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Captain Oblivious posted:. I mean that's kinda the main complaint people have about W5? Like nothing ever matters is frankly a depressing premise to base a game on and in the corbook at least doesn't even entertain the idea of the PC being the ones to unfuck the state of things. That and the core books writing team screwed over the guy whose job is to make the native American representation less shallow, who as far as I can tell has genuine native American ancestry. Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 03:00
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:I mean that's kinda the main complaint people have about W5? Like nothing ever matters is frankly a depressing premise to base a game on and it doesn't even entertain the idea of the PC being the ones to unfuck the state of things. Original Werewolf is the exact same way wrt the Garou being big dumb assholes who have only ever made things worse. Textually, it is not hard to make the case that Garou have historically been the most enthusiastic servants of the Wyrm, operating like an unchecked cancer growing beyond their place and killing healthy cells (other Changing Breeds, the Pure Tribes) en masse. The solution of course is to maybe stop being traditionalist reactionaries because Garou traditions are worthless.
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Apr 29, 2024 03:05
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Captain Oblivious posted:Original Werewolf is the exact same way wrt the Garou being big dumb assholes who have only ever made things worse. Textually, it is not hard to make the case that Garou have historically been the most enthusiastic servants of the Wyrm, operating like an unchecked cancer growing beyond their place and killing healthy cells (other Changing Breeds, the Pure Tribes) en masse. Like sure past werewolf edition has some really problematic aspects (especially 20 anniversary children gaia book). But really most official materials dose acknowledge the problem of the garou nation there are adventures that examine the aforementioned problem with varying degrees of success. Like maybe there’s people who find some aspects of past editions fun and will acknowledge and change the parts that they found problematic rather than nuke the setting and start over? Like that's what make project like werewolf the essentials appealing to fans of the original since they took the same approach as [url=kindred the restless age approach of putting genuine effotlrt resurch to address the problems old lore and up date them to be less offensive.
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Apr 29, 2024 03:56
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what are you talking about
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Apr 29, 2024 04:05
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:Uhh so you're saying that W5 repeating the mastakes (sometimes in worse ways) of the previous editions and maybe I don't know. Addressing them is a good way to do things? No I’m saying that Book of Hungry Names’ specific treatment of the subject matter, which is distinct from both original Werewolf and W5 which are largely interchangeably bad, is pretty good. Werewolf has always been a game with some neat ideas buried among a ton of terrible ones reliant on having a Storyteller that can cherry pick what’s useful to telling a good story.
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Apr 29, 2024 04:07
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This game goes hard, drat
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Apr 29, 2024 04:08
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Basic Chunnel posted:This game goes hard, drat My only regrets are that A) I think the gorgon mask interaction bugged for me supposedly you can use it to go rescue Black Tarn if you’re a Black Fury which I was and B) I think the game could stand to be clearer on what the five forms are actually doing. What exact effect do Glabro and Hispo have on checks? I’m mostly guessworking that. I did report a bug that was fixed in today’s patch at least. Fighting the drone was mistakenly feeding into a post encounter scene that acted as if you hadn’t done that
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Apr 29, 2024 04:11
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I've been working on the assumption, based only on the revised rules (so based on nothing relevant), that glabro through lupus enhance senses. Glabro is +str, crinos +str/dex/stam, hispo +dex/stam, lupus +dex maybe extra +senses.
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Apr 29, 2024 04:14
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:I've been working on the assumption, based only on the revised rules (so based on nothing relevant), that glabro through lupus enhance senses. Glabro is +str, crinos +str/dex/stam, hispo +dex/stam, lupus +dex maybe extra +senses. Yeah that’s the trick is sometimes the narrative text implies Glabro is also more agile but ???? I ain’t sure.
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Apr 29, 2024 04:31
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:I mean that's kinda the main complaint people have about W5? Like nothing ever matters is frankly a depressing premise to base a game on and in the corbook at least doesn't even entertain the idea of the PC being the ones to unfuck the state of things. Welcome to the World of Darkness. Everything sucks, so go fix it somehow or make your patch of it suck less. That's literally what these games are about. Also high quality politics, but it's mostly the other thing.
