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p4k (and every other music site) is good for discovering new music but lol if you take their opinions any more seriously than some random drunk guy at a show
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Dec 7, 2021 04:02
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The Modern Leper posted:I've really liked the number one song all year, but it was absolutely not on my radar as a song of the year. What a weird list. Agreed, and Chaise Lounge is a good song but people are acting like it's a loving masterpiece. It's a forgotten song within a few years tbh.
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Dec 7, 2021 06:18
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Nihonniboku posted:I think what's happened over the years is that Pitchfork has over corrected from criticism that they were pretentious music snobs, so they've gone in the opposite direction and decided to eschew the type of music that they would have gone for in the past and instead go for the latest factory produced top 40 pop or rap album. I used to love going there to learn about the best up and coming indie rock groups, and now you'll go there and see them fangirling over a 17 year old Disney star's debut pop album. Not at all, they just realize that their clout from 15-20 years ago is what will keep them afloat and the clicks aren't happening on the old indie rock poo poo. Reminder - rock is dead. Pop/Rap/EDM are the only things that chart now that they would cover so of course they cover those artists more and prop them up. They need a new audience and have catered to that. We are all getting old and the music industry changes so much while you don't even realize it, music sites have to adapt to those changes or they become as irrelevant. Stereogum was begging to not be a thing of the past https://www.stereogum.com/2089484/save-stereogum-crowdfunding-comp/original-albums/ and they still have mostly adapted to the modern trends with their very minimal footprint that has keep that site running. T Bowl fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 06:27
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And Caroline was a Pitchfork darling in the indie heyday with Chairlift, she owns, and is a great musician. My favorite of her solo work though - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn3cHUtNZKo T Bowl fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 06:39
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T Bowl posted:Agreed, and Chaise Lounge is a good song but people are acting like it's a loving masterpiece. It's a forgotten song within a few years tbh. Took another listen through all these new British bands and odd to me how Dry Cleaning - Scratchcard Lanyard will just keep flying under the radar and they don't get anywhere near as much attention I do like Stereogum's list mostly cuz they have Parannoul, and as much as I love BM, this point I'm more excited about seeing Squid live over both BM and BCNR - https://www.stereogum.com/2169206/the-50-best-albums-of-2021/lists/year-in-review/2021-in-review/
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Dec 7, 2021 13:01
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cptn_dr posted:Yeah but to be fair, Sour was actually really good. It was, but Deja Vu was a kind of odd choice and probably should've been quite a bit lower. It was great at what it was, but it wasn't aiming that high. Meanwhile I'm still trying to figure out what the deal is with Mitski. Maybe you just had to be there. I wasn't aware of her first album; her last one was okay but felt like it needed a few more passes, and these new songs sound even less finished to me. It feels to me like she's still coasting on some early potential for greatness that people desperately want to materialize. Maybe next year they'll reassess and bring it down a few tenths of a point.
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Dec 7, 2021 13:47
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T Bowl posted:Not at all, they just realize that their clout from 15-20 years ago is what will keep them afloat and the clicks aren't happening on the old indie rock poo poo. Reminder - rock is dead. Pop/Rap/EDM are the only things that chart now that they would cover so of course they cover those artists more and prop them up. They need a new audience and have catered to that. What do you mean by rock is dead? One of the biggest hits of the year was "Good 4 U" which was a power punk track. "Leave the Door Open" was also huge (although depending on how you define rock, it might not be, but I say it is in the pantheon). Another big hit "A-OK" is hugely influenced by a rock sound, blending that guitar (which does sound so good) with pop elements. Phoebe Bridgers gets a ton of attention. Lucy Daucus's album sells well. Japanese Breakfast releases both a successful album and a best-selling book. Little Nas-X's album has a few pop-punk songs. Shamir continues to do their thing. If you define rock as white guys joylessly playing grunge, you're right, it's dead. If you only look at the charts, sure. But who gives a flying gently caress about the charts when there's a ton of new artists cropping up every day. Rock isn't dead, the rock we grew up with is dead.
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Dec 7, 2021 14:21
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I think what most people mean is that "rock bands" are dead. None of the above would really qualify. I don't think any genre ever truly dies, but they definitely reach a point where you can't make a living doing just that.
