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Back Hack posted:Welp, I think this latest announcement of no level cap has broken most of you, there is no longer a divide between those being ironic and unironic. Ironic enjoyment isn't actually real, it's just a social smokescreen terrible people put around the things they want to do or believe to try to keep from having to own how awful their desires are.
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Aug 6, 2015 23:50
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Did they even say ANYTHING about a karma system
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Aug 6, 2015 23:51
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frajaq posted:Did they even say ANYTHING about a karma system to be honest, i'd be totally cool if there was no literal good guy/bad guy meter and they just let the consequences of your story related choices play the roll of morality meter. in almost every game with a morality meter it's either poorly implemented, trivially easy to manipulate, or completely irrelevant to the overall story outside of random NPCs who make pithy observations about your deeds (GEE I BET YOU LOVE KICKING BABIES BECAUSE YOU BAD) i know it's a legacy system from FO1/2 and arguably from the alignment system of older D&D but it's just stupid now-a-days
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Aug 6, 2015 23:58
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That's exactly what I'm hopeful for. I think a karma system would be something Bethesda would confirm/deny pretty fast, specially when they showed dialogue in the footage so far. But then again they didn't clarify about the lvling system so vOv
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Aug 7, 2015 00:08
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Shugojin posted:VATS em in the wing and then they limp around sadly. While I know this is true, I can't look objectively at the situation when I see a cazador. I just immediately lose my poo poo when I see those bright red wings flapping away off in the distance. I have to whip out a
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Aug 7, 2015 00:11
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They're taking their loving time because they think they need to piecemeal feed hype and info on fallout 4 for the next 4 months. It's not the end of the world to just say "Yeah, Karma doesn't matter anymore and its basically ESO where people randomly comment on how high your SPECIAL or Skills are, with maybe a few lines about what factions you join or what story missions you do."
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Aug 7, 2015 00:13
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Stalker is the opposite of pretty. All of them shouldn't be that ugly and even alongside contemporary games it was factually unplayably ugly. Will never understand the appeal of that game but I'm glad people can enjoy it. I think Metro is the better russian post-apocalypse shooter.
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Aug 7, 2015 00:15
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homeless poster posted:i know it's a legacy system from FO1/2 and arguably from the alignment system of older D&D but it's just stupid now-a-days A D&D style alignment system would actually be pretty cool in Fallout. Instead of just Evil/Good points you can also get Chaos/Lawful points, so doing say a morally gray mission for the Brotherhood where you steal a communitys prewar generator might gain you Evil/Lawful points, but saving them gets you Good/Chaos points. Raiders like you if you are both Chaotic and Evil, wandering merchants like you if you are Chaotic and Good, towns folk like you if you are Lawful and Good, the Enclave likes you if you are Lawful and Evil, etc.
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Aug 7, 2015 00:17
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Rutibex posted:A D&D style alignment system would actually be pretty cool in Fallout. Instead of just Evil/Good points you can also get Chaos/Lawful points, so doing say a morally gray mission for the Brotherhood where you steal a communitys prewar generator might gain you Evil/Lawful points, but saving them gets you Good/Chaos points. nononononononono. d&d style alignment is dumb and bad and should not be emulated in modern game design. there are a variety of reasons why, but i think in this case one of the most pertinent is that bethesda does not have the creativity or the writing chops to create a scenario where "you do a morally gray mission for the Brotherhood". it will immediately boil down to BoS/Merchants/Junktown GOOD and Raiders/Enclave/Mutants EVIL and it'll just be so hackneyed that it'll be painful what you are describing is almost exactly how the faction system in NV functioned and it was much better implemented that the old karma system. the fact that the karma system was barely functional in NV should be celebrated as them phasing it out.
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Aug 7, 2015 00:46
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homeless poster posted:nononononononono. d&d style alignment is dumb and bad and should not be emulated in modern game design. there are a variety of reasons why, but i think in this case one of the most pertinent is that bethesda does not have the creativity or the writing chops to create a scenario where "you do a morally gray mission for the Brotherhood". it will immediately boil down to BoS/Merchants/Junktown GOOD and Raiders/Enclave/Mutants EVIL and it'll just be so hackneyed that it'll be painful I'd be in favor of abandoning it all together. Bethesda hasn't really had that many morally gray quests, at least going back to Oblivion so what is the point of it? The only thing I can think of is what perk you can pick up at max level which doesn't really justify the system. With a voiced character I think it'll be weird too since a player isn't going to have the ability to interpret how things are said. To clarify, you might get a situation where you're a super nice dude when you interact with NPCs, but you steal everything and murder everyone. Doesn't make sense.