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Apr 29, 2024 05:12
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Captain Oblivious posted:No I’m saying that Book of Hungry Names’ specific treatment of the subject matter, which is distinct from both original Werewolf and W5 which are largely interchangeably bad, is pretty good. Yes I agree that Book of Hungry Names did a fine job of expanding the premise of W5 core book provides to make a compelling story. Though that does leaves with the question on why the corebook is so dammed bare. Like they should just adapt the game into a adventure since by all accounts this is a better introduction to W5 than the corebook. Hell for all I know this game probably counters all elders are bastards and being garou sucks that the corebook puts out. Edit: Also didn't werewolf the forsaken touch on the same theams of w5 or even Book of Hungry names. Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 06:57
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lmao the game literally just ascends into Twin Peaks. Evil spirit powerlines that have you suddenly turn up at the Roadhouse.
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Apr 29, 2024 11:14
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:lmao the game literally just ascends into Twin Peaks. Evil spirit powerlines that have you suddenly turn up at the Roadhouse. And that’s why it’s great.
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Apr 29, 2024 11:54
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It’s hard to imagine romancing anyone but Nin in Werewolf when Nin is so loving funny.
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Apr 29, 2024 13:19
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:lmao the game literally just ascends into Twin Peaks. Evil spirit powerlines that have you suddenly turn up at the Roadhouse. Really? Here I thought W5 was de-empathizing the spirt world stuff since the wolves need a gift to enter the umbra and staying in the umbra for extended amount of time is un healthy.
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Apr 29, 2024 13:44
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:Really? Here I thought W5 was de-empathizing the spirt world stuff since the wolves need a gift to enter the umbra and staying in the umbra for extended amount of time is un healthy. That’s still true. They make a point to emphasize that the Umbra itself is extremely risky to interact with. You very rarely have the opportunity to physically enter into it, when you do the pack is all “whoa hold up, let’s talk about this.” Even looking directly into it tends to be traumatic, brief, and very reminiscent of “Five Photographs”. Speaking of, one of the highest bits of praise i can give for the game is that once it starts rolling, a whole lot of chapter premises are on the level of the Horror Recognition Guide, the high water mark of quality fiction for the entire 30-ish year history of the franchise. It helps that it leans into woof’s inherent power fantasy to allow you direct interaction with threats / the weird poo poo happening. There’s a very Forsaken-y emphasis on the fact that when you get down to it, there’s very little you can’t survive as a pack and very few things that can survive you — as opposed to Hunter or even Vampire emphasizing your fragility — but you’re just one squad, and you have to be strategic as well as tactical. I’m running a skill-focused Glass Walker and I’ve shifted maybe twice in 10 chapters, playing recon and support for my wrecking ball of a pack. I’m curious to go back as a face tank — the game does a very good job of rewarding you for running down intel and context in advance of action, so I’m wondering if it falls into the trap of landing comparatively Pyrrhic victories if you run as a war form hammer treating everything like a nail… But then again, and again unlike a solo-ish RPG such as Vampire, you’ve got a pack of versatile GMPCs backing you up in nearly every circumstance, and as you go about doing tasks your pack is usually covering other angles. When you’re prompted to explicitly assign someone to a task, I think that’s more or less meant to be taken as temporarily depriving yourself of that character’s utility as a backgrounded support asset for the next scene. Anyway, I’m pretty rusty on 2E cosmology, but BoHN seems to suggest there are “thinner places” or DMZs (in the IT sense of the term) which are not full Umbra but a layer of reality at which certain spirits and their works can be safely observed and communicated with. It’s strongly emphasized if you can see into the Umbra without deliberate rituals to do so, that’s Extremely Bad News for that area. BoHN (and I assume 2E) present the titular Apocalypse as more or less the widespread Umbral equivalent of bleached ocean reef. Even in places where the Wyrm isn’t actively attacking the spirit world, it’s a bad place to be, and any open door into it is a critical problem. Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 17:47
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Captain Oblivious posted:It’s hard to imagine romancing anyone but Nin in Werewolf when Nin is so loving funny. "Unsure of how to end the social interaction, she gives you a candy bar."
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Apr 29, 2024 21:23
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I mean you could point out that she’s literally a different species than you and also that, following the distressing traditions of anime, she just happens to be a fully grown adult who’s also less than 10 years old
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Apr 29, 2024 21:46
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Ok but her SOUL is over 18.
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Apr 29, 2024 22:21
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Dawgstar posted:"Unsure of how to end the social interaction, she gives you a candy bar." This is the best part of Nin. At no point is she portrayed as incompetent or helpless/naive. Just, really loving weird. Being born a wolf rather than a person does that.
