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Who What Now posted:I had no idea phrenology was making such a comeback. No, that's the bunk pseudoscience that tried to associate parts of the skull with personality traits and intelligence (and happened to support the idea that women r dum bcuz small braenz so it got to stick around for a while). Real live anthropologists and biologists can tell ancient female skeletons and male skeletons apart, and more generally so can most laypeople when those skeletons are surrounded by flesh. It's not one-to-one and some trans women do pass but we're talking about the ones who don't pass. But even for those who mostly pass, it's really lovely if they have to worry that someone might notice, be against it, and have her arrested, which is in the law in some states. Stinky_Pete fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 20:55
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Stinky_Pete posted:I don't think it's appropriate to cast social justice ideology as a monolith in this way. Let's remember that, at its core, social justice is about righting the wrongs of history, colonialism, etc, which were primarily executed by the Western European peoples with all their guns, germs, and steel (how titular). I hope that all of us support that aim, and that what we're arguing about is whether any given problem or perceived problem is part of that aim, and whether the powers that be are addressing it sanely and correctly. Like W, they often present a "you're either with us or against us" dichotomy for the situation. One only need to read the inflammatory posts in this thread to convince oneself of this. You can support the cause without buying into the weird aspects of the social justice belief system.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:59
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silence_kit posted:Like W, they often present a "you're either with us or against us" dichotomy for the situation. One only need to read the inflammatory posts in this thread to convince oneself of this. You can support the cause without buying into the weird aspects of the social justice belief system. Those "weird aspects" only exist in your mind. 
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Dec 24, 2015 21:04
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silence_kit posted:Like W, they often present a "you're either with us or against us" dichotomy for the situation. One only need to read the inflammatory posts in this thread to convince oneself of this. You can support the cause without buying into the social justice belief system. I've noticed that too, but I think it's best to refer to that dogma in a way that keeps it separate from social justice, because the message can become easily confused, especially to someone who's used to, and expecting, diametric opposition.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:07
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silence_kit posted:Like W, they often present a "you're either with us or against us" dichotomy for the situation. One only need to read the inflammatory posts in this thread to convince oneself of this. You can support the cause without buying into the weird aspects of the social justice belief system. Your argument is weird. You fo know that there are several different movements that fall under social justice, right? I think people are getting upset because they have seen it before. Huge derails that come from straw men, death by a thousand hypotheticals and questions, etc. But I do notice a trend. Goons have a hard time being deferential. I've noticed it with the argument about the food. I've noticed it with their opinions on racial matters. They have a hard time accepting that their opinions on racial matters aren't as important that they think they are.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:14
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Stinky_Pete posted:No, that's the bunk pseudoscience that tried to associate parts of the skull with personality traits and intelligence (and happened to support the idea that women r dum bcuz small braenz so it got to stick around for a while). Real live anthropologists and biologists can tell ancient female skeletons and male skeletons apart, and more generally so can most laypeople when those skeletons are surrounded by flesh. It's not one-to-one and some trans women do pass but we're talking about the ones who don't pass. But even for those who mostly pass, it's really lovely if they have to worry that someone might notice, be against it, and have her arrested, which is in the law in some states. So do you propose we set up xray-scanners near the toilets? If a woman is called 'sir', is she not allowed to go to the bathroom until she's been called 'madam' three times in a row? What are the criteria for 'passing'? Is it hand size or length or a beauty contest? I really wonder how you think we should realise your ideas.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:17
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Ddraig posted:No, see that's where you're wrong: "Social justice" ideology does not maintain hierarchies of power where the least oppressed get oppressed by the most oppressed, that's loving retarded. The end goal is to destroy those hierarchies. Oh, I missed this post. While no doubt I am sure that there are social justice proponents who get a thrill out of being oppressed, that's not what I meant there. When I said maintain a hierarchy for the purposes of determining preferential treatment, I mean that they have a complicated taxonomy/ranking of oppressed groups in their mind and that it heavily informs them when making moral decisions. For example, a small school in Ohio should overnight ship in fresh fish and pay to fly in a professional Japanese sushi chef to appease a Japanese college student who believes that bad sushi is racist. However, if an Italian student complains about Chef Boyardee, we aren't obligated to do anything because Italians are not really oppressed because they pass as white.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:08
