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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Though it says at one point Obi Wan and Darth Vader started out as a single character? I haven't read the early drafts myself but I don't recall hearing about that one. Sort of - the way characters separate and merge across different drafts means that Vader, Obi-Wan, and even Luke all originated from the same character. In Lucas' first treatment, Luke Skywalker is an aged Jedi general who trains an unnamed group of teenage boys in guerrila warfare to rescue a princess from the Empire. In the rough draft of the screenplay, the aged Jedi is renamed Kane Starkiller and is the father of the protagonist, Annikin. He's also a heavily wounded cyborg, with only his head and right arm still remaining from his organic body. In this version of the script, Darth Vader is the name of an Imperial general. The role of Sith Knight is taken by a character named Espaa Valorum, who does a face turn near the end of the script to help Annikin rescue the Princess. In the second draft, Vader and Valorum have been combined into one character. Since this draft is what Ralph McQuarrie based his concept art on, it's also where Vader gets his suit (originally just a spacesuit that Vader wore when boarding the Rebel ship at the beginning of the film). The protagonist of this draft is named Luke Starkiller, and meets with his estranged father (only named as The Skywalker) when he joins up with the Rebels to attack the Death Star. The third draft dispenses with the father character altogether, making Luke an orphan and replacing him with Obi-Wan as the mentor figure. As with the earlier Kane Starkiller, Obi-Wan is a heavily wounded cyborg. Vader is still fully human in this draft, as it's mentioned he drinks from a flask during the Death Star meeting scene. By the fourth draft (which is essentially the shooting script), Obi-Wan is now fully human and Vader no longer drinks during the meeting, suggesting he's now intended to be in his suit all the time. When it came time to write the sequel, Lucas returned to the idea from the rough draft that the protagonist's father was a heavily wounded cyborg, and added that element to Vader.
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Jul 7, 2020 22:53
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Robot Style posted:Vader is still fully human in this draft, as it's mentioned he drinks from a flask during the Death Star meeting scene. Love it. Wino Vader babbling about an all-powerful force from within his whisky haze.
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Jul 7, 2020 23:13
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Jul 8, 2020 00:55
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So what is Lucas really good at besides merchandising? In an alternate universe where Lucas never made Star Wars what does his career look like?
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Jul 8, 2020 02:08
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One of the last chapters begins with Lucas attending his high school reunion in Modesto, CA, and is actually surprised how much he's treated like a superstar ('George Lucas' was a household name at that point of course, but being a behind-the-scenes guy it's not like he had crowds of fans chasing him 24/7 like Elvis). He finds it sad when old friends come up to him saying "I don't know if you'll remember me, but..." In a newspaper article about the event, an old classmate is quoted recalling Lucas as "the kind of wimp you used to slap around with a towel." >>> Lucas was quiet and small, but he insists he was no wimp. "I never got beaten up in school, that's for sure. I had my friends," Lucas says.
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Jul 8, 2020 05:06
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:So what is Lucas really good at besides merchandising? It's business. That anecdote about George Jr. using his allowance money to buy a new lawnmower so he doesn't have to spend as much time mowing lawns for allowance money kind of says it all. Although the last chapters have a 'You just won the Superbowl! What next?' 'I'm going to Disneyland!' vibe, the overall story of the book is a guy who angrily rejects becoming a cynical businessman like his father and by the end has gradually become a cynical businessman like his father. Lucas's dream of Skywalker Ranch (which still hadn't been built by then) strikes me as him trying to recreate his experience attending USC, where it sounds like he was happiest: a kind of perpetual film school where he spends his days tinkering with short movies and showing them to his film school buddies and joshing around with them (it's also where he met Marcia...).
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Jul 8, 2020 05:22
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To balance out the wave of cynicism of the last few, here's a nice quote from Lucas: >>> During a story conference on Jedi, Lucas told Kasdan, "The whole emotion I am trying to get at the end of this film is for you to be emotionally and spiritually uplifted and to feel absolutely good about life. That is the greatest thing that we could ever possibly do."
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Jul 8, 2020 07:14
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Robot Style posted:Sort of - the way characters separate and merge across different drafts means that Vader, Obi-Wan, and even Luke all originated from the same character. I appreciate the rundown! I've always been interested in those drafts but could never work up the initiative to read them, especially since I suspect they'll all blur together in my memory anyway.
