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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:However we can expect false flag attacks against American Jews by Israeli intelligence services to ensure a supportive base. Uh, this isn't happening, my dude.
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May 22, 2021 18:14
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Miftan posted:Uh, this isn't happening, my dude. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
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May 22, 2021 18:18
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So not the Israeli state targeting foreign jews with attacks? Cool. The state of Israel bombing and spying on allies isn't new but I don't know of any examples of them targeting jewish people.
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May 22, 2021 18:28
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Ah yes, and the Bay of Pigs was not a state-sanctioned operation either, because Congress didn't sign off on it. Honestly, dude.
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May 22, 2021 18:31
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Tweezer Reprise posted:For Palestinians at the moment, the only viable choices are Hamas or annihilation. In the US, the only viable choices have never been Trump or annihilation. In what way is it the “only viable choice”? It’s not even the only major Palestinian political party or even the only militant group!
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May 22, 2021 18:35
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:In what way is it the “only viable choice”? It’s not even the only major Palestinian political party or even the only militant group! It appears to be the only one actively engaged in fighting when missiles are shot at Palestine.
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May 22, 2021 18:38
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:In what way is it the “only viable choice”? It’s not even the only major Palestinian political party or even the only militant group! I'm curious, what other avenues would you recommend to the Palestinian people?
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May 22, 2021 18:39
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:In what way is it the “only viable choice”? It’s not even the only major Palestinian political party or even the only militant group! Name the other ones then.
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May 22, 2021 18:42
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icantfindaname posted:This sort of seems like a clear win for Hamas/loss for Israel, do we agree? Seems the ethnic conflict among Israeli citizens proper and the degree of global hostility caught them off guard. Israel may have picked all the low hanging fruit as it were in its occupation, proceeding further is going to have greatly increasing costs Declaring these skirmishes to be clear zero-sum win/loss stuff is a bit much, I think. I would say that Netanyahu and Hamas both "won", in that they each achieved the small objectives they could reasonably hope to be able to accomplish, but only at significant cost. I would also say that pro-peace entities on both sides "lost", in that a major objective of those "winning" groups was to discredit those pro-peace groups. And of course the civilian populations lost, especially on the Palestinian side. The Palestinian civilian population is pretty much in a no-win situation.
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May 22, 2021 18:43
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Isn't Hamas being the only viable resistance not dissimilar to Iran.
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May 22, 2021 18:51
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Ham posted:I'm curious, what other avenues would you recommend to the Palestinian people? Has hamas made Gaza a better or worse place to live for Palestinians?
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May 22, 2021 19:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Has hamas made Gaza a better or worse place to live for Palestinians? There would be 0 deviation in Israeli policy towards Palestinians if Hamas unilaterally and unconditionally disarmed and disbanded.
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May 22, 2021 19:09
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Has hamas made Gaza a better or worse place to live for Palestinians? Ask the Palestinians celebrating in their thousands all across Palestine when the ceasefire was declared; ask the palestinians protesting all across Israeli-Arab towns in solidarity with Gaza, and ask the hundreds of thousands of people protesting the Israeli occupation and oppression. Again, what are the better options you would recommend to the Palestinian people?
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May 22, 2021 19:23
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funnily enough living under the existential threat of genocide at any moment as your borders slowly shrink over the decades tends to have a weird effect on the key policies and focuses of your political parties!
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May 22, 2021 19:40
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Franks Happy Place posted:Ah yes, and the Bay of Pigs was not a state-sanctioned operation either, because Congress didn't sign off on it. If you think that the Israeli state is attacking/funding foreign Jews worldwide you're going to have to show me SOMETHING as opposed to going "I know it definitely happens and this lack of proof or historical precedence isn't going to change my mind". This doesn't even happen inside Israel to the best of my knowledge so assuming it happens globally is a stretch, especially because usually people don't need convincing to attack Jews. Plenty of nazis out there.
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May 22, 2021 19:42
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Has hamas made Gaza a better or worse place to live for Palestinians? I mean, as much as i hate reactionary religious extremists, i'd say better? 80% of the notional negative impact of hamas is israeli aggression. Quite a lot of hamas leadership are fuckers. But they're fuckers who successfully provide services when those services don't explode; keep other militant groups largely inline when there's a ceasefire, up until israel inevitably breaks it; and manage to keep up a less bootlicky public image than fatah. Fatah, who were not particularly more effective at controlling militants and were definitely less effective at providing services. Gaza doesn't actually have any better options, and building a better option would first require Israel to not blockade and/or explode Gaza for shits and giggles.