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Apr 29, 2024 22:36
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I did the first few chapters for free of Book of Hungry Names and really didn't like it, does the vibe change later on? It just seemed to be really lovely and none of the options I got as the character were interesting.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:03
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If you’re in chapter 3 and still not into it it’s probably just not your thing. The first chapter is miserable because you’re in a dying pack full of doomer elders but once you’re in Northhampton things SHOULD be pretty fun unless you’re just like fundamentally not into the story conceits.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:10
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CainFortea posted:I did the first few chapters for free of Book of Hungry Names and really didn't like it, does the vibe change later on? It just seemed to be really lovely and none of the options I got as the character were interesting. How far in did you get? Later chapters are a very different vibe. The one big critique I have at this point (aside from iOS’s Choice of Games app being buggy and eating a mobile save) is that getting established with an apt and a job is a long drag. I’ve seen Repo Man! I know life on skid row sucks. Let’s move it along
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Apr 29, 2024 23:17
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Also don't think you're going to join a tribe any time soon in the story. Gifts are also frustratingly specific, many of them requiring specific tribe membership. "Oh, you're not a Black Fury Theurge? Make like a tree and get outta here." And so on.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:24
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Book of Hungry Names is pretty consistently laugh out loud funny. Once you've assembled the full pack there's just a lot of fun goofy banter slice of life moments in between the extremely high concept mysticism. "Thank you ma'am I'm an ecoterrorist". Or SockSock Hey Podge what's your worst nerd opinion SockSock Something that will cause a fight at a cocktail party CottageCortex Princess Leia is Jewish coded because she smuggled secrets about a tool of mass murder from an evil empire CottageCortex Just like the Rosenbergs SockSock um SockSock okay what's your second worst nerd opinion CottageCortex "Atlantic City' is the best song about Bushido Dawgstar posted:Also don't think you're going to join a tribe any time soon in the story. Gifts are also frustratingly specific, many of them requiring specific tribe membership. "Oh, you're not a Black Fury Theurge? Make like a tree and get outta here." And so on. Specifically you don't join a tribe until you've done 2 out of 3 pack recruitment quests. Gifts are specific because there's a loving ton of them between the three spiritual regions. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 23:33
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goddamnit you assholes made me drop 15 bucks on another interactive novel >
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Apr 29, 2024 23:35
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Basic Chunnel posted:How far in did you get? Later chapters are a very different vibe. The one big critique I have at this point (aside from iOS’s Choice of Games app being buggy and eating a mobile save) is that getting established with an apt and a job is a long drag. I’ve seen Repo Man! I know life on skid row sucks. Let’s move it along I got to the point where your character "fails" their challenge and everyone shits on them and being shitheads I just got a vibe that the story is written because whoever wrote it thinks that WW is for suffering and no good things can happen.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:36
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CainFortea posted:I got to the point where your character "fails" their challenge and everyone shits on them and being shitheads Yeah that's your incentive to leave. You're in the very first chapter and the story is establishing how broken this place is and how you need to leave. Better things are only possible once you extricate yourself from the toxic doomer pack.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:37
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CainFortea posted:I got to the point where your character "fails" their challenge and everyone shits on them and being shitheads Oh yeah keep going, those guys are assholes. The grim stuff isn't over, but you meet some much nicer people*
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Apr 29, 2024 23:39
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Thanks, i'll give it another look.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:40
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You get to leave them on read once you have headed off, it's very satisfying
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Apr 29, 2024 23:43
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Don’t let them trick you. Vampires rule, werewolves drool
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Apr 29, 2024 23:58
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Basic Chunnel posted:
Yeah but if this is the deraction that WTA is going then it's poses the question of "why not just play/make Forsaken " like there plenty of forsaken fans feel left out to dry by parawolf and they won't be content with playing a version and as far as they're concerned is a subpar forsaken rip off with shallower lore and clunker mancanics. Like how easy is it to reskin the whole book as a Forsaken game? Really The only thing that would differentiate W5 from Forsaken is the possibility of a rebuilding the Garou nation plot line. But uh I doubt the current (I must be clear TTRPG not the game) writers could actually pull it off in a satisfying way. On that note what is the game stance on the elders and the garou nation as a whole? Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 00:28
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Book of Hungry Names doesn’t care much about the concept of the Garou Nation as a whole. This is a local story. The Garou Nation only matters insofar as local persons have thoughts or opinions about it. All Elders are bastards. This should not come as a surprise when the story of Werewolf is the story of hidebound traditionalism biting them in the rear end every single day.
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Apr 30, 2024 00:31
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Captain Oblivious posted:
Well the elders from Regnade produced Adventure reclamation comes off as pretty reasonable for the situation they're in and will throw they weight behind the pregens and will seek peace with a rival pack to take back the crean.