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silence_kit posted:Oh, I missed this post. While no doubt I am sure that there are social justice proponents who get a thrill out of being oppressed, that's not what I meant there. Right, the Japanese college student who can pay $50,000/year for tuition plus room and board to study abroad in the States is oppressed by inadequacy of the sushi in small-town Ohio. This is why it's unreasonable and probably racist to expect Chicago-style pizza in Madrid. Never mind that Japan, Spain, and the US are all wealthy countries. This poo poo is utterly incoherent. I'm going to get all appropriative and have some pho, and I'm going to savor the oppression.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:15
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Maybe if you can find some pho prepared by a corporation and not by a Vietnamese family your statement would be meaningful.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:18
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silence_kit posted:Oh, I missed this post. While no doubt I am sure that there are social justice proponents who get a thrill out of being oppressed, that's not what I meant there. If you have to make up examples that never actually happened then your point is probably really lovely, HTH
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Dec 24, 2015 22:20
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SedanChair posted:Maybe if you can find some pho prepared by a corporation and not by a Vietnamese family your statement would be meaningful. It would blow your mind to know that many Vietnamese families have corporations, wouldn't it? Being Vietnamese isn't a racial handicap to incorporating for a small business.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:23
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TheImmigrant posted:It would blow your mind to know that many Vietnamese families have corporations, wouldn't it? Being Vietnamese isn't a racial handicap to incorporating for a small business. Sure, that's obviously what I was talking about.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:25
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GrimSqueaker posted:So do you propose we set up xray-scanners near the toilets? If a woman is called 'sir', is she not allowed to go to the bathroom until she's been called 'madam' three times in a row? What are the criteria for 'passing'? Is it hand size or length or a beauty contest? I really wonder how you think we should realise your ideas. I don't think passing should be required for a woman to enter the women's restroom. Also, did you miss the part where I said people can often tell a skeleton's sex when flesh is over the skeletons? The women are performing the gender they identify as, but there are some who dispute male-born (or in some cases, intersex-born) women's identity as such, can tell they are male-born, and don't want them in the women's restroom, and I think that's wrong. e: Also a lot of people use the word corporation as shorthand for large multinational business that probably does pollution, and while it seems irresponsible, it's so common now that fighting it would be like getting people to use the original definition of "proactive" Get that corporate pho out of my face, man. I ain't no corporate pho-face. Stinky_Pete fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 22:51
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This rhetoric doesn't work to destroy those hierarchies in any meaningfully way, it merely expects people to compensate for it within activist circles. That's what the conversation about privilege is, and it's why, in those circles, people try and declare their (lack of) privileges and use that as a tool to gain respect/validation. silence_kit is basically correct here, you may not like it expressed in the terms he did, but he's right. You're of noble intentions, but you're still being race/sex conscious. You're not developing standards for society and the people in it from first principles, merely pointing to the current society and saying "well don't do that". Okay, but why is society the way it is, and can you honestly change it merely by expecting people to change it, by asking/demanding them? And supposing anyone actually listens, when you ask wider society to change their ways (assuming simply asking them would ever do anything [it won't]), they will look to you, to see how you act. Do you believe you are setting a good example for what a desirable society will actually look like? rudatron fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Dec 25, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 22:55
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rudatron posted:This rhetoric doesn't work to destroy those hierarchies in any meaningfully way, it merely expects people to compensate for it within activist circles. That's what the conversation about privilege is, and it's why, in those circles, people try and declare their (lack of) privileges and use that as a tool to gain respect/validation. silence_kit is basically correct here, you may not like it expressed in the terms he did, but he's right. You're of noble intentions, but you're still being race/sex conscious. You not yourself developing a standard for how society and the people in it should act from first principles, merely pointing to the current society and saying "well don't do that". Okay, but why is society the way it is, and can you honestly change it merely by expecting people to change it, by asking/demanding them? If you actually listened to what these "activists" are saying you would realize that these are topics of discussion. Actual, sincere discussion in good faith.