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Jul 8, 2020 07:17
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This edition of the book has a new chapter added during the run up to Episode I's release. It's very conspicuous that Pollock no longer has access to Lucas, all his quotes being contributed to other articles and the official Star Wars website. Though it doesn't refute any of Lucas's stated reasons for revisiting the series, it does note dryly that by the mid-90s Lucasfilm was starting to feel the diminishing returns from its income sources. It also contains a section that quotes Scorsese and John Milius, Friedkin, and even Marcia Lucas about how Star Wars has ruined the movie industry (it's a bit rich coming from Milius knowing he got a profit from it for absolutely free). >>> ...Marcia Lucas, sadly concluded in 1998, "Right now I'm just disgusted by the American film industry. There are so few good films, and part of me thinks Star Wars is partly responsible for the direction the industry has gone in, and I feel badly about that." Lucas defends himself, saying his and Spielberg's success had actually saved a dying film industry. SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Jul 8, 2020 |
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Jul 8, 2020 07:58
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Speaking of Marcia, the book follows up with what happened since the original publication: >>> In 1983 [George Lucas] suffered a devastating blow when Marcia Lucas left him for Tom Rodriguez, a stained-glass artist who was working on the main Skywalker Ranch building. Lucas: "Sancho!!!"  >>> "In his mind, I always stayed the stupid Valley girl," she told Biskind. "He never felt I was very smart, he never gave me much credit. When we were finishing Jedi, George told me he thought I was a pretty good editor. In the sixteen years of our being together, I think that was the only time he ever complimented me." >>> Lucas was devastated when Marcia departed. He retreated even further into himself, although he did have a brief, well-publicized relationship with singer Linda Rondstadt.
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Jul 8, 2020 08:23
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Torquemada posted:Easy Riders, Raging Bulls paints George as a guy who basically hosed around on Coppola’s dime for quite a while, so I’m guessing there’s some ‘he said she said’ in their relationship. Haha that book gets cited quite a bit in the added epilogue, including the one moment where the book kind of breaks the fourth wall and talks about itself: >>> And for all the criticisms from both Lucas and Coppola that this biography overemphasized their differences, they spend the entire text of Peter Biskind's '70s retrospective sniping at each other - over money, over credit, over who was the better friend. Some dynamics are difficult to change.
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Jul 8, 2020 08:30
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The new chapter also features an amazing collection of prequel rumors that was the most unexpected blast of 1999 nostalgia ever: remember "Rise of the Empire" and "Fall of the Jedi?" That Mark Hamill was going to cameo in Episode III and that Carrie Fisher would help with the dialogue (I wish)? Good times, good times.
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Jul 8, 2020 08:37
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:So it starts off with Lucas as a teen getting into a serious car wreck that hospitalizes him for days and "crushes" his lungs.  SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Young George was a real gearhead and cars were his first passion. He hangs out with the local streetracing scene up until he has his big accident (the book kind of jumps around a bit in the timeline). If he was born like 30 years later he'd probably be a 'Fast and the Furious' diehard.  SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Upon graduating high school George Sr. insists Jr. help run the family business. The younger Lucas angrily declares he will never join his father and what's more, he will become a millionaire by the time he turns 30. This starts a years-long rift between them.   Mooey Cow posted:After it was published, Lucas' friends told Pollock that Lucas only signed the deal because he hoped the retelling of their first meeting would give his wife, Marcia, incentive to not go through with their impending divorce. It was unsuccessful.  SidneyIsTheKiller posted:the overall story of the book is a guy who angrily rejects becoming a cynical businessman like his father and by the end has gradually become a cynical businessman like his father.  SidneyIsTheKiller posted:>>> And for all the criticisms from both Lucas and Coppola that this biography overemphasized their differences, they spend the entire text of Peter Biskind's '70s retrospective sniping at each other - over money, over credit, over who was the better friend. Some dynamics are difficult to change. 
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Jul 8, 2020 16:10
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:The new chapter also features an amazing collection of prequel rumors that was the most unexpected blast of 1999 nostalgia ever: remember "Rise of the Empire" and "Fall of the Jedi?" That Mark Hamill was going to cameo in Episode III and that Carrie Fisher would help with the dialogue (I wish)? Good times, good times. She very well may have, she was a pretty big script doctor.
