Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Unkempt posted:

Is there a detailed account of the end of the First Age and start of the second, or is that just something he never got around to? I see there's a volume of the History called 'War of the Jewels' but looking at the contents, it all seems a bit thin.

This is a section of the history that was very radically reshaped over Tolkien�s lifetime, far more so than many other parts. The Book of Lost Tales Part 2 has quite a bit of detail about what Tolkien thought would make a good ending circa 1920, but virtually all of it was discarded from the published Silmarillion because it completely and wildly disagrees with all the later Hobbit/Numenor/LOTR stuff. This is because at the time when he wrote the original end of the story, Tolkien did not yet think of there being a First, Second, and Third Age, there was no future of Numenor or Sauron or anything for him to lead into. instead there was the Elder Days when all the elves and gods stuff happens, and then real history begins and Romans and Germans start invading the place.

The reason why the version of the end of the First Age in the published Silmarillion is so relatively sketchy is because it�s based on annals/outline that Tolkien did to support the later materials that he published. You can find the most updated version of those in the Annals of Aman section in Morgoth�s Ring (I think. Might be in the Tale of Years section in War of the Jewels instead). But was never a full narrative and it doesn�t seem like Tolkien ever really intended it to be: even in the frame of Lost Tales, the downfall of Morgoth is the end note that happens when all the good stories have run out, and not so much a story in its own right.

skasion fucked around with this message at 23:58 on May 20, 2021

# ? May 20, 2021 23:54

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 20:50

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

I think the War of Wrath was left intentionally vague because it ultimately isn't part of the story of the Noldorin exiles--all the heavy lifting was done by the Valar, Vanyar, and unexiled Noldor

Earendil, on the other hand, I think was something he always thought deserved full treatment but never got around to. Considering that he never even started a detailed treatment of it, in any phase of his work (to my recollection at least), I'm guessing it's one of those thing where the beginning and end were solid in his mind and the middle was just a big empty space with "adventures go here" and he never really had a satisfying idea of what those adventures were or how they fit into a cohesive whole

# ? May 20, 2021 23:57

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

cheetah7071 posted:

I think the War of Wrath was left intentionally vague because it ultimately isn't part of the story of the Noldorin exiles--all the heavy lifting was done by the Valar, Vanyar, and unexiled Noldor

Earendil, on the other hand, I think was something he always thought deserved full treatment but never got around to. Considering that he never even started a detailed treatment of it, in any phase of his work (to my recollection at least), I'm guessing it's one of those thing where the beginning and end were solid in his mind and the middle was just a big empty space with "adventures go here" and he never really had a satisfying idea of what those adventures were or how they fit into a cohesive whole

You could compile a fair amount of detail on the adventures of Earendil between the annalistic accounts, the BOLT version with the sleeper in the tower of pearl, and the various versions of the �Earendil was a mariner� poem (especially the middle version with Ungoliant and the weird lightning sun bee thing). But yeah, nothing approaching a complete treatment, and often the details are in total disagreement with each other. Plenty of ideas, but no single story.

# ? May 21, 2021 00:03

Unkempt: May 24, 2003; ...perfect spiral, scientists are still figuring it out...

Well, that's a shame. It seems such a major part of the history of his universe, but hey, up to him I suppose.

skasion posted:

the middle version with Ungoliant and the weird lightning sun bee thing

Where's this one to be found?

# ? May 21, 2021 00:13

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Unkempt posted:

Well, that's a shame. It seems such a major part of the history of his universe, but hey, up to him I suppose.

Where's this one to be found?

Christopher spends a lot of space discussing the versions of the poem at the point where it comes up in the Rivendell bits of the LOTR drafts, so...in Return of the Shadow, I think?

