At least with those last two posts. Actually commenting on the current argument; like I said I can totally see why Anakin, Insane and In Love and Insanely In Love person might see the guy in the way of (in his crazy eyes)saving his wife might be bad. I just don't think it's well established enough for him to believe the Jedi are evil. He gets tricked into saving Hitler and keeps going in spite of that because he has nothing left but a hope that Wizard Hitler makes good on his promise of saving his (not actually in danger, he's crazy) wife. Palpatine doesn't actually make a reasonable argument against the jedi to a point where I can imagine even Crazy Orphan Anakin say "well, from my point of view, I consider the jedi to be most depraved, ho-hum." I guess this is more a critique of the dialogue.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:46
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Would have been cool if Struzan did a traditional one sheet to fit in with the other episodes like this:
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Jan 24, 2016 00:49
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I understand what you are saying. Two small points. Anakin firmly believes Padme is in danger and also he strongly conflates her with his mother whom he didn't save so it's a little stronger than that. Also Anakin does not believe in democracy so of course he aligns more Palps. Replying to neurolimital if it's not clear.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:50
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Reminder that arguing that the prequels portray the Jedi and the Republic as flawed institutions that sometimes act hypocritically in ways that led to their downfall is not the same as then going on to say that the prequels are saying that Palpatine and the Empire are therefore Good and Correct and that murdering them all and instituting fascism was actually justified. The message of Hamlet isn't that Claudius is right. Okay I don't like the Prequels enough to feel comfortable earnestly comparing them to Shakespeare. But you see what I'm getting at here.  EDIT: oh wow this rules teagone posted:Would have been cool if Struzan did a traditional one sheet to fit in with the other episodes like this:
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Jan 24, 2016 00:50
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euphronius posted:Again if you watch the movie - it's on amazon you can get the blue ray- Palpatine is not a cackling evil monster when Windu commits his treasonous coup d'etat. Palpatine has dictator powers and has no legal reason to have them anymore and appears to be fighting to not have to give them up. The Jedi know that there is a Sith Lord running around. Anakin tells Mace that Palpatine is this Sith Lord. When they go to confront him and tell him that he can't hold onto illegal power any more, they say he is under arrest in the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, and the Senate will decide his fate. Palpatine growls "I AM the Senate," pulls out a lightsaber and attacks them. Mace is removing a corrupt and evil leader from power and putting him in the hands of the Senate. Mace is not trying to seize power. If you're watching a movie where the President is directing an evil conspiracy, the cops arrest him, and the system impeaches and convicts him, is this a treasonous coup d'etat?
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Jan 24, 2016 00:51
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Yaws posted:We're given conflicting views here. On one hand Anakin being attached to people led to his downfall but he also saved Lukes life and killed Palpatine because of it. Anakin might be trying to get into Padme's
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Jan 24, 2016 00:52
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teagone posted:Would have been cool if Struzan did a traditional one sheet to fit in with the other episodes like this: Why is Han 20 again?
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Jan 24, 2016 00:52
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Steve2911 posted:Why is Han 20 again? Because why the gently caress not?
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Jan 24, 2016 00:54
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Tezzor posted:What bad things? I cannot think of any Jedi except Anakin deliberately doing a bad thing. In an action movie, killing enemy combat robots that are usually trying to kill you is not a bad thing. Killing a mercenary assassin who is actively trying to kill you is not a bad thing. Generally acting indifferent to the deaths of faceless background redshirts while actively in a battle is not a bad thing. I don't see Qui Gon viciously torturing Watto with Force Lightning until he gives up the boy. I am not shown any scenes of Yoda killing droids out of any sadistic motive. I am not shown Obi-Wan pointing and laughing as clone troopers eat it. I am not shown Samuel L. Jackson teabagging Jango Fett's headless body and making the you can't see me hand motion at his son. Where are these scenes? Where are the visuals to support this imbecilic hypothesis apparently everyone seems to believe? Lucas is not subtle with these things. Anakin looks like Gomer Pyle from the end of the first act of Full Metal Jacket if he was standing in a dark cave illuminated by lava and also possessed by a demon. Palpatine looks like Dracula's mean uncle in a black hood cackling and shooting lightning at people. Why does no Jedi appear at any point to look like deviant art vomit if they are using the dark side and are a bad guy The reason is because, as art as in life, evil does not always wear black armor and delight in the suffering of innocents. And again I remind you that having an evil enemy does not make a character good. Bad things the Jedi do include: being "ambassadors" whose purpose is to intimidate the other party; freeing the bare minimum number of slaves because of political complications; brainwashing children; repressing a dude so hard over the course of ten years that he has a nervous breakdown trying to live up to their expectations, then not being able to help him deal with that or even much noticing that it's happening; being huge robo-racists all the time; plotting to overthrow the government they swore to protect; and telling Luke to murder his father. Hypocritical things the Jedi do include: saying that fear leads to the dark side, then being constantly terrified of various phantom menaces; saying that they are guardians of peace, then embedding themselves as the commanders of an army in the middle of a war; saying that they are the guardians of justice. then creating an institution that frees fewer slaves on Tatooine in ten years than Luke Skywalker does in one afternoon; espousing listening to the living Force and speaking of luminous beings rather than crude matter, then relying on a blood-scanning machine to detect destiny; establishing a code of ethics that forbids summarily executing defeated enemies, then attempting to summarily execute a defeated enemy; claiming to follow a philosophy of non-attachment to worldly affairs, then becoming an arm of government used to enforce its interests in worldly affairs; and saying that they're forbidden from having possessions, then living in a palace.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:55