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Jul 8, 2020 17:09
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josh04 posted:Love it. Wino Vader babbling about an all-powerful force from within his whisky haze. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0rwG39Jzk
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Jul 8, 2020 18:51
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"Lord Vader!" "Huh?" "The Battle Station plans are not aboard this ship." "And?" (Edit: Oh poo poo there's a part 2! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcLX-9jdEAI) Ran across some old interviews Dale Pollock did during the release for this book and thought I'd share w/ you all. (His voice and way of speaking sound extremely familiar, but can't figure out who he's reminding me of). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gwGmYDsrQc This one gets interesting because the host brings up the then-pending and recently-announced divorce (about 11:30 in) which the book couldn't cover. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X02o7fjdXyQ This one's shorter but a bit deeper. "He is not what you call a charismatic personality." (Thanks to https://www.fanthatracks.com/interviews/dale-pollock-interviews-from-the-80s/) SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jul 19, 2020 05:42
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Lucas makes a documentary about the making of Coppola's film Rain People that for decades was (maybe still is?) assigned watching in film schools. Well, hey! It's up on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvoFroVEQk0
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Jul 19, 2020 06:36
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This was an excellent thread, forums poster SidneyIsTheKiller. I'mma resurrect it to point out thatSidneyIsTheKiller posted:At this point his company is already developing a digital film editing system and he's giddy about it ("a director will be able to take his movie home with him in a briefcase."). And he wistfully looks forward to the day "movies will be beamed to theaters (and home TV sets) by satellites, eliminating the studios' cumbersome distribution system." Lucas pretty much made those things happen. In some documentary about Episode 2 he basically says that as far as he's concerned "everyone should have been shooting digital 20 years ago". He wanted to shoot Episode 1 on digital too but Sony couldn't get the cameras ready in time, it is said, and even on Episode 2 the cameras weren't all that good. And yet as early as '93 someone managed to record this HD footage of New York, which is really cool to me (although it's unclear when exactly they put it on digital tapes). That sharp 60p video feels like looking into a time machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT4lDU-QLUY
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Aug 12, 2020 23:25
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Mooey Cow posted:This was an excellent thread, forums poster SidneyIsTheKiller. I'mma resurrect it to point out that I appreciate it, forums poster Mooey Cow! I recall Ebert went and gave Episode II thumbs down based entirely on how lovely he thought the digital footage looked. Your link reminds me of something I've been thinking about for a while now, which is how having hi def footage available of the past might change the way we look at history.
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Aug 17, 2020 01:36
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:having hi def footage available of the past might change the way we look at history. It might be outside the scope of this thread, but this might be an interesting thread on its own.
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Aug 17, 2020 03:47
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:I appreciate it, forums poster Mooey Cow! I recall Ebert went and gave Episode II thumbs down based entirely on how lovely he thought the digital footage looked. That was during the ebert and roper era I remember. Their review of episode 2 is hilarious because it gets totally derailed with those two arguing about force powers
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Aug 18, 2020 17:00
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this thread rules and kicked up my respect for ol Georgie a few notches.
