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Stark Fist posted:The Ken Burns Nam doc is some good poo poo Pro watch if you have 17 hours to spare. Lol at how psychopathic every American president and especially Nixon were.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:28
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So basically for the Vietnamese the Americans were an interlude between fighting the French and the Chinese?
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Jul 2, 2018 15:33
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Ghost Leviathan posted:So basically for the Vietnamese the Americans were an interlude between fighting the French and the Chinese? Yep.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:49
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Didn't they fight the cambodians first
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Jul 2, 2018 15:52
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Stark Fist posted:The Ken Burns Nam doc is some good poo poo
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Jul 2, 2018 15:52
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a hole-y ghost posted:Didn't they fight the cambodians first Yeah that's why the Chinese attacked.
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Jul 4, 2018 10:29
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Ghost Leviathan posted:So basically for the Vietnamese the Americans were an interlude between fighting the French and the Chinese? Most every part of Vietnamese history is an interlude between fighting vastly more powerful enemies. They're historically a pretty badass people.
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Jul 4, 2018 10:38
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Vaginal Vagrant posted:Yeah that's why the Chinese attacked. Also why it was the reserves who had to grind down the Chinese attack, while the regulars were busy with Cambodia.
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Jul 4, 2018 16:24
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Vietnam beat the poo poo out of the USA in the war. Chased the white privileged devils right out of there. Happy 4th losers.
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Jul 5, 2018 03:36
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GORILLA BASTARD posted:Vietnam beat the poo poo out of the USA in the war. Chased the white privileged devils right out of there. Happy 4th losers. Wait. Wha— 
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Jul 5, 2018 03:48
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mau! di di mau!
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Jul 5, 2018 13:05
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COMRADES posted:Well, to start with, the Tet Offensive had less to do with cameras at the US embassy and a general "oh gently caress how do they still have this many people willing to fight? we need to start mobilizing reserves..." moment of clarity in the US command structure. The general in command of the theater requested another 200,000 soldiers for a counteroffensive and then even the warhawks started going "you know what gently caress this actually." Well, according to the views on the war that don't see the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese as as close allies as is often thought, the ultimate victors of the Tet offensive were the North Vietnamese. The US were shown that the war wasn't even close to being over and they were vulnerable to attack anywhere in the country, whereas the Vietcong suffered massive losses amongst its trained fighters, ultimately making them totally second fiddle to the NVA rather than a possible contender once the Americans were driven out.
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Jul 5, 2018 13:11
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It's pretty insane in the interviews with VC soldiers in the Ken Burns documentary when they matter of factly go "yeah so we laid an ambush, killed Americans and downed some helicopters. Half of us got killed". Not all of them mind, I remember one officer who was moved to tears on camera thinking about the comrades he lost.
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Jul 5, 2018 13:19
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red salute for vietnam https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Zb6EUO9DY
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Jul 5, 2018 13:27
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Kazak posted:Thanks guys! and other such things floating around i'm sure
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Jul 5, 2018 13:29
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Tet was just the culmination of what had been going on since 1962- the PAVN's frustration with guerilla warfare and its slow results and gradually escalating the scale of battles in an attempt to oust the SVN government in one fell swoop. These were big company, battalion, regimental, even divisional scale operations borne out of that impatience with insurgency. I don't really think we'll see anything quite like it again. A lot of people think the SVN government hadn't been doing counterinsurgency tactics, when they in fact had, but a strategic hamlet was extremely vulnerable to company and battalion sized PAVN attacks- most of the counterinsurgent strategy is based on an enemy using small-scale incursions and infiltration, whereas the VC worked in much larger numbers with northern support.
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Jul 5, 2018 13:42
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Grevling posted:Pro watch if you have 17 hours to spare. Lol at how psychopathic every American president and especially Nixon were. Shoutout to Nixon for sabotaging peace talks so he could get himself elected. Also, shoutout to LBJ for not outing Nixon for treason on his way out of office. 2 Great Leaders.