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Tezzor posted:Palpatine has dictator powers and has no legal reason to have them anymore and appears to be fighting to not have to give them up. The Jedi know that there is a Sith Lord running around. Anakin tells Mace that Palpatine is this Sith Lord. When they go to confront him and tell him that he can't hold onto illegal power any more, they say he is under arrest in the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, and the Senate will decide his fate. Palpatine growls "I AM the Senate," pulls out a lightsaber and attacks them. Mace is removing a corrupt and evil leader from power and putting him in the hands of the Senate. Mace is not trying to seize power. If you're watching a movie where the President is directing an evil conspiracy, the cops arrest him, and the system impeaches and convicts him, is this a treasonous coup d'etat? I adopt bongo bills responses on these topics Vvv also that one.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:56
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Tezzor posted:Palpatine has dictator powers and has no legal reason to have them anymore and appears to be fighting to not have to give them up. The Jedi know that there is a Sith Lord running around. Anakin tells Mace that Palpatine is this Sith Lord. When they go to confront him and tell him that he can't hold onto illegal power any more, they say he is under arrest in the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, and the Senate will decide his fate. Palpatine growls "I AM the Senate," pulls out a lightsaber and attacks them. Mace is removing a corrupt and evil leader from power and putting him in the hands of the Senate. Mace is not trying to seize power. If you're watching a movie where the President is directing an evil conspiracy, the cops arrest him, and the system impeaches and convicts him, is this a treasonous coup d'etat? They decide to depose him before they're told he is the Sith Lord who has been pulling the strings the whole time. They just see him as a power-hungry politician, and don't know anything else. They think they're justified in seizing power forcefully because Palpatine seized power first (by turning the democratic process against itself). They're being hypocritical. Also their actions here directly contradict their advice to Anakin about his obsessions with status and control leading him to the dark. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 00:57
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Tezzor posted:What bad things? I cannot think of any Jedi except Anakin deliberately doing a bad thing. In an action movie, killing enemy combat robots that are usually trying to kill you is not a bad thing. Killing a mercenary assassin who is actively trying to kill you is not a bad thing. Generally acting indifferent to the deaths of faceless background redshirts while actively in a battle is not a bad thing. I don't see Qui Gon viciously torturing Watto with Force Lightning until he gives up the boy. I am not shown any scenes of Yoda killing droids out of any sadistic motive. I am not shown Obi-Wan pointing and laughing as clone troopers eat it. I am not shown Samuel L. Jackson teabagging Jango Fett's headless body and making the you can't see me hand motion at his son. Where are these scenes? Where are the visuals to support this imbecilic hypothesis apparently everyone seems to believe? Lucas is not subtle with these things. Anakin looks like Gomer Pyle from the end of the first act of Full Metal Jacket if he was standing in a dark cave illuminated by lava and also possessed by a demon. Palpatine looks like Dracula's mean uncle in a black hood cackling and shooting lightning at people. Why does no Jedi appear at any point to look like deviant art vomit if they are using the dark side and are a bad guy http://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-on-the-lost-missions-yoda-arc Dave Filoni, Supervising Director for The Clone Wars posted:We finally landed on this big story, which in some ways is connected to the Mortis trilogy that we did. It’s kind of the other side of that coin, where Yoda gets directly involved in the bigger questions about the Force. George and I would discuss this story all the time, because it’s Yoda, and it’s very important to him, and I wanted to make sure we got it right. So I was always asking George things about Yoda, how he would behave, what he would do and what he would question. Tezzor, I don't think you understand quite how bad you're making prequel critics as a whole look right now. There are a lot of reasonable people in this thread who don't care for the prequels. Most of them aren't so fanatical in their hatred that they'll argue against the very obvious fact that the prequel Jedi Order is portrayed as a flawed institution which violated its own principles by becoming generals in an immoral and irresponsible war. You are really bad at understanding movies, Tezzor. Really, really, really bad. And you never admit you're wrong, even when proven indisputably so. I'm sure you'll come up with some bizarre explanation for why you're not wrong this time. "George Lucas wasn't really intimately involved with the TCW story process. Dave Filoni didn't really have in-depth discussions with him about Yoda's character and the nature of the Jedi Order during the prequels. It's all part of the grand Lucasian conspiracy that has been going on since 1977, when the evil mastermind George Lucas bamboozled the world into thinking he was the chief creative personality behind Star Wars." Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 00:58
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I will say in all sincerity that this thread has so far made me regard one scene in the prequels more favorably: The scene in which Palpatine tells the Senate that the Jedi were really the bad guys and they all totally buy it while he looks and sounds like a terrifying monster who is yelling about being dictator for life. I did not believe that scene at all. No way anyone could be that stupid. It turns out that at least several people are that stupid.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:01
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Lord Krangdar posted:They decide to depose him before they're told he is the Sith Lord who has been pulling the strings the whole time. They just see him as a power-hungry politician, and don't know anything else. They think they're justified in seizing power because Palpatine seized power first (by turning the democratic process against itself). They're being hypocritical.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:01
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teagone posted:Because why the gently caress not? Cuz he wasn't 20 in the film. That's the only bad thing about the poster. Everything else is great.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:03
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