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Aug 20, 2020 09:22
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Bumping this thread because I can't really think of a better one: one of the original reasons I started reading this book was because I was hoping for some insight or anecdote about the inspiration behind making Darth Vader the father of Luke Skywalker. There wasn't anything about that but no matter, it had plenty of juicy details of its own and surely some other source covers it, right? I next went through all 300+ pages of tiny print in the hardcover The Making of The Empire Strikes Back by JW Rinzler hoping to get some info there, but while it does mention the first story outlines of Lucas's in which the twist first appears, there's absolutely zero commentary from Lucas or anyone about how that development came to be. (Though there is an amazing transcript of a story conference between he and Leigh Brackett in which Lucas sounds for all the world like he can barely contain himself while beating around the bush who Darth Vader really is). I then consulted The Secret History of Star Wars which is an admittedly very well-sourced 500 page fan rant about how George Lucas is a LYING BASTARD that's kind of insufferable so I only read the relevant chapters, and it can only give its own theory that Lucas came up with the twist while struggling to consolidate the characters in the backstory in the second draft of Empire (this would appear to have been contradicted by the Rinzler book which came out later). After that I did some more googling and can't find anything definitive on this topic. Has seriously nobody interviewing Lucas ever bothered to ask him "so how did the whole Darth Vader being Luke's father thing come about?" Or am I just really bad at finding this stuff? Like I don't even care at this point if the story he gives is all a big lie, I just want to hear what he has to say about it! SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 13:34
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Bumping this thread because I can't really think of a better one: one of the original reasons I started reading this book was because I was hoping for some insight or anecdote about the inspiration behind making Darth Vader the father of Luke Skywalker. There wasn't anything about that but no matter, it had plenty of juicy details of its own and surely some other source covers it, right? I'm pretty sure Lucas sticks with the probably-lie that Vader being Luke's father was planned from the start, pointing out that Vader is German for father. It's more likely that Lucas originally got the name Vader from "invader," and the "from a certain point of view" thing is such an obvious retcon that Lucas must have changed his idea (plus Vader probably originally wasn't even meant to be that important a character - his role in the original movie expanded as the filmmakers realized how cool his armor looked). Having said that, it's possible that Lucas realizing that Vader is German for father is what gave him the idea for the twist. I believe there are also characters in various early Star Wars drafts who combined various aspects of what would eventually become Luke, Anakin/Vader, and Obi-Wan (e.g., there was one version where the mentor character was a cyborg), so it's possible that the decision to make Vader Luke's father drew on those in a way that allowed Lucas to feel that, "from a certain point of view," he had planned it all along. Edit: You may also be interested in the discussion of how the setting and backstory of Star Wars ended up being very different from what one might extrapolate from the original movie in this essay, which I previously linked in this thread. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 19:53
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Silver2195 posted:I'm pretty sure Lucas sticks with the probably-lie that Vader being Luke's father was planned from the start, pointing out that Vader is German for father. It's more likely that Lucas originally got the name Vader from "invader," and the "from a certain point of view" thing is such an obvious retcon that Lucas must have changed his idea (plus Vader probably originally wasn't even meant to be that important a character - his role in the original movie expanded as the filmmakers realized how cool his armor looked). There's some handwritten notes from Lucas that show that Vader's name actually came from him playing around with evil sounding words like "Dark Invader" and "Death Water", and indeed he started out as just a random Imperial general (though a Sith Knight with a different name did feature heavily from the start). Vader did become the main villain in the second draft, which is what McQuarrie based his concept art on including the iconic image of Vader fighting Deak Starkiller. Silver2195 posted:I believe there are also characters in various early Star Wars drafts who combined various aspects of what would eventually become Luke, Anakin/Vader, and Obi-Wan (e.g., there was one version where the mentor character was a cyborg), so it possible the decision to make Vader Luke's father drew on those in a way that allowed Lucas to feel that, "from a certain point of view," he had planned it all along. Yeah, this is might be the case. Annikin Starkiller's father in the rough draft was a Jedi cyborg, and that version of the script also ended with the Sith Knight character joining the heroes after realizing the Empire wasn't honorable. The early story conference for Empire does seem like Lucas wants to maintain that: George Lucas posted:Vader is completely consumed by the evil side of the Force. He is an instrument of the Force rather than having his own free will in terms of what he does. He really is driven by the Force. When we kill him off in the next one, we’ll reveal what he really is. He wants to be human—he’s still fighting in his own way the dark side of the Force. He doesn’t want to be a bad man, but he is. He can’t resist it. He’s struggling somehow to get out of what he is, struggling with his humanity. Whether or not he thought that a familial relationship to Luke was the key to Vader's inner conflict isn't clear, as he says that Vader and Luke's confrontation in Empire should be based on "Vader using a moral law that we learned earlier, but Vader turns it around. It has to be a mystical thing. Something you can look at from two sides." which kind of makes it seem like Vader's trying to turn Luke to the dark side on a technicality. Leigh Brackett's screenplay certainly has Vader and Luke's father as separate characters, so either she wasn't privy to it or the decision to make them the same person came about afterwards. Maybe Lucas was feeling something was missing from the story, or the idea came from discussions with Lawrence Kasdan after he joined the project.