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Dec 7, 2021 14:44
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Those quirky British art school bands that popped up recently (black midi, Squid, BC,NR) are definitely rock bands. I’m not sure if they’re lucrative but nerdy music internet people make them sound like the biggest bands on Earth.
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Dec 7, 2021 15:12
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T Bowl posted:Not at all, they just realize that their clout from 15-20 years ago is what will keep them afloat and the clicks aren't happening on the old indie rock poo poo. Reminder - rock is dead. Pop/Rap/EDM are the only things that chart now that they would cover so of course they cover those artists more and prop them up. They need a new audience and have catered to that. You're talking about both rock, and indie rock. Yes, chart topping rock music from major rock bands hasn't really been a thing in over 20 years thanks to radio station monopolies and government regulatory fuckery. As I've learned in the last year or so, pop rock in the form of Avril Lavigne (20 years ago) or Olivia Rodrigo has continued on apparently. I mentioned to a friend today my surprise at how big pop punk has been this year, and he said it never went away. Indie rock was almost never chart topping, it never got Justin Bieber numbers. Yes, Arcade Fire was asked to perform at the Super Bowl, but the NFL asked Arcade Fire to pay $100,000 for the privilege of doing so saying it would give them unprecedented exposure. This was the same band that when they won the Grammy for album of the year, people were upset because they didn't know who they were. Arcade Fire smartly declined. You go to indie rock shows, and it's still full of the same kind of people that were flocking to see Of Montreal 15 years ago, except instead of wearing skinny jeans, they've brought back mullets apparently. Indie rock bands are still playing the same kind of venues, a Fillmore, or 9:30 Club. I wonder how much Pitchfork changing has to do with being sold to Conde Nast in 2015, one of the largest media conglomerates in the world. They started to follow more pop, rap, and EDM before 2015, but it wasn't really until then that it seemed to almost entirely abandon their indie roots.
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Dec 7, 2021 15:18
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Don't forget about sad girl indie too 
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Dec 7, 2021 15:26
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Cemetry Gator posted:What do you mean by rock is dead? One of the biggest hits of the year was "Good 4 U" which was a power punk track. "Leave the Door Open" was also huge (although depending on how you define rock, it might not be, but I say it is in the pantheon). Another big hit "A-OK" is hugely influenced by a rock sound, blending that guitar (which does sound so good) with pop elements. It's dead in that sense and that's what I mean. They don't chart. It's mostly a dead genre and even your examples are a reach to describe as full on rock music but I guess they do use guitars.
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Dec 7, 2021 15:57
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There's very much a dichotomy where many conventional rock bands still sell out arenas and are clearly popular but have nothing that actually charts by the conventional metrics the music industry uses to measure engagement. They're not really at the forefront of pop culture anymore, either, and this is what I think most people have in mind when they say "rock is dead."
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Dec 7, 2021 16:14
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All those bands selling out arenas have decades-long careers and have loyal fan bases but they're still not buying albums anymore. If anything that further proves how dead of a genre it is that any big band selling out huge venues has probably been around for over 20 years. E:. I mean if you go to one of those shows as well the average age is probably mid-40s and up of the fan base. Not exactly the type of people you want to court for a trendy music website. T Bowl fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 16:19
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T Bowl posted:It's dead in that sense and that's what I mean. They don't chart. It's mostly a dead genre and even your examples are a reach to describe as full on rock music but I guess they do use guitars. Honestly, you're not making any sense. How are you defining dead? How are you defining rock? And why are the charts so important? They are just promotional tools used by record companies. A song can chart high and never actually be a popular song (read about Am I The Only One, which hit #14). Take Vampire Weekend. They never hit the charts, and yet they're super popular. Here's my take. I go to a show and see people go crazy for Luna Li opening for Japanese Breakfast, I think I can safely say rock isn't dead.
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Dec 7, 2021 16:27
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The whole discussion was why a music website has shifted its focus a bit and that is all about clicks. The other genres get more and more clicks and are more relevant to youth. There will always be young people into alternative music but relatively it's much smaller. I can't imagine if I went to a college and started asking people if they had heard of Japanese Breakfast that music would be that known.