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Dec 24, 2015 23:10
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Effectronica posted:I strongly suspect that this analogy was not properly workshopped before VitalSigns wrote it. We should spend a good three days or so working it out. Ddraig posted:Mutual agreement doesn't mean "meet in the middle"
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Dec 24, 2015 23:49
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rudatron posted:This rhetoric doesn't work to destroy those hierarchies in any meaningfully way, it merely expects people to compensate for it within activist circles. That's what the conversation about privilege is, and it's why, in those circles, people try and declare their (lack of) privileges and use that as a tool to gain respect/validation. silence_kit is basically correct here, you may not like it expressed in the terms he did, but he's right. You're of noble intentions, but you're still being race/sex conscious. You're developing a standard for how society and the people in it should act from first principles, merely pointing to the current society and saying "well don't do that". Okay, but why is society the way it is, and can you honestly change it merely by expecting people to change it, by asking/demanding them? Do you have anything to back up these assertions of how the many, many different movements that fall under the social justice label really are beyond "silence_kit says so and he's totally right you guys"?
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Dec 25, 2015 00:05
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silence_kit posted:Because it is built in to the social justice ideology. Groups of people who rank higher on the cosmic scale of oppression are to be accommodated by groups who are less oppressed. Oh God, this dumb meme from the crazy forwards thread has come to life and is authoring even dumber posts of its own
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Dec 25, 2015 00:27
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TheImmigrant posted:Fresh fish for 'authentic' sushi in landlocked small-town Ohio seems to me less reasonable than a Chicago-style pizza in Madrid. You can get good sushi in the midwest, my friend is a sushi chef in Tulsa Oklahoma and his restaurant serves great sushi. It's perfectly reasonable to say that if the school he's paying tens of thousands a year to attend is serving sushi it should at least be of tolerable quality. He didn't say they have to serve it for him, only that what they are serving is crap and they shouldn't serve crap. But again you're just another angry dude making up stuff to accuse the students of saying so you can write them off as too uppity, and even though the actual management of the cafeteria met with them cordially and came to mutual agreement for some reason you're mad that someone took an asian seriously.
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Dec 25, 2015 01:19
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VitalSigns posted:Oh God, this dumb meme from the crazy forwards thread has come to life and is authoring even dumber posts of its own I like how they cannot grasp that there are answers to their cute questions.
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Dec 25, 2015 01:51
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SedanChair posted:I like how they cannot grasp that there are answers to their cute questions. They think they'll get us in a "checkmate" if we admit we'll support one minority over another for any reason.
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Dec 25, 2015 02:02
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I think the Gay and Muslim bakers would get offered jobs writing for Breitbart tbh.
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Dec 25, 2015 02:05
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Who What Now posted:They think they'll get us in a "checkmate" if we admit we'll support one minority over another for any reason. I love to do exactly that, but quickly clarify that I only mean in this particular situation, with this power dynamic. But when I say the second part I give off a kind of carefree vibe about it. It's straight out of Rush's playbook and it's hilarious to use.
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Dec 25, 2015 02:14
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Stinky_Pete posted:No, that's the bunk pseudoscience that tried to associate parts of the skull with personality traits and intelligence (and happened to support the idea that women r dum bcuz small braenz so it got to stick around for a while). Real live anthropologists and biologists can tell ancient female skeletons and male skeletons apart, and more generally so can most laypeople when those skeletons are surrounded by flesh. It's not one-to-one and some trans women do pass but we're talking about the ones who don't pass. But even for those who mostly pass, it's really lovely if they have to worry that someone might notice, be against it, and have her arrested, which is in the law in some states. Actually, biological sex is a social construct because of intersex conditions so anthropology is basically pseudoscience* *a thing someone has said
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Dec 25, 2015 03:48
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blackguy32 posted:I'm not even following you anymore. You are jumping to some big conclusions and then using that to paint every single social justice movement ever as bad. It's a common enough refrain, "These people I don't agree with are all lying. I don't understand the things they talk about so they're making it up. I don't care about the things they care about so they don't really either."
