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SHISHKABOB posted:Luke should have done this, then things wouldn't have ended so horribly for everyone. Hmm wait. I mean, yeah, it all worked out in the end, but if Luke had suppressed his feelings the Emperor wouldn't have been able to bait him by telling him about all the hate and anger he felt in him, and Vader wouldn't have been able to find out about and threaten Leia, which made Luke snap, almost kill him and almost fall to the Dark Side. However, I agree that making your main character act like a weird robot who doesn't care about things is a bad idea to put in a movie even if you can make a rational argument for it.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:25
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Tezzor posted:I mean, yeah, it all worked out in the end, but if Luke had suppressed his feelings the Emperor wouldn't have been able to bait him by telling him about all the hate and anger he felt in him, and Vader wouldn't have been able to find out about and threaten Leia, which made Luke snap, almost kill him and almost fall to the Dark Side. However, I agree that making your main character act like a weird robot who doesn't care about things is a bad idea to put in a movie even if you can make a rational argument for it. On the other hand, Vader would never have been redeemed if Luke hadn't been able to harness his emotions to overcome his father. In a universe with a literal afterlife, this is important.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:27
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Tezzor posted:I mean, yeah, it all worked out in the end, but if Luke had suppressed his feelings the Emperor wouldn't have been able to bait him by telling him about all the hate and anger he felt in him, and Vader wouldn't have been able to find out about and threaten Leia, which made Luke snap, almost kill him and almost fall to the Dark Side. However, I agree that making your main character act like a weird robot who doesn't care about things is a bad idea to put in a movie even if you can make a rational argument for it. Gah you are so close !!!
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Jan 24, 2016 03:31
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TheKingofSprings posted:It's a shame the 2003 Clone Wars cartoon version of Grievous isn't canon, that has to have been one of the most dangerous villains in Star Wars he is but then he has his lungs crushed, you try doing all that poo poo with crushed lungs
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Jan 24, 2016 03:33
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Tezzor posted:I mean, yeah, it all worked out in the end, but if Luke had suppressed his feelings the Emperor wouldn't have been able to bait him by telling him about all the hate and anger he felt in him, and Vader wouldn't have been able to find out about and threaten Leia, which made Luke snap, almost kill him and almost fall to the Dark Side. However, I agree that making your main character act like a weird robot who doesn't care about things is a bad idea to put in a movie even if you can make a rational argument for it. Even if Luke had somehow "suppressed his feelings", the emperor would have destroyed him. Except Vader would not have saved him.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:34
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SHISHKABOB posted:Even if Luke had somehow "suppressed his feelings", the emperor would have destroyed him. Except Vader would not have saved him. I like the idea of them standing there exchanging witty repartees until the Death Star exploded.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:35
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Prolonged Priapism posted:You're missing the context of their relationship. Obi-Wan basically adopted Anakin at age 9. He's his surrogate father for ten or twelve years. Anakin is rebellious, but mostly tries to live up to Obi-Wan's expectations. He is a very gifted student and in many ways is beyond his teacher. They save each other's lives multiple times. We don't see any of this in the movies except the last part, though, and even then, in a given scene Anakin and Obi-Wan are more likely to be off doing their own things than they are to be working as a team. It sure would have been great if we could have seen Obi-Wan raising Anakin, watching him grow up, spending a lot of time with him, laughing with him, training him, being proud of him, etc. We need these emotional connections. Obi-Wan wasn't even around when the audience meets Anakin. He should have been the one on Tatooine, making a connection with this (older) kid and really wanting to train him. Instead he sits on the ship and does nothing. Anakin is "rebellious," but he's also a pissy, crybaby rear end in a top hat who yells about how much he dislikes Obi-Wan at the drop of a hat. Obi-Wan should have been Anakin's biggest advocate in the Council while everybody else was still unsure of him. Instead he criticizes Anakin behind his back to his bosses.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:39
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Tezzor posted:We don't see any of this in the movies except the last part, though, and even then, in a given scene Anakin and Obi-Wan are more likely to be off doing their own things than they are to be working as a team. It sure would have been great if we could have seen Obi-Wan raising Anakin, watching him grow up, spending a lot of time with him, laughing with him, training him, being proud of him, etc. We need these emotional connections. Obi-Wan wasn't even around when the audience meets Anakin. He should have been the one on Tatooine, making a connection with this (older) kid and really wanting to train him. Instead he sits on the ship and does nothing. Anakin is "rebellious," but he's also a pissy, crybaby rear end in a top hat who yells about how much he dislikes Obi-Wan at the drop of a hat. Obi-Wan should have been Anakin's biggest advocate in the Council while everybody else was still unsure of him. Instead he criticizes Anakin behind his back to his bosses. Yeah, Obi-Wan was a really lovely father figure. It makes sense that he'd be carrying a lot of guilt about how things worked out.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:41
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Mechafunkzilla posted:On the other hand, Vader would never have been redeemed if Luke hadn't been able to harness his emotions to overcome his father. In a universe with a literal afterlife, this is important. Harness his emotions to impulsively and irrationally wail on his father in an insane rage and dismember him. I think it could be argued that Vader would still have made the same choice if Luke kept to his original decision not to fight him after being tempted by the dark side the first time, and the Emperor still would have gotten pissed and tried to torture the his son to death right in front of him if he rejected the dark side the first time instead of the second time.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:43
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Tezzor posted:Harness his emotions to impulsively and irrationally wail on his father in an insane rage and dismember him. I think it could be argued that Vader would still have made the same choice if Luke kept to his original decision not to fight him after being tempted by the dark side the first time, and the Emperor still would have gotten pissed and tried to torture the his son to death right in front of him if he rejected the dark side the first time instead of the second time. Argue it please. What is your supporting evidence.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:45
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Yeah, Obi-Wan was a really lovely father figure. It makes sense that he'd be carrying a lot of guilt about how things worked out. Actually the critical error here is in the presentation and writing and not how Obi-Wan acted
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Jan 24, 2016 03:45
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Tezzor have you ever [had/been/known] a stern father and/or teenage son? Yelling at and about each other is perfectly normal, and can happen in the context of an otherwise good relationship. Of course it can also happen in a relationship that fails, which is what we're watching. If you want "the good times," Lucas made them, they are canon, and apparently people like them: The Clone Wars show.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:46
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Tezzor posted:Harness his emotions to impulsively and irrationally wail on his father in an insane rage and dismember him. I think it could be argued that Vader would still have made the same choice if Luke kept to his original decision not to fight him after being tempted by the dark side the first time, and the Emperor still would have gotten pissed and tried to torture the his son to death right in front of him if he rejected the dark side the first time instead of the second time. It's by dismembering his father that they're able to finally connect -- they have given each other an identical wound, after which Luke is able to forgive and show compassion to his father. Vader could never forgive himself, and so Luke's gesture is necessary for his redemption.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:46
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Tezzor posted:Actually the critical error here is in the presentation and writing and not how Obi-Wan acted I don't really accept the premise that a script or film can be "wrong" in this way. A film can undermine its own themes, sure, but you're taking the extra step of saying that certain themes shouldn't exist in the film in the first place and that doesn't make any sense to me. Basically, you're bringing in ideology of what Star Wars "should" be, but you don't have to do that. The films are right there, you can watch them. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 03:48
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TheKingofSprings posted:The Jedi being forbidden to love always bugged me watching the PT. That's intended to be stupid, yeah? Love is the main reason Vader snaps back at the end of Return. Love isn't the problem, the attachment is. the willingness to kill or die for someone can lead a person down a bad path. someone who could love deeply but let go when the time came would probably be the perfect jedi.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:49
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Tezzor posted:Obi-Wan should have been Anakin's biggest advocate in the Council while everybody else was still unsure of him. Instead he criticizes Anakin behind his back to his bosses. Obi-Wan grows from a stern and hypercritical (and hypocritical) father figure into Anakin's biggest advocate on the council.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:51
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SHISHKABOB posted:Argue it please. What is your supporting evidence. Vader's motivation for choosing the light was his love for his son, the heroic example his son set, and the Emperor being insanely evil and torturing his son to death right in front of him. He still feels more or less the same way about his son either way; in fact I would argue that there was a lesser chance Vader, a bad guy with a lot of anger, would allow Luke to be tortured to death out of spite and anger if he hadn't just gotten humiliated and dismembered by him. The son still shows the heroic example of being tempted by and rejecting the Dark Side. The Emperor seems just as likely to flip out and start shooting lightning either way.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:52
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Elfgames posted:Love isn't the problem, the attachment is. the willingness to kill or die for someone can lead a person down a bad path. someone who could love deeply but let go when the time came would probably be the perfect jedi. This doesn't really jive with the human experience. People are much more likely to kill because they feel unloved and are unable to maintain meaningful relationships. Once again, Luke's journey reveals how misguided the Jedi's philosophy of austerity is.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:54
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Tezzor posted:I think the reason I hate the prequel movies so much is that if you assume the events in them actually happened it makes the actions of characters in the OT sillier and less comprehensible. Vader is obvious, but Obi-Wan is a big one, too. Obi-Wan talking wistfully about how "Annie was a good friend" ceases to make any sense. I would not look back on my relationship with Anakin Skywalker with any fondness. I would think about him more like the fictional roommate I had in college who I had some fun times with but was always kind of an rear end in a top hat who lied to me all the time, who later became a Neo-Nazi, caved in his girlfriend's head with a blender, and is doing life upstate. If I thought about him at all 20 years later I would think "what a piece of poo poo that guy was" and not "Mikey was a good friend." You have to consider that Obi-Wan isn't necessarily speaking his true thoughts when he says that; he's saying that to/for Luke.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:56
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Tezzor posted:Vader's motivation for choosing the light was his love for his son, the heroic example his son set, and the Emperor being insanely evil and torturing his son to death right in front of him. He still feels more or less the same way about his son either way; in fact I would argue that there was a lesser chance Vader, a bad guy with a lot of anger, would allow Luke to be tortured to death out of spite and anger if he hadn't just gotten humiliated and dismembered by him. The son still shows the heroic example of being tempted by and rejecting the Dark Side. The Emperor seems just as likely to flip out and start shooting lightning either way. But then you lose the powerful (and necessary, I think) mirrored-ESB-replay moment where Luke and Vader fully realize their kinship - Luke has dark in him, Vader has light. They could both go either way at any time - it's a choice every moment. I'm just like my dad. I'm just like my boy. That's them both integrating their shadows. Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 03:58
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Zoran posted:Obi-Wan grows from a stern and hypercritical (and hypocritical) father figure into Anakin's biggest advocate on the council. If I say that an emotional connection between our two main characters should have been established far earlier and far better than this would you tell me that George Lucas deliberately made the film bad on purpose
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Jan 24, 2016 04:07
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Tezzor posted:If I say that an emotional connection between our two main characters should have been established far earlier and far better than this would you tell me that George Lucas deliberately made the film bad on purpose Tezzor posted:Anakin is "rebellious," but he's also a pissy, crybaby rear end in a top hat who yells about how much he dislikes Obi-Wan at the drop of a hat. Anakin and Obi-Wan do have an emotional connection, as you've described. The emotions felt are very often not positive ones, and play an important role in how the prequels' narrative resolves.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:13
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Tezzor posted:If I say that an emotional connection between our two main characters should have been established far earlier and far better than this would you tell me that George Lucas deliberately made the film bad on purpose Seeing as nobody has done anything of the sort up to this point, probably not.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:13
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Prolonged Priapism posted:But then you lose the powerful (and necessary, I think) mirrored-ESB-replay moment where Luke and Vader fully realize their kinship - Luke has dark in him, Vader has light. They could both go either way at any time - it's a choice every moment. I'm just like my dad. My boy is just like me. That's them both integrating their shadows. Yes, we would lose some great emotional moments there, but I don't think them having something in common was rationally the deciding factor of the characters' motivations where things would definitely have went the other way if Luke never flipped out and attacked Vader. And as requiring that a movie show us emotional moments instead of telling us or leaving us to decipher secret messages without evidence, is, I am told, spergy, we must conclude that this would be an equally effective scene Tezzor fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 04:16
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Who was complaining about obscurantism.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:19
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Tezzor posted:Yes, we would lose some great emotional moments there, but I don't think them having something in common was rationally the deciding factor of the characters' motivations where things would definitely have went the other way if Luke never flipped out and attacked Vader. And as requiring that a movie show us emotional moments instead of telling us or leaving us to secret messages without evidence, is, I am told, spergy, we must conclude that this would be an equally effective scene I would be super interested in reading your reaction to a movie like L'Avventura.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:19
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Motto posted:Seeing as nobody has done anything of the sort up to this point, probably not. I am told that George Lucas deliberately made all the antagonists in the movie ridiculous chumps who die stupidly as a secret message about how Crime Doesn't Pay Tezzor fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 04:19
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Tezzor posted:I am told that George Lucas deliberately all the antagonists in the movie ridiculous chumps who die stupidly as a secret message about how Crime Doesn't Pay Uh no . No one said this .
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Jan 24, 2016 04:23
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Hey remember how all the good guys who die in these movies except maybe Qui-Gon are also ridiculous chumps who die like idiots? What is that trying to symbolize? Wait I forgot that they were the bad guys too
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Jan 24, 2016 04:23
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Tezzor posted:Hey remember how all the good guys who die in these movies except maybe Qui-Gon are also ridiculous chumps who die like idiots? What is that trying to symbolize? Wait I forgot that they were the bad guys too They are betrayed by their flawed ideology.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:24
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Mechafunkzilla posted:This doesn't really jive with the human experience. People are much more likely to kill because they feel unloved and are unable to maintain meaningful relationships. Once again, Luke's journey reveals how misguided the Jedi's philosophy of austerity is. that's still a crime of passion "I deserve to be loved" it's an attachment to the way things are supposed to be. Luke is still willing to die on the death star he doesn't go there to kill the emperor and run away with his father he goes there to convert his father so that they can be together in the force. he even nearly slips up and attacks in anger but luke lets his anger go and forgives his father and he's rewarded for that.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:24
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Lord Hydronium posted:I know people are probably tired of hearing this, but that's intentional. One of the big recurring ideas in the prequels is that evil isn't cool or badass. It's comical like Nute Gunray, it's cowardly like Grievous, it dies without dignity like Maul or Dooku or Jango, and it's tragic like Vader. The latter one in particular; there's a very good reason we never see Vader slaying Jedi badassedly in the suit. Anakin going into the suit is a failure on his part, not a moment to cheer (hell, the music playing when the suit is revealed is literally from a funeral, in TPM).
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Jan 24, 2016 04:25
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Mechafunkzilla posted:They are betrayed by their flawed ideology. They are betrayed by a ridiculous monster who looks like death
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Jan 24, 2016 04:26
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Elfgames posted:that's still a crime of passion "I deserve to be loved" it's an attachment to the way things are supposed to be. Luke is still willing to die on the death star he doesn't go there to kill the emperor and run away with his father he goes there to convert his father so that they can be together in the force. he even nearly slips up and attacks in anger but luke lets his anger go and forgives his father and he's rewarded for that. Kinda delving into attachment theory here but no, being unable to form meaningful relationships cannot somehow be equated with being "attached" to the idea of being loved.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:27
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Tezzor posted:They are betrayed by a ridiculous monster who looks like death Who himself has a greater mastery of the Force than any of the Jedi, as demonstrated by Yoda's defeat. It's like poetry, it rhymes.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:28
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Tezzor, you are getting confused because you have trouble with literacy. People are reading first, then making sensible assumptions based on those readings. Not the other way around. For example: the character killed at the start of Episode 3 is named Dookie. From this we can conclude that he is not to be taken as a serious threat. Your assertion is that Dookie is 'supposed to be' a serious threat, and therefore his name is an error created by the illuminati to vex you.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:31
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Tezzor posted:They are betrayed by a ridiculous monster who looks like death Do you have brain problems or something E: like legitimate mental illness, it's not something to hold against you or anything but it would make this discussion make a hell of a lot more sense
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Jan 24, 2016 04:35
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Tezzor posted:Yes, we would lose some great emotional moments there, but I don't think them having something in common was rationally the deciding factor of the characters' motivations where things would definitely have went the other way if Luke never flipped out and attacked Vader. And as requiring that a movie show us emotional moments instead of telling us or leaving us to decipher secret messages without evidence, is, I am told, spergy, we must conclude that this would be an equally effective scene The climax of the film centers around exactly these "holy poo poo, we're the same" moments. Luke realizes he's the same as Vader, and tosses his saber, breaking the cycle. Han realizes he can assume the arrogance (and appearance) of the Imperials and draw them out of the shield generator instead of fighting his way in. Lando realizes he needn't be trapped between the Death Star and the Star Destroyers - he can mix with their fleet, and neutralize the Death Star. Our characters morally, emotionally, and physically become their enemies. The lines blur. Then one by one the victories cascade as a result of these "we're the same" moments. Luke's is the last to reach the depth of despair and the first to resolve. It's the turning point. He sets off the chain that leads to total victory. Losing that moment would be a storytelling disaster. edit: Actually, thinking about it some more, while Luke starts the chain, Han and the gang down on Endor reslove their fight completely first, with the destruction of the generator, which happens right after Luke tosses his saber. Han gets to total victory first, because his was the easiest identification with the enemy - he merely looked and sounded like one for about ten seconds. Lando has to one up his "blend with their fleet" trick, and fly in to the Death Star itself - he becomes a part of it, and that's harder than dodging ImpStars and turbolasers. His task is harder, and takes longer, because there's more at stake when you assume your enemy's location and challenge them in their field of expertise - or fly in to their guts. And then of course lastly there's Luke and Vader. Luke's moral identification with his enemy is a supreme challenge (he maintains it while being tortured), which lasts until his enemy fully identifies with him also, tossing the Emperor. It's not a true feeling unless you act on it. Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 04:59
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Quick! Everyone dogpile on Tezzor!
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Jan 24, 2016 04:59
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Yaws posted:Quick! Everyone dogpile on Tezzor! Why don't you try talking about movies instead of whining about how other people are talking about movies?
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Jan 24, 2016 05:01
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