# ? May 21, 2021 00:27

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

If I recall correctly, the published poem was an early draft which mistakenly made it into the manuscript, and somehow also escaped correction in the second edition which fixed a bunch of other small things

# ? May 21, 2021 00:32

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

cheetah7071 posted:

If I recall correctly, the published poem was an early draft which mistakenly made it into the manuscript, and somehow also escaped correction in the second edition which fixed a bunch of other small things

The version in the published text is, I guess, the penultimate draft. JRRT made a fair copy with several differences of phrasing and a new stanza (�in might the Feanorians...�) but then lost it before he could attach it to the manuscript he sent to to the publishers. I posted it somewhere upthread. There�s a funny bit where Christopher alludes to how he eventually unearthed it, covered in notes from when JRRT found it again long after the publication of the book and had completely forgotten about it and was confused as to what it was.

Here it is. He doesn�t give the full text, just notes where it�s different from the published version, so if there�s mistakes they�re probably my fault

quote:

E�rendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvernien:
he built a boat of timber felled
in Nimbrethil to journey in.
Her sails he wove of silver fair,
with silver were her banners sewn;
her prow he fashioned like the swans
that white upon the Falas roam.

His coat that came from ancient kings
of chained rings was forged of old;
his shining shield all wounds defied
with runes entwined of dwarven gold.
His bow was made of dragon-horn,
his arrows shorn of ebony,
of triple steel his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony;
his sword was like a flame in sheath,
with gems was wreathed his helmet tall,
an eagle-plume upon his crest,
upon his breast an emerald.

Beneath the moon and under star
he wandered far from northern strands,
bewildered on enchanted ways
beyond the days of mortal lands.
From gnashing of the Narrow Ice
where shadow lies on frozen hills,
from nether heats and burning waste
he turned in haste, and roving still
on starless waters far astray
at last he came to Night of Naught,
and passed, and never sight he saw
of shining shore or light he sought.
The winds of fear came driving him,
and blindly in the foam he fled
from west to east, and errandless,
unheralded, he homeward sped.

In might the Fe�norians
that swore the unforgotten oath
brought war into Arvernien
with burning and with broken troth;
and Elwing from her fastness dim
then cast her in the waters wide,
but like a mew was swiftly borne,
uplifted o�er the roaring tide.
Through hopeless night she came to him,
and flame was in the darkness lit,
more bright than light of diamond
the fire upon her carcanet.
The Silmaril she bound on him,
and crowned him with the living light,
and dauntless then with burning brow
he turned his prow at middle-night.
Beyond the world, beyond the Sea,
then free and strong a storm arose,
a wind of power in Tarmenel;
by paths that seldom mortal goes
from Middle-earth on mighty breath
as flying wraith across the grey
and long-forsaken seas distressed
from East to West he passed away.

Through Evernight he back was borne
on black and roaring waves that ran
o�er leagues unlit and foundered shores
that drowned before the Days began,
until he heard on strands of pearl
where ends the world the music long,
where ever-foaming billows roll
the yellow gold and jewels wan.
He saw the mountain silent rise
where twilight lies upon the knees
of Valinor, and Eldamar
beheld afar beyond the seas.
A wanderer escaped from night
to haven white he came at last,
to Elvenhome the green and fair
where keen the air, where pale as glass
beneath the Hill of Ilmarin
a-glimmer in a valley sheer
the lamplit towers of Tirion
are mirrored on the Shadowmere.

He tarried there from errantry,
and melodies they taught to him,
and sages old him marvels told,
and harps of gold they brought to him.
They clothed him then in elven-white,
and seven lights before him sent,
as through the Calacirian
to hidden land forlorn he went.
He came unto the timeless halls,
where shining fall the countless years,
and endless reigns the Elder King,
forever king on mountain sheer;
and words unheard were spoken then
of folk of Men and Elven-kin,
beyond the world were visions showed
forbid to those that dwell therein.

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elvenglass
with crystal keel; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore, on silver mast
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame
of fire unstained by Elbereth
herself was set, who thither came
and wings immortal made for him,
and laid on him undying doom
to sail the shoreless skies and come
behind the Sun and light of Moon.