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Dec 7, 2021 17:00
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T Bowl posted:The whole discussion was why a music website has shifted its focus a bit and that is all about clicks. I mean, she got booked on Jimmy Fallon, she got a few Grammy nominations, and she has a best selling book. When she came to my town, her show sold out pretty quickly. I knew people that wanted to go but couldn't get tickets. Once again, the definition of dead is important. Getting back to Pitchfork - a big thing too is that most people don't define themselves by one genre (not sure they ever did). A lot of musicians play around with multiple genres and styles. Sticking to one style doesn't match your listener base anymore. I don't know how much of it is reality versus changes in the marketing machine.
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Dec 7, 2021 17:08
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T Bowl posted:All those bands selling out arenas have decades-long careers and have loyal fan bases but they're still not buying albums anymore. No demo is buying albums
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Dec 7, 2021 17:18
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Jazz music still exists and is enjoyed by plenty of people, but it is also commercially "dead" for all intents and purposes. I see rock music heading in that same direction, it's just not quite as old yet. It's not really a bad thing. I see it as a natural process. The genre reached maturity and there was nothing left to say about it, so people moved on to something else. The genre still exists as a legacy that can still be enjoyed, and as something that can be used and fused together with other things. But it is in a sense complete. Maybe "rock is finished" would be a more accurate way to put it. It's done. And he declared that it was good. Sir Lemming fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 17:23
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T Bowl posted:The whole discussion was why a music website has shifted its focus a bit and that is all about clicks. I don’t think people who read Pitchfork can be classified as „youth“
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Dec 7, 2021 17:32
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Stereo gum is good. I have nothing else to contribute to this discussion
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Dec 7, 2021 18:25
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this rock is dead conversation is especially stupid because capitalism just neutralizes all expression for the purpose of accumulating the most wealth possible in the shortest time possible so you end up with totally sterile pop music that all sounds the same because it is totally inoffensive to most people and therefore likely to generate the most money. in conclusion, rock is dead, long live rock!!
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Dec 7, 2021 19:29
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thehoodie posted:this rock is dead conversation is especially stupid because capitalism just neutralizes all expression for the purpose of accumulating the most wealth possible in the shortest time possible so you end up with totally sterile pop music that all sounds the same because it is totally inoffensive to most people and therefore likely to generate the most money. Maybe you’re just making a joke, but I think pop music right now is more creative and diverse and well made than it has been in decades. I wouldn’t call it inoffensive either. There’s edgy pop music that is huge
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Dec 7, 2021 19:50
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I mean, people have been saying rock is dead since the 1960s.
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Dec 7, 2021 20:03
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Sir Lemming posted:Jazz music still exists and is enjoyed by plenty of people, but it is also commercially "dead" for all intents and purposes. I see rock music heading in that same direction, it's just not quite as old yet. I reject this notion almost entirely, as it is ahistoric and not reflective of reality. What does it mean for a style to be dead? If we look at genres of music, they're constantly spinning off and recombining with different styles of music. Rock didn't come from a void. It's an offshoot of blues, R&B, country, folk music, and jazz. Over the years, people have embraced different elements when making rock - think Roy Wood and Jeff Lynne blending classical music with rock in the early 70s to make ELO. In more modern times, rock and hip-hop have fused together in many different ways. Sometimes, it's nu-metal, sometimes it's something like Thundercat, and sometimes it's like Lil Nas X's "That's What I Want." Sure, rock today doesn't look like the rock of the 70s, but then again, rock of the 80s didn't look like rock of the 50s (Stray Cats excepted). We also have to deal with genre classifications. Genres are messy. You have to deal with race and other gender and locales. Like, what's the difference between a lot of country and rock? Everybody says rock doesn't chart, but country does. All it is at some point is marketing. As for jazz, it became less popular as the style developed into a more theoretical style. A lot of jazz music, or at least what was still marketed as jazz, since let's be honest, some of it got spun into rock, was very much musicians making music for musicians.
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Dec 7, 2021 20:12
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Cemetry Gator posted:We also have to deal with genre classifications. Genres are messy. You have to deal with race and other gender and locales. Like, what's the difference between a lot of country and rock? Trucks. Rock doesn't sing about them, country does. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8MBUZjJX7Y
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Dec 7, 2021 20:28
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People still make disco and swing. No genre is actually "dead".