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Aug 7, 2015 00:49
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King Vidiot posted:While I know this is true, I can't look objectively at the situation when I see a cazador. I just immediately lose my poo poo when I see those bright red wings flapping away off in the distance. I have to whip out a Riot Shotgun + hand-load buckshot = Cazador AAA
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Aug 7, 2015 00:54
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Hopper posted:Let me remind you of FO3's "achievements": Yeah, but those got patched in later. All games pre-trophy support that got trophy support later sucked.
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Aug 7, 2015 00:56
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I don't remember clearly but I'm pretty sure Fallout 3 had achievements at launch.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:00
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2house2fly posted:I don't remember clearly but I'm pretty sure Fallout 3 had achievements at launch. Did it? I thought it was pre-trophies. I could be wrong on that. EDIT: July 2, 2008 for trophy support, October 28, 2008 for FO3's launch. Guess I was wrong. Also, now that I think back, 360 had achievements at launch, right? I think the case could be made though that it was a new-ish system across the board, so well balanced and creative achievements weren't that common. It's still an issue even today, like when games have trophies for online play. LastGoodBoy fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Aug 7, 2015 |
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Aug 7, 2015 01:02
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JackBadass posted:Did it? I thought it was pre-trophies. I could be wrong on that. xbox360 achievements
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Aug 7, 2015 01:05
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AriadneThread posted:xbox360 achievements Yeah, I remembered that just now. It's in the edit.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:09
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Yeah it's really weird that no role playing game has yet had a non-stupid good/evil mechanic. I give KOTOR half-credit because while the LS/DS was stupid, it kinda had to be to fit the franchise rules e: I guess actually it's not weird at all because you have to boil down to Literally Hitler vs Literally Jesus with no middle ground or someone's gonna get offended because like, the entirety of human history has been wrestling with the idea of good and evil
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Aug 7, 2015 01:09
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Karma systems are broken as gently caress and I'm not sure there's a way to make them work good. It's always something like "You murdered a whole town of innocent people. That's just as bad as stealing a broken 2x4 from behind this guy's shack. Here's your goth make-up and devil horns". Either that or you play as a "good guy" which just amounts to not getting the cool gear and not having as many useful items. Being good in these games feels like playing with your left hand tied behind your back.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:15
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Shugojin posted:Yeah it's really weird that no role playing game has yet had a non-stupid good/evil mechanic.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:17
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Shugojin posted:Yeah it's really weird that no role playing game has yet had a non-stupid good/evil mechanic. Skyrim just has a bounty system if you steal stuff/kill people.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:20
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Witcher does it right. Better when most of the time there is no clear answer and the consequences of your decisions result in different events down the line, or at least differences in how certain characters or factions perceive you. Having a bar that tracks how many times you pull an item out of a drawer in some random rear end building that happens to be "owned" by raiders even is stupid.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:21
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computer parts posted:Skyrim just has a bounty system if you steal stuff/kill people. That'd work great in FO4. "Hey, you stole an owned empty tin can. Here's a 500 cap bounty and three Talon mercs every 10 minutes until you pay off your heinous crimes!"