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May 22, 2021 19:46
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thats a good point about enforcing the ceasefires. cant really imagine fatah be able to in their place
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May 22, 2021 19:48
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Ham posted:Again, what are the better options you would recommend to the Palestinian people? Hamas has only been in power for a decade and isn't even ruling over the majority of the palestinian population! There is no reason to paint them as some sort of "the only way" or some inevitable necessity. They are not a synonym for palestine. Both Israel and Hamas are negative groups in palestine. If the US got invaded and the KKK used that to seize the south, you don't have to suddenly stan the KKK. You don't have to hand it to em. They aren't now the good guys. Israel was a negative force for gaza in 2005 just as much as now, but having both israel and hamas both be negative forces doesn't make that better, all the palestinian citizens hamas execute aren't sticking it to israel in any way.
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May 22, 2021 19:50
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https://twitter.com/halaljew/status/1396158903713423362?s=20
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May 22, 2021 19:51
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Has hamas made Gaza a better or worse place to live for Palestinians? I don't think Hamas controls the conditions in Gaza my man, I'm pretty sure the occupying military power dictates that
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May 22, 2021 19:53
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Hamas has only been in power for a decade and isn't even ruling over the majority of the palestinian population! There is no reason to paint them as some sort of "the only way" or some inevitable necessity. They are not a synonym for palestine. Both Israel and Hamas are negative groups in palestine. You keep dodging the question: Ham posted:I'm curious, what other avenues would you recommend to the Palestinian people?
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May 22, 2021 19:56
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https://twitter.com/vv1lder/status/1396142932583874563?s=20 2 hours in and Wilder's statement has 75,000 likes, being retweeted by Julian Castro and Keith Olbermann of all people.
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May 22, 2021 19:59
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What other option is there? It's impossible to tell how shite Hamas would be when they are not even given the option of a democratic mandate, and the population lives under threat of death every day.
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May 22, 2021 20:08
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Josef bugman posted:What other option is there? It's impossible to tell how shite Hamas would be when they are not even given the option of a democratic mandate, and the population lives under threat of death every day. Are you referring to the palestine-wide elections which Fatah has (continued to) delayed? Because Hamas routinely wins Gaza elections and has a very plausible electoral mandate there, it's just the Palestine Legislative Council elections that have been delayed for eleven years and counting  Also re your earlier "afaik Hamas is the only group fighting back against israel": no they're not, there are a bunch of smaller militant groups, because of course there are. Hamas is just the biggest, and as I mentioned earlier, the one that makes the others turn in their piss rockets to the principal's office if they get antsy before Israel breaks a ceasefire. I am a bit curious about the current state of Palestinian labor organization. Obviously there was enough cobbled together for the construction strike but I'm completely unclear on anything beyond that. edit: actually it looks like there have been fewer gaza elections than i thought, hamas' response in 2012 and especially 2016 was "lol go gently caress yourselves, PLA, you'll rig the stupid election" Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 20:22 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 20:15
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Hamas has only been in power for a decade and isn't even ruling over the majority of the palestinian population! There is no reason to paint them as some sort of "the only way" or some inevitable necessity. They are not a synonym for palestine. Both Israel and Hamas are negative groups in palestine. The issue here is this attempt to divorce things of their context, taking the face value of "No government should persecute minorities" or "No government should shoot rockets at civilian population centers" and looking at it as some independent point of debate to justify foreign policy goals - it's the same vacuous moralization American imperialists use to justify horrifically deadly foreign invasions and interventions such as Iraq. Most Palestinians in their occupied homeland live under a collaborationist unelected semi-government, another relic of their occupation. They do not have the luxury of caring about your moralizations of "But is Hamas really good?" Palestinian armed resistance is a necessity borne of 73 years of occupation, repression, expulsion, ethnic cleansing and apartheid - it is the only thing left to them when any semblance of peaceful protest, any semblance of international law, and any semblance of justice is denied them.