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Dec 7, 2021 20:55
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I think this is destined to be an eternal goalpost-moving conservation because of genre being such a vague thing anyway. And because obviously it's literally impossible for a genre to be "dead" because someone can just decide to make more of it. I dunno.
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Dec 7, 2021 21:27
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The original discussion for me was on commercial viability of the genre. I think it has less and less over the years that pitchfork has been a site. Interesting that their top 50 that was released is very pop/r&b heavy and very female domintated this year. The point I am trying to make is there are very few modern bands in rock music that are household names. Obviously everyone knows older acts that are still huge like say, foo fighters. But even someone like arcade fire you're going to have a ton of people saying who? Someone else posted about pitchfork being purchased by some large company as well and obviously that did probably have some degree in deciding to shift more towards mainstream acts and less alt poo poo. Obviously they still dabble in most genres but it's clear that there is a focus on what sells more than ever on that site. That's all I have to say about it!
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Dec 7, 2021 21:52
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Cemetry Gator posted:We also have to deal with genre classifications. Genres are messy. You have to deal with race and other gender and locales. Like, what's the difference between a lot of country and rock? Everybody says rock doesn't chart, but country does. All it is at some point is marketing. Yeah, the entire market segment of popular guitar-based music has shifted from rock to country. It took 30 years but country stars fill arenas. Only a handful of rock bands can do that, and it’s a lot of dinosaur acts.
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Dec 7, 2021 22:12
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BigFactory posted:Maybe you’re just making a joke, but I think pop music right now is more creative and diverse and well made than it has been in decades. I wouldn’t call it inoffensive either. There’s edgy pop music that is huge by "pop music" i meant "popular", ie. charting, which was the original point. i don't think there is much debate that "popular" (mainstream) media presents mostly very safe and saccharine material. see the film industry also.
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Dec 7, 2021 22:37
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There's still a shitload of great indie rock bands around playing festivals and making a living, we post about them constantly in here. If anything we've just shifted back to the 70s 80s where college rock and alternative was actually sorta alternative and underground.
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Dec 7, 2021 23:39
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St Vincent & Olivia Rodrigo played SNL this year ergo rock is not dead. Unless they're not rock in which case just gently caress you for talking about genres at all it's meaningless.
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Dec 8, 2021 00:10
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thehoodie posted:by "pop music" i meant "popular", ie. charting, which was the original point. i don't think there is much debate that "popular" (mainstream) media presents mostly very safe and saccharine material. see the film industry also. WAP was a #1 billboard single
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Dec 8, 2021 01:21
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BigFactory posted:WAP was a #1 billboard single there are always exceptions to prove the rule. Lil Nas X is charting right now and I would fit that in this category
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Dec 8, 2021 02:13
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thehoodie posted:there are always exceptions to prove the rule. Lil Nas X is charting right now and I would fit that in this category Try streaming top pop songs without an explicit filter on. I’m not sure you are really closely following trends in pop music.
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Dec 8, 2021 02:38
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Cemetry Gator posted:
Vampire Weekend are basically the peak of what a indie rock band could achieve this past decade - several gold records (one platinum), 3 straight albums to hit #1, and several songs that charted in the rock charts that didn't break over into the Hot 100 (one platinum single, one gold) - I can think of very few other bands who reached that level of success that hit it big post indie rock revival (so, 2005): Arcade Fire, Bon Iver, The Black Keys...I think I'm out of names, unless Tame Impala would count. It is very hard to have that level of success, and to have that continued, sustained commercial success over several albums. They are a step above what The National, St. Vincent, or Sufjan Stevens were able to do - all acts that could sell out small theaters and clubs on their own.
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Dec 8, 2021 03:01
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BigFactory posted:Try streaming top pop songs without an explicit filter on. I’m not sure you are really closely following trends in pop music. do you think swearing is controversial
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Dec 8, 2021 04:04
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Beach house just premiered chapter two of Once Twice Melody. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf7hoM5RdeU
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Dec 8, 2021 05:04
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thehoodie posted:do you think swearing is controversial Who said anything about controversial? Do you listen to a lot of pop music or are you mostly a rock guy and don’t listen to top 40 radio ever?
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Dec 8, 2021 12:19
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