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Aug 7, 2015 01:23
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Shugojin posted:Yeah it's really weird that no role playing game has yet had a non-stupid good/evil mechanic. Trapezium Dave posted:Jade Empire tried to continue KOTOR's approach and make it interesting by making the "evil" path more a philosophy of conflict leading to strength of character, but in the end the writers threw up their hands and wrote that as literally kicking dogs. Jade Empire and Mass Effect try to make the evil option into pragmatism and tough love to close the gap between Jesus and Hitler playstyles. How well that works is up to the individual. KOTOR was saddled with the LS/DS nonsense but took the opposite approach of recasting the "good guy" option into something shittier wherein the Jedi council particularly in KOTOR1 were the paper pushing nanny staters of the universe. You could see why someone might go and join up with the Sith to actually Get poo poo Done for once. Fallout doesn't really need a morality system since it tries to do neither of the above with it.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:23
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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DeusExMachinima posted:Mass Effect try to make the evil option into pragmatism and tough love to close the gap between Jesus and Hitler playstyles. Yeah, punching out the journalist lady was a very pragmatic move.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:28
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JackBadass posted:Yeah, punching out the journalist lady was a very pragmatic move. And before that he smashed on the dude having a nervous breakdown.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:30
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Meridian posted:And before that he smashed on the dude having a nervous breakdown. Nobody solves problems like Mass Effect.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:32
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JackBadass posted:Yeah, punching out the journalist lady was a very pragmatic move. Comes with the Dirty Harry-style rear end in a top hat territory. Anyway I said whether it works is up to the individual. Shep can really be downright evil and genocidal in ME3 in particular more than once, Bioware drove right off that cliff IMHO.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:33
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JackBadass posted:Nobody solves problems like Mass Effect. I mean it was over the top, but I still enjoyed it. Don't want that kind of swing in Fallout though.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:33
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DeusExMachinima posted:Comes with the Dirty Harry-style rear end in a top hat territory. Anyway I said whether it works is up to the individual. Shep can really be downright evil and genocidal in ME3 in particular more than once, Bioware drove right off that cliff IMHO. Well I mean at least half the first game was driving off cliffs so it's not like it was new territory
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Aug 7, 2015 01:33
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I love Mass Effect 3. GOTY IMO.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:47
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The real question is will FO4's morality system be better than the one in Hatred. That game really set the bar.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:48
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Alain Post posted:I love Mass Effect 3. GOTY IMO. Didn't they pretty much squash any hope for a HD, or even standard re-release of the trilogy on current gen? I haven't had a chance to play through three yet.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:49
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Fallout 3/NV is way more difficult/fun if you use the practice makes perfect mod which sets your level to almost max. Makes super mutants and feral ghoul roamers and talon company mercs serious business if there's more than one.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:50
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precious
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Trapezium Dave posted:Jade Empire tried to continue KOTOR's approach and make it interesting by making the "evil" path more a philosophy of conflict leading to strength of character, but in the end the writers threw up their hands and wrote that as literally kicking dogs. Yeah, the only time that it really felt like they nailed it that I remember was with the slave girl. You have the option of freeing her or handing her a knife and telling her to take her destiny into her own hands and shank the slaver.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:51
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7c Nickel posted:Yeah, the only time that it really felt like they nailed it that I remember was with the slave girl. You have the option of freeing her or handing her a knife and telling her to take her destiny into her own hands and shank the slaver. if i remember right, if you have her kill the slaver to gain her freedom she goes evil and crazy not even 10 seconds after.
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Aug 7, 2015 01:53
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Mass Effect handled karma in a less horrible than normal way in that it barely ever factored into anything more than "Do I want to pick up the toy this lady's baby dropped, or do I want to give the baby a knuckle sandwich?"
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Aug 7, 2015 01:58
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JackBadass posted:Mass Effect handled karma in a less horrible than normal way in that it barely ever factored into anything more than "Do I want to pick up the toy this lady's baby dropped, or do I want to give the baby a knuckle sandwich?" I missed the first one, but the Mass Effect games I played had a loving asinine system that required you to always pick the same karma alignment or you'd be punished for it later.
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Aug 7, 2015 02:07
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Alain Post posted:I love Mass Effect 3. GOTY IMO. How could Mass Effect 3 possibly be the best game of 2012, a year which included such classics as,
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Aug 7, 2015 03:17
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J-Spot posted:I missed the first one, but the Mass Effect games I played had a loving asinine system that required you to always pick the same karma alignment or you'd be punished for it later. Don't get me wrong, it was terrible by merit of it being a karma system, but it wasn't FO3's "You stole a piece of candy. The whole world hates you."
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Aug 7, 2015 03:22
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You hacked someone's computer, you gained evil Karma. You slept in someone's bed, you committed a crime.
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Aug 7, 2015 03:23
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