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May 22, 2021 20:15
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Fister Roboto posted:You keep dodging the question: I'm not dodging it. The answer is "any of the many other political groups that does operate or has operated in palestine" Hamas is not some inseparable thing inherent to palestine. It's a recent, regional takeover. It's not some "the only way" for palestine.
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May 22, 2021 20:19
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Are you referring to the palestine-wide elections which Fatah has (continued to) delayed? Because Hamas routinely wins Gaza elections and has a very plausible electoral mandate there, it's just the Palestine Legislative Council elections that have been delayed for eleven years and counting I was yes, sorry about that. I understand there are smaller groups, but the larger "umbrella" organisation that Hamas is seems to be working on keeping them in line. I do wish there was a proper left wing alternative mark you.
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May 22, 2021 20:21
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I'm not dodging it. The answer is "any of the many other political groups that does operate or has operated in palestine" Hamas is not some inseparable thing inherent to palestine. It's a recent, regional takeover. It's not some "the only way" for palestine. What groups are those?
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May 22, 2021 20:21
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also hamas controls only gaza, the west bank is more or less Fatah And Friends (although Hamas claims, with some plausibility, that they'd make inroads in the west bank with fair elections) i'm unironically hoping palestine-wide elections happen and are fair, even if it leads to hamas wins Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 20:26 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 20:23
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Release Sadat imo, maybe he can off Abbas and the Palestinian left won't just sit on their rear end as their people and country are wiped off the map.
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May 22, 2021 20:32
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I'm not dodging it. The answer is "any of the many other political groups that does operate or has operated in palestine" Hamas is not some inseparable thing inherent to palestine. It's a recent, regional takeover. It's not some "the only way" for palestine. How is the other political group working out for the palestinians in Jerusalem and the West Bank? Or the refugees waiting on their right of return? The issue is not Hamas or Fatah or any Palestinian political group, the issue is Israel.
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May 22, 2021 20:41
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I'm not dodging it. The answer is "any of the many other political groups that does operate or has operated in palestine" Hamas is not some inseparable thing inherent to palestine. It's a recent, regional takeover. It's not some "the only way" for palestine. That's not an answer. How, specifically, are those better options? What has, say, Fatah accomplished to improve the material conditions of the people of Gaza? How would they be better off if Hamas were dissolved and they took over?
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May 22, 2021 20:44
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Ham posted:How is the other political group working out for the palestinians in Jerusalem and the West Bank? Or the refugees waiting on their right of return? Only Jews can vote in Israel. Yet there are about 4 million Palestinians living in the eest bank colony and Israel proper. Those people cannot vote. And if there was a true census in Israel Palestinians would be outpacing Israelis in terms of population size as both population are about 6.8 million people each
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May 22, 2021 20:46
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Arabs can vote in Israel if they're citizens. (not nationals, that's a status reserved for Jewish people) I don't think it matters in the same sense it doesn't matter to the underlying structures in the US, but isn't there even an Arab person on the Israel Supreme Court?
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May 22, 2021 20:48
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Would exodus to more 'prosperous' muslim countries like Malaysia be an option? It's that or a slow death at this point. 
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May 22, 2021 20:48
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Grouchio posted:Would exodus to more 'prosperous' muslim countries like Malaysia be an option? It's that or a slow death at this point. that would just be Israel succeeding at ethnically cleansing the holy land
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May 22, 2021 20:52
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Grouchio posted:Would exodus to more 'prosperous' muslim countries like Malaysia be an option? It's that or a slow death at this point. imo people doing an exodus to a place and displacing the locals is the source of the whole problem, so no
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May 22, 2021 21:02
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Tweezer Reprise posted:I don't think it matters in the same sense it doesn't matter to the underlying structures in the US, but isn't there even an Arab person on the Israel Supreme Court? George Karra.
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May 22, 2021 21:04
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Israel's been trying to get nearby muslim countries to take the Palestinians since their founding and much of their propaganda over the decades has been focused on how mean they are for not taking in these poor, suffering people.
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May 22, 2021 21:05
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Miftan posted:So not the Israeli state targeting foreign jews with attacks? Cool. The state of Israel bombing and spying on allies isn't new but I don't know of any examples of them targeting jewish people.
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May 22, 2021 21:33
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