From Evereven�s lofty hills
where softly silver fountains fall
his wings him bore, a wandering light,
beyond the mighty Mountain Wall.
From World�s End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star
on high above the mists he came,
a distant flame before the Sun,
a wonder ere the waking dawn
where grey the Norland waters run.

And over Middle-earth he passed
and heard at last the weeping sore
of women and of elven-maids
in Elder Days, in years of yore.
But on him mighty doom was laid,
till Moon should fade, an orb�d star,
to pass, and tarry nevermore
on Hither Shores where mortals are;
till end of Days on errand high,
a herald bright that never rests,
to bear his burning lamp afar,
the Flammifer of Westernesse.

skasion fucked around with this message at 00:46 on May 21, 2021

# ? May 21, 2021 00:40

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Unkempt posted:

Where's this one to be found?

Here�s this version. It�s from Treason of Isengard, not Return of the Shadow: this is the transitional version where the poem switches from being light hearted nonsense about a little fairy guy having adventures with bugs, to being an elaboration of the voyage of Earendil (though he is still unnamed, unlike in the version in LOTR).

quote:

There was a gallant passenger
a messenger, a mariner:
he built a boat and gilded her
and silver oars he fashioned her;
her sails he wove of gossamer
and blossom of the cherry-tree,
and lightly as a feather
in the weather went she merrily.

He floated from a haven fair
of maiden-hair and everfern;
the waterfalls he proudly rode
where loudly flowed the Merryburn;
and dancing on the foam he went
on roving bent from hitherland
from Evermorning journeying,
while murmuring the River ran
to valleys in the Gloaming fields;
and slowly then on pillow cool
he laid his head, and fast asleep
he passed the Weepingwillow Pool.

The windy reeds were whispering,
and mists were in the meadow-land,
and down the River hurried him
and carried him to Shadowland.
The Sea beside a stony shore
there lonely roared, and under Moon
a wind arose and wafted him
a castaway beyond the Moon.
He woke again forlorn afar
by shores that are without a name,
and by the Shrouded Island o'er
the Silent Water floating came.

He passed the archipelagoes
where yellow grows the marigold,
and landed on the Elven-strands
of silver sand and fallow gold,
beneath the Hill of Ilmarin
where glimmer in a valley sheer
the lights of Elven Tirion,
the city on the Shadowmere.
He tarried there his errantry,
and melodies they taught to him,
and lays of old, and marvels told,
and harps of gold they brought to him.

Of glamoury he tidings heard,
and binding words of sigaldry;
of wars they spoke with Enemies
that venom used and wizardry.
In panoply of Elvenkings,
in silver rings they armoured him;
his shield they writ with elven-runes,
that never wound did harm to him.
His bow was made of dragon-horn,
his arrows shorn of ebony,
of woven steel his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony.
His sword was hewn of adamant,
and valiant the might of it;
his helm a shining emerald,
and terrible the light of it.

His boat anew for him they built
of timber felled in Elvenhome;
upon the mast a star was set,
its spars were wet with silver foam;
and wings of swans they made for it,
and laid on it a mighty doom
to sail the seas of wind and come
where glimmering runs the gliding moon.

From Evereven's lofty hills,
where softly spill the fountains tall,
he passed away, a wandering light
beyond the mighty Mountain-wall;
and unto Evernight he came,
and like a flaming star he fell:
his javelins of diamond
as fire into the darkness fell.

Ungoliant abiding there
in Spider-lair her thread entwined;
for endless years a gloom she spun
the Sun and Moon in web to wind.
His sword was like a flashing light
as flashing bright he smote with it;
he shore away her poisoned neb,
her noisome webs he broke with it.

Then shining as a risen star
from prison bars he sped away,
and borne upon a blowing wind
on flowing wings he fled away.
To Evernoon at last he came,
and passed the flame-encircled hill,
where wells of gold for Melineth
her never-resting workers build.