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Apr 30, 2024 00:41
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Dawgstar posted:Also don't think you're going to join a tribe any time soon in the story. Gifts are also frustratingly specific, many of them requiring specific tribe membership. "Oh, you're not a Black Fury Theurge? Make like a tree and get outta here." And so on. Really, the problem is the layout. You see where the design makes sense with the skill trainers — their offerings don’t fall along rigid lines of “physical trainer / mental trainer / social trainer” even when the system is designed around those distinctions — because the scheme serves the fiction (you get face time with everyone even if you’re going for a specialist build) and the economy workflow is a one-touch menu. You go to your guy, you know what you can get with what you have, you select it, you have it. That’s not really the case for spirits because where the skill trainers are a one-touch menu, each spirit is basically its own little storefront: you have to “walk in” to each, get their pitch and their requirements, and then confirm (or, probably, talk to the hand) from there. I think if you visualize the design as a tree diagram, the obvious ideal alternative would be, instead of three central hub points with ~10 paths to gift shops (npi) each, you insert a layer between hub areas and gifts, grouped by tribe. You see the Black Furies tent, go inside it, there are all your Black Furies-relevant gifts. You can still window shop if you want, but it’s now easier to grasp precisely what a tribe offers, and you actually have hope of tracking what’s relevant to you. Otoh such groupings and spirits being all in one place might be difficult to justify in-fiction; more importantly and obviously, there are restrictions not based on tribe, and also exceptions to tribe exclusivity (eg, a gift might be available to Black Furies or woofs of a certain moon zodiac, and in both cases they have to hate humans). But even then, by the time you get to that point, your moon zodiac is fixed, and I think most players will be looking at gifts in the context of their build, which will be driven in large part by tribe. The Porcupine’s story slaps, though.
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Apr 30, 2024 00:44
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Anyway once you get to that point you will feel just a little bit of what it’s like to try and keep all the game mechanics straight in PnP
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Apr 30, 2024 00:59
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:Well the elders from Regnade produced Adventure reclamation comes off as pretty reasonable for the situation they're in and will throw they weight behind the pregens and will seek peace with a rival pack to take back the crean. What do you mean by this? There's only two examples of active rival packs in the story that I remember in the story, a member of another pack that engages in a traditional Garou duel to earn the right to take on checking out the lost caern (whose sole purpose is to up the villain's body count should the players lose that pack member's challenge) and the other one aren't really rivals at all, just the original caretakers betrayed by one of their own after decide to side with a Bane spirit. Sure, in the extended ending the caern is handed back to that pack's lone and non-corrupted survivor, but that's a suggested way to kick off a chronicle, with the player pack invited to take on another task immediately after. I might have forgotten something, but those are the only packs in there that stand out in my mind. Setting that aside, Reclamation is either a demo or a starter story for new Werewolf groups, and The Book of Hungry Names is a text adventure for a single player with a clear narrative. They have two different purposes, with one trying to be an open launch pad for folks coming in and the other being a fully fleshed out story for both new players and veterans alike. Not to mention elders being "nice" in one story doesn't mean they can't be bastards later. The protagonists of Reclamation are doing things on their orders with little assumption the player pack won't cross their orders; that's not going to be the case for very long should it turn into a full chronicle. W5 may be a reboot (sort of...) but it's still pretty all-in on "the past traditions and the assumptions of the Garou are their worst possible enemy," it's just that in this timeline it's led to the Nation's outright decline as opposed to being a very serious threat to it. Anyways, I'm pretty excited to play BoHN! Night Road was super fun, so I'm glad to hear this one's another good time!
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Apr 30, 2024 01:34
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Captain Oblivious posted:
You know I personally think having a though line of rebuilding the Garou nation thought out the game line is a good story choice if W5 want to retain any player base and well give them a general direction to work towards. And the draw of this goal would be compelling that it might draw back some people that was put off by W5's corebook and the controversy surrounding it back in. Of course that assumes the writers working future supplements is as competent as the people working on Book of Hungry Names are. Like the above premise can easily devolve into a of being a long conveyor belt of adventures consisting of MetaPlot characters do the major story beats while all the PC watch from the sidelines. Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 01:42
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If you go to your chosen tribe's patron spirit it does tell you which other spirits are compatible and incompatible, and incompatible spirits don't have greyed out text that would allow you to select it if you met the other requirements. It's a convoluted system, but I think it's better than you seem to think.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:25
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