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Dec 25, 2015 04:30
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VitalSigns posted:Oh God, this dumb meme from the crazy forwards thread has come to life and is authoring even dumber posts of its own It's not a meme. If you were to read the old feminist threads on this site, you'd find the posters in them often arguing about that kind of stuff. The posters had no mechanism for resolving these kinds of disputes. What would happen in those threads when such a topic came up was posters on both sides would implode and probations had to be handed out because many of the posters got really nasty when their oppression-hierarchies were challenged.
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Dec 25, 2015 06:43
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silence_kit posted:It's not a meme. If you were to read the old feminist threads on this site, you'd find the posters in them often arguing about that kind of stuff. The posters had no mechanism for resolving these kinds of disputes. What would happen in those threads when such a topic came up was posters on both sides would implode and probations had to be handed out because many of the posters got really nasty when their oppression-hierarchies were challenged. Your worldview is an interesting one, much like that of a Flat-Earther, and that's not the only resemblance.
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Dec 25, 2015 06:47
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It's really off topic, but the whole controversy over transgender people using women's bathroms generally involves pre-op, pre-drug ones that are dressed like men insisting that they should be able to use women's restrooms and locker rooms. This is obviously troublesome because there is no way to tell them apart from a creeper.
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Dec 25, 2015 07:03
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silence_kit posted:It's not a meme. If you were to read the old feminist threads on this site, you'd find the posters in them often arguing about that kind of stuff. The posters had no mechanism for resolving these kinds of disputes. What would happen in those threads when such a topic came up was posters on both sides would implode and probations had to be handed out because many of the posters got really nasty when their oppression-hierarchies were challenged. Feminism has a long history of white feminists ignoring the needs of women of color. Welcome to feminism and history 101. But this kind of thing isn't limited to social justice movements.
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Dec 25, 2015 08:01
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-Troika- posted:It's really off topic, but the whole controversy over transgender people using women's bathroms generally involves pre-op, pre-drug ones that are dressed like men insisting that they should be able to use women's restrooms and locker rooms. This is obviously troublesome because there is no way to tell them apart from a creeper. FWIW it's the only time I've ever encountered this is, as you've said, creepers or people trying to make a stupid political point. Most actual trans people are more acutely aware of gender issues than most people, and there are very few, if any, who would do such a thing if they haven't started transitioning or at least living their life as the gender they feel they are.
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Dec 25, 2015 10:31
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silence_kit posted:It's not a meme. If you were to read the old feminist threads on this site, you'd find the posters in them often arguing about that kind of stuff. The posters had no mechanism for resolving these kinds of disputes. What would happen in those threads when such a topic came up was posters on both sides would implode and probations had to be handed out because many of the posters got really nasty when their oppression-hierarchies were challenged. This has nothing to do with hierarchies of oppression, which you're making up just now. It's an example of how people, like feminists, can fight their own oppression while still being bigoted against other women (black women, trans women, whatever). It's actually pretty common for minorities to be bigoted against each other and, like white Republicans, to claim that the people they're oppressing are actually oppressing them by wanting to just live their lives.
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Dec 25, 2015 14:29
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Without some degree of appropriation we wouldn't have great new traditions, like Chinese(-American) at Jewish christmas, or british-indian curry
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Dec 26, 2015 11:05
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Is lovely Americanized foods a form of cultural appropriation e.g. General Tso's Chicken?
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Dec 26, 2015 11:07
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If you think General Tso's Chicken is lovely, I will fight you 
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Dec 26, 2015 11:08
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lmao, I honestly didn't