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Oct 1, 2020 20:47
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Silver2195 posted:Having said that, it's possible that Lucas realizing that Vader is German for father is what gave him the idea for the twist. Oh yeah, 'Robot Style' did a pretty good breakdown of the evolving mentor/ cyborg/ black knight characters (at the top of this page in fact, haha), (edit: well poo poo, speak of the devil!) and there does indeed appear to be juuust enough cover there for Lucas to claim Darth was always the father  from a certain point of view Though I do remember one of these books quoting Lucas that the name "Vader" had evolved from "Water", which was just one of the random words he'd jot down for use in possible names. I think the "Vader is German" was probably always a fan theory/myth. At this point I don't even really care when he came up with it (I think the Rinzler book makes it pretty clear it was just after Star Wars hit it big and Lucas thought "whoa you mean I can actually make a whole bunch more of these?" and got to work planning Empire and start thinking more seriously about how the whole saga would go). Now I'm more interested in the how and why. Lucas has talked about how the Star Wars that was eventually released actually condensed the whole trilogy into one movie because he figured he realistically had only one shot at it (and it does appear that way: first act with a queen or princess on the run aided by two protagonists that find the eventual hero on a desert planet; second act with the hero getting trained and the whole group escaping capture by the empire while someone loses a lightsaber duel with Vader; third act with a final battle with the death star above a forest moon). I have a hunch that "the revelation" about Vader in this pre-release conception of the OT was that Vader had once known and eventually betrayed Luke's father, (this would make the "Revenge of the Jedi" title make a lot more sense) and when Lucas got to make the rest of the trilogy after all he was forced to come up with a different revelation and a modified catharsis to go along with it. But drat, would be nice to know for sure. I hope Lucas doesn't take this to the grave. SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 21:03
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Silver2195 posted:Edit: You may also be interested in the discussion of how the setting and backstory of Star Wars ended up being very different from what one might extrapolate from the original movie in this essay, which I previously linked in this thread. Haha I've read that before, highly amusing and a lot of it rings true. Though the bitterness that a lot of fans seem to have about this kind of escapes me. Lucas (to be charitable) mythologizes and it's annoying and weirdly shameless, but the whole "it was all a SHAM" attitude is a bit much. Most series are made up as they go along, go off in different directions than they initially seem to, and don't have plot threads that line up perfectly, and trying to reconcile it all is part of the fun. I don't know why a lot of folks can't just do the same with Star Wars. Maybe I'm overreacting myself, but man, read too much of "The Secret History of Star Wars" in one sitting and it'll get to you. Funny enough, that book actually shared my idea about the saga's original major revelation being Vader's betrayal and murder of Anakin, which is weird because that presupposes that Lucas did in fact have quite a bit of the whole saga in mind already before the movie was made (there's a point where the drafts go from vaguely resembling Episode I, if anything, to suddenly cramming the whole "renegade royalty on the run" plot into the first act, which suggests Lucas is being truthful about the whole-trilogy-in-one-movie thing and it wasn't something he made up after the fact), and that book's entire thesis is that Lucas has been lying from the very beginning.
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Oct 1, 2020 21:48
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Lucas's insistence that he had everything planned, and the special editions are his true vision, are kinda annoying as they don't hold up to much scrutiny, but to write an essay about Star Wars is mind boggling.
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Oct 1, 2020 21:57
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Robot Style posted:Whether or not he thought that a familial relationship to Luke was the key to Vader's inner conflict isn't clear, as he says that Vader and Luke's confrontation in Empire should be based on "Vader using a moral law that we learned earlier, but Vader turns it around. It has to be a mystical thing. Something you can look at from two sides." which kind of makes it seem like Vader's trying to turn Luke to the dark side on a technicality. The Rinzler Making of book (is this what you're quoting or is there another source for the Leigh Brackett story conference?) finds the the idea in Lucas's early handwritten notes, which the book notes are undated but are almost certainly from before they started any drafts, and perhaps even earlier:  On the same page: >>> One Chapter II note may actually have been written for the first film, as it mentions the Kiber Crystal, an idea abandoned before shooting in 1976, but it contains the first reference to what would become a new character: "Luke unconscious--awakes to find Bunden Debannen (Buffy). Buffy very old--three or four thousand years. Kiber Crystal in sword? Buffy shows Luke?..." "Future" magazine in 1978 reported that Lucas was developing both a storyline in which Vader is Luke's father and one in which he is not and was trying to decide between the two:  (this scan isn't mine) The Secret History... figures that the magazine must have somehow gotten their hands on both the first and second drafts, but I don't believe so. The mag never mentions Brackett's death (immediately after finishing her draft) suggesting they hadn't gotten to the second draft yet. And what's more, the plot twist only appeared in Lucas's handwritten form of the draft - the official typed-up script that he submitted to 20th Century Fox execs had it omitted. It really would have been extraordinary if the handwritten version had been leaked. I think it's more likely that, just as the magazine says, Lucas was in the midst of considering the alternate storylines, perhaps discussed it with a few people and word got out. It does seem like the twist was on the table from at least the beginning of Empire 's development. SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Oct 2, 2020 |
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Oct 2, 2020 00:19
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The Rinzler book has some nifty scans of Lucas's legal pad notes:   
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Oct 2, 2020 00:31
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:The Rinzler Making of book (is this what you're quoting or is there another source for the Leigh Brackett story conference?) finds the the idea in Lucas's early handwritten notes, which the book notes are undated but are almost certainly from before they started any drafts, and perhaps even earlier: The Kiber Crystal thing might be a reference to Splinter of the Mind's Eye, which was developed as a potential low-budget sequel in case the first movie didn't do well. Brackett's script did incorporate a crystal in Luke's sword though, which he used to guide him to Dagobah.
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Oct 2, 2020 01:31
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Sidney I just wanted to say this is a really cool thread thanks for doing all of this research/posting!
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Oct 2, 2020 01:52
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My pleasure, reignofevil. None of my friends are quite this geeky so without y'all I'd just be soaking up all this useless info by my lonesome. Also thanks to everyone commenting and sharing insight! While I'm sharing rare Lucas documents might as well post the 2nd draft secret pages he didn't share with the Fox execs:  
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Oct 2, 2020 04:34
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http://outlawvern.com/2016/02/19/lucas-minus-star-wars-what-have-we-learned/ Some random blog did a interesting analysis of Lucas career through his non-Star Wars work. Also, this amazing piece of work. https://www.tested.com/art/movies/457346-george-lucas-super-live-adventure/
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Oct 2, 2020 14:14
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I've never seen Red Tails but if it's any good I bet it would've made like $300 million if it had come out in, say, 2019 Edit: Nckdictator posted:Also, this amazing piece of work. Oh my god this is indeed wonderful   >>> Deans remembers the tiger being freaked out by a shiny gold prop for the Indiana Jones segment, attacking it, and running loose. The tiger, he says, was "really loving pissed." Scott Faris elaborates: "We hear, suddenly, over the [loudspeaker]: 'Please close the doors. The tiger is loose.' And you just see people running and slamming doors. I remember one person in the office, this would be in the interior of the arena where all the dressing rooms are...this one office person calling us on the phone saying 'Um, the tiger just walked by me in the passageway...' Nobody got eaten, but that was a huge bit of excitement there in the early days." SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Oct 3, 2020 |
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Oct 3, 2020 00:53
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Perhaps not coincidentally, Billy Dee Williams is quoted as not wanting to play a 'token black' role and accepted the part of Lando because of his "universal, international quality." It's possible they made Cloud City more cosmopolitan to reflect this as well. Or maybe that's just who they could get as extras while shooting in England at the time (I'm admittedly ignorant to how diverse 1980 UK was).[/list] There have been a bunch of black people in the UK since the Empire Windrush generation in the 50s, and also a bunch of people of Indian descent.
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Oct 3, 2020 12:06
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feedmegin posted:There have been a bunch of black people in the UK since the Empire Windrush generation in the 50s, and also a bunch of people of Indian descent. I appreciate the info. It does seem likely they rolled back their initial plans so Lando would come off less like "the black guy from the planet of black people, did we mention he's black, there's totally a black guy in Star Wars now" which Billy Dee Williams specifically wanted to avoid. Robot Style posted:Yeah, I'm using the Rinzler book as well. The mention of Vader being a passing manifestation is interesting - it lines up with Lucas' other statements in the story conference about Vader being a victim of the Force's will, and even his resignation to his own fate in Return of the Jedi. I wonder if, even post-OT, Lucas' ideas for the prequels had Vader being trapped by the Dark Side by some external force rather than it being an entirely personal choice. Cool, we're tag teaming this.  Hope I didn't come off like I was trying to educate you on things you already knew!Yeah, the initial idea of Vader being under a spell of sorts does seem to still be more subtly implemented in the finished films. The dark side seems to have a kind of hold or intoxicating effect (and would help explain how seemingly quickly and completely Anakin goes through his turn in Ep III). I've mentioned elsewhere how it's easy to read the dark side as a vice like drugs/ sex/ gambling etc. Robot Style posted:The Kiber Crystal thing might be a reference to Splinter of the Mind's Eye, which was developed as a potential low-budget sequel in case the first movie didn't do well. Brackett's script did incorporate a crystal in Luke's sword though, which he used to guide him to Dagobah. For anyone interested, 'Splinter of the Mind's Eye' is available digitally and it is quite the "what might have been" curiosity. 
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Oct 4, 2020 07:53
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Robot Style posted:Yeah, this is might be the case. Annikin Starkiller's father in the rough draft was a Jedi cyborg, and that version of the script also ended with the Sith Knight character joining the heroes after realizing the Empire wasn't honorable. The early story conference for Empire does seem like Lucas wants to maintain that: Coming back to this for a moment, the Lucas quote in the above post is already interesting (for me especially the "[in the next one] we'll reveal what he really is"), and going back to find the part that really rose my eyebrows, it turns out to be the very next paragraph:  I'd die to know what Lucas would have said if right then Brackett had asked why this was so personal for Vader - simply Luke being the son of his old frenemy? Setting up the parentage reveal for the third one? Robot Style posted:Leigh Brackett's screenplay certainly has Vader and Luke's father as separate characters, so either she wasn't privy to it or the decision to make them the same person came about afterwards. Maybe Lucas was feeling something was missing from the story, or the idea came from discussions with Lawrence Kasdan after he joined the project. I've read the Brackett draft a couple years ago and while surprisingly still recognizable as Empire, it does feel very empty without the twist, and it's much more difficult to understand Vader's obsession with turning Luke to the dark side. (Sidenote: one of the things I thought while reading it was "I imagine this movie looking like Krull", which is a sentiment I've also heard multiple times from others completely unprompted)  More fun from the legal pads: the *Secret Revised Pages!!* of dialogue they would have given James Earl Jones for ADR:  
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Oct 4, 2020 09:04
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:I've read the Brackett draft a couple years ago and while surprisingly still recognizable as Empire, it does feel very empty without the twist, and it's much more difficult to understand Vader's obsession with turning Luke to the dark side. Also, if Anakin is just another ghost...so what? What does that character bring to the story? It also opens a can of worms. If Obi Wan can communicate anywhere, why didn't Anakin talk to Luke earlier in his life (insert Force reasons here)? And Luke (and audience) would be distracted from his training and the Yoda character. I also wonder if Lucas was concerned about potential legal ramifications by not insisting Vader=Lukes father all along. Sequel to the biggest movie in years and people coming out of the woodwork claiming Lucas "stole" their idea. In his position I'm not sure I would trust the court system siding with "we changed it after the first draft because it made a better story" over Joe Shitbag claiming it was his idea as "proven" by a letter in Starlog magazine.
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Oct 4, 2020 14:01
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So there's this joke I've heard, mostly in nerd circles, that the only thing that Lucas says to his actors was "Faster!" and right now I'm wondering where the heck this came from. Every picture I've seen of Lucas on set is him out of his chair in a close, seemingly pretty easy conversation, and maybe it's just because I grew up in our Joss Whedon world or I live on the east coast but Star Wars isn't that fast, particularly in line reads. Han's the resident City Slicker Rogue, and his dialogue is certainly snappier than the other characters, but even then I'd describe him as relaxed, not frantic. Vader and Obi-Wan are outright glacial. So what's the deal with this joke?
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Oct 4, 2020 15:55
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