The seven-branched Levin-tree
on Heavenfield he shining saw
upflowering from its writhen root;
a living fruit of fire it bore.
The lightning in his face was lit,
ablaze were set his tresses wan,
his eyes with levin-beams were bright,
and gleaming white his vessel shone.
From World's End then he turned away
and yearned again to seek afar
his land beneath the morning light
and burning like a beacon star
on high above the mists he came,
a distant flame, a marineer
on winds unearthly swiftly borne,
uplifted o'er the Shadowmere.
He passed o'er Carakilian,
where Tirion the Hallowed stands;
the sea far under loudly roared
on cloudy shores in Shadowland.

And over Evermorn he passed,
and saw at last the haven fair,
far under by the Merry-burn
in everfern and maidenhair.
But on him mighty doom was laid,
till moon should fade and all the stars,
to pass, and tarry never more
on hither shore where mortals are,
for ever still a passenger,
a messenger, to never rest,
to bear his burning lamp afar,
the Flammifer of Westernesse.

skasion fucked around with this message at 01:09 on May 21, 2021

# ? May 21, 2021 01:01

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

Man that just fills the mouth like wine.

# ? May 21, 2021 03:49

galagazombie: Oct 31, 2011; A silly little mouse!

A full version of the War of Wrath would be primo van painting material. �Man on flying ship with +10 enchanted stone stabs mountain sized dragon to death� would be amazing in prose.

# ? May 22, 2021 22:51

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

# ? Jun 3, 2021 14:12

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Okay I'm watching the Extended Edition of ROTK and why is this extended scene at the Grey Havens necessary?? You could've done Tom Bombadil or the scouring of the Shire easily if you just excise this endless sequence. Why?? I am looking forward to the discourse coming around to thinking the Jackson movies are bad.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 03:48

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

You will be waiting a very long time.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:00

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

The LOTR movies are largely good, though as adaptations go I would argue that ROTK is the weakest. However all three movies are very good films in their own right. They aren't perfect, but I honestly can't imagine a better live action version being made in the current movie making climate.

Hobbit movies are not very good though.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:06

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

ROTK extended is dire, almost everything it added was better left out.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:15

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

skasion posted:

ROTK extended is dire, almost everything it added was better left out.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but the theatrical cut is the superior version in my opinion. The worst thing Peter Jackson did (Frodo sending Sam home) is present in both.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:22

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

I wouldn't want to miss out on the Mouth of Sauron.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:27

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

Bongo Bill posted:

I wouldn't want to miss out on the Mouth of Sauron.

Mouth of Sauron would be a good scene if they didn't loving murder him while negotiating with him, something they specifically did not do in the books because of how evil it would be.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:29

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

I just like watching him talk.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:32

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Bongo Bill posted:

I wouldn't want to miss out on the Mouth of Sauron.

Amazingly gonzo design but terrible scene

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:33

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

skasion posted:

Amazingly gonzo design but terrible scene

The design work on so much of those movies is insanely good.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:50

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Worst change in the Extended Cut is that they used a different take of Gandalf smoking with Pippin and Ian McKellan ended up coughing out his lines super pissed off rather than being amused and slightly proud of Pippin's vow to Denethor.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 04:58

Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

sweet geek swag posted:

They aren't perfect, but I honestly can't imagine a better live action version being made in the current movie making climate.

Remember all the stuff that came out about how the studio wanted to interfere in the LOTR movies, "Couldn't we just have 2 hobbits?" etc.

I've always been astonished just how faithful they actually managed to make them.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 09:18

galagazombie: Oct 31, 2011; A silly little mouse!

Deptfordx posted:

I've always been astonished just how faithful they actually managed to make them.

I have a theory that the bigwigs were trying to use LotR as a Star Trek: The Motion Picture style tax dodge where they expected it to fail (after all no one wants fantasy movies) and wrote the costs of countless never finished projects into it. So they never interfered and ruined it because they didn�t want to be the one holding the bag for its inevitable failure. Plus there�s the general disdain the Hollywood elite has for Sci-Fi an Fantasy no matter how many billions of dollars it makes them.