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Jul 5, 2018 14:36
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Yay good job everyone dragging out the war unnecessarily 
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Jul 5, 2018 15:17
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dsriggs posted:Shoutout to Nixon for sabotaging peace talks so he could get himself elected. Also, shoutout to LBJ for not outing Nixon for treason on his way out of office. 2 Great Leaders. sucks because apart from Vietnam. LBJ was awesome and probably the last great democrat(jimmy tried but got hosed over a ton and obama was alright but way to  )
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Jul 5, 2018 22:45
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Obama was a right wing dork whose only virtue was being better than Clinton and McCain in 08. LBJ was loving legit, and got hosed around by an idiotic and over reaching CIA, overzealous military advisors, and JFKs leftover people who more or less hated him and thought of him as an outsider. He was surrounded by wolves
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Jul 5, 2018 22:52
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As someone that has gotten many cheevos in Call of Duty and Battlefield games I think I know a thing or two about war.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:15
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What about ARVN, op, you gently caress
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Jul 5, 2018 23:18
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vyst posted:As someone that has gotten many cheevos in Call of Duty and Battlefield games I think I know a thing or two about war. I’ve got diamond camo on sniper rifles on COD WWII, so am something of an expert on that particular conflict. Good to see a fellow history buff as it were.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:22
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Vietciong was the best game btwhosed-Up Little Dog posted:What about ARVN, op, you gently caress
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Jul 5, 2018 23:38
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The arvn guy who managed to unload his chinook on a tiny ship then jump out as he flipped it over was fuckin awesome.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:40
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poverty goat posted:the reason we got loving wrecked in the tet offensive is that the vietcong performed an impossible feat of military logistics which is of immense historical and military significance I think it's more that global politics just prevented us from nuking them into the ground. Like sure you can say their gorilla warfare was effective but every "war" since ww2 that america's been involved in has entirely been a situation where one side is hiding behind their civilians and we're just unwilling to "win" under standards of killing them into submission. It'd be like a boxing match where you demand your opponent wear a blindfold and tie an arm behind their back or you'll kill your entire family.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:00
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ArbitraryC posted:gorilla warfare this would have made vietnam significantly better
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Jul 6, 2018 00:02
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Stexils posted:this would have made vietnam significantly better What troops could withstand a battalion of silverbacks running them down.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:06
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ArbitraryC posted:I think it's more that global politics just prevented us from nuking them into the ground. Like sure you can say their gorilla warfare was effective but every "war" since ww2 that america's been involved in has entirely been a situation where one side is hiding behind their civilians and we're just unwilling to "win" under standards of killing them into submission. It'd be like a boxing match where you demand your opponent wear a blindfold and tie an arm behind their back or you'll kill your entire family. wow, a true blue dugout doug post
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Jul 6, 2018 00:06
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Panzeh posted:wow, a true blue dugout doug post Not saying we should have been involved in the first place.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:11
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ArbitraryC posted:Not saying we should have been involved in the first place. i'm not judging
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Jul 6, 2018 00:12
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Panzeh posted:i'm not judging Just wanted to make it clear I don't actually think we should have just killed a bunch of innocents nor do I agree with our participation in those conflicts in general. That was very far away from my point.
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Jul 6, 2018 00:30
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ArbitraryC posted:I think it's more that global politics just prevented us from nuking them into the ground. Like sure you can say their gorilla warfare was effective but every "war" since ww2 that america's been involved in has entirely been a situation where one side is hiding behind their civilians and we're just unwilling to "win" under standards of killing them into submission. It'd be like a boxing match where you demand your opponent wear a blindfold and tie an arm behind their back or you'll kill your entire family. Lol if you think killing foreign civilians is the thing that stopped America from nuking the poo poo out of Vietnam rather than Russia (and China?) and their nuclear arsenal.
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Jul 6, 2018 01:46
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Vaginal Vagrant posted:Lol if you think killing foreign civilians is the thing that stopped America from nuking the poo poo out of Vietnam rather than Russia (and China?) and their nuclear arsenal. What part of "global politics" was confusing, literally the first thing I said.
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Jul 6, 2018 01:52
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ArbitraryC posted:I think it's more that global politics just prevented us from nuking them into the ground. Like sure you can say their gorilla warfare was effective but every "war" since ww2 that america's been involved in has entirely been a situation where one side is hiding behind their civilians and we're just unwilling to "win" under standards of killing them into submission. It'd be like a boxing match where you demand your opponent wear a blindfold and tie an arm behind their back or you'll kill your entire family. A win is a win
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Jul 6, 2018 03:23
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I think we could have won the war if we had been fighting in the US instead of Vietnam. But then it wouldn't have made sense to call it the Vietnam War so we were stuck doing it over there. It really was just bad luck.
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Jul 6, 2018 03:45
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Lyndon B Johnson named his penis Jumbo and loved whipping it out, especially when people asked about why the war was going on. No, really. Here are some anecdotes. quote:According to this review of A Mind of Its Own: A Cultural History of the Penis, “Lyndon B. Johnson once answered reporters badgering him about why the United States was in Vietnam with a simple, unmistakable off-the-record gesture: he unzipped, pulled out his penis and said, ‘This is why!’ ”
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Jul 6, 2018 04:10
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I mean, he wasn't wrong
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Jul 6, 2018 04:17
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The reason America didn't just nuke or march into North Vietnam etc was not that they were above killing civilians (we know they weren't given the absolutely ruthless bombing campaigns) or fear of retaliation by the USSR, but because they have no hard principles and fight for money streams. Not that principled stances are very common in general or last longer than specific leadership figures stay in power. Nuke or otherwise flatten a country to conquer it, you inherit a wasteland or at least reduce what you're going to get out of it. Conquer a country whose population hates you and does not fear you enough not to sabotage the puppet government you set up, same thing. Of course USSR and China mattered in the sense that they guaranteed the populations would never run out of weapons and ammo. Intensive warfare messes with budgets worse than long-term, low-intensity warfare even when it's cheaper in the long term, supporting non-self-sustaining puppet governments is expensive, and war has to pay for itself if not in money terms, at least in PR and global diplomatic power terms. And Vietnam, given its will to fight and unthreatening nature, wasn't worth much except to hardcore Domino Theory believers. There are actually no concerns with morality apart from what's required to look justified to the people who are both paying the whole thing and dying for it, and like someone your allies can keep supporting. Like yeah, their support is critical, but why actually put moral restrictions on yourself when you can be treated the same as if you did by directing an intensive propaganda campaign at local and international populations. You know, giving journalists guided tours, subtly threatening journalists who enter the country not through the guided tours, paying for airtime for pro-war advertisements and opinions, threatening to pull away ad money, exclusive interviews and positions at important events news stations if they air coverage that would sabotage your narrative, flooding the international community with doctored information so that they will treat that as their best source on the events and give an air of legitimacy to it...
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Jul 6, 2018 07:05
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Has anyone said the whole war could of been avoided? Because the whole war could of been avoided.
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Jul 6, 2018 07:19
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