# ? Jun 5, 2021 01:46

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

PJ was a pretty big (lol) name back then so idk

# ? Jun 5, 2021 01:55

Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

I don't think he was?

His biggest film was Heavenly Creatures, and his last movie before LOTR was The Frighteners, which was a big box office failure.

He basically got the gig himself as I understand it.

# ? Jun 5, 2021 09:08

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

HC was a huge critical success

# ? Jun 5, 2021 11:47

Imagined: Feb 2, 2007

euphronius posted:

HC was a huge critical success

Yes, but nothing about it screams "Let's give this man a billion dollars to make a trilogy of films based on a famously (heretofore) "unfilmable" series of books."

# ? Jun 5, 2021 12:17

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

euphronius posted:

HC was a huge critical success

Sure, and that maybe gets him the films, but what on earth gets him the budget he had?

# ? Jun 5, 2021 12:53

Imagined: Feb 2, 2007

Ravenfood posted:

Sure, and that maybe gets him the films, but what on earth gets him the budget he had?

Money he then took to an island literally as far away from Hollywood supervision as it is possible to be while still being on the planet Earth.

# ? Jun 5, 2021 13:19

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

Maybe he had an unconventional uncle who left him a surprisingly valuable inheritance, or something.

# ? Jun 5, 2021 13:19

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Lotr was �only� 90 million per movie or so

New Zealand does a lot of work

# ? Jun 5, 2021 13:23

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

Film budgets have gone truly insane in the last 20 years so its not surprising that it was "only" 90 million a pop. Marvel couldn't even poo poo out one of their more generic films for less than 200

# ? Jun 5, 2021 13:52

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Doing three at once was a major cost savings and as I mentioned �exotic� New Zealand does a lot of work. I don�t think the actors were expensive either as no one was a huge star

# ? Jun 5, 2021 13:59

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

euphronius posted:

Doing three at once was a major cost savings and as I mentioned �exotic� New Zealand does a lot of work. I don�t think the actors were expensive either as no one was a huge star

Cate Blanchett, Elijah Wood, and Liv Tyler were the biggest names. I guess Ian McKellen was just breaking through into A-list status, as he was cast for X-Men and LOTR at about the same time. After that uh Sean Astin, Hugo Weaving and John Rhys-Davies were known quantities too, mostly as "oh well it's that guy from Indiana Jones and Sliders ok" kinda thing.

# ? Jun 5, 2021 14:13

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Right none of them were the highest most expensive tier (20 million per movie for example )

Also I think LOTR is extremely filmable. The most important scenes are all very visual. There are obviously a few few hard things to adapt (Sauron isn�t ever in a scene)

# ? Jun 5, 2021 14:21

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

euphronius posted:

Right none of them were the highest most expensive tier (20 million per movie for example )

Also I think LOTR is extremely filmable. The most important scenes are all very visual. There are obviously a few few hard things to adapt (Sauron isn�t ever in a scene)

He is but only for a hot second, right before he dies

# ? Jun 5, 2021 14:57

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

The biggest issue for �filmability� was always the hobbits, like do you do the Willow thing or what.

Jackson cracked that nut

# ? Jun 5, 2021 16:33

Imagined: Feb 2, 2007

Lot of 20/20 hindsight on this page.

# ? Jun 5, 2021 16:39

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 20:50

Pham Nuwen: Oct 30, 2010

Data Graham posted:

The biggest issue for �filmability� was always the hobbits, like do you do the Willow thing or what.

Jackson cracked that nut

Agreed, they did a really good job with the hobbits and although I know a bit about the forced perspective tricks and what-not, I'd love to watch a really good technical making-of for the movies if anybody knows one.

# ? Jun 5, 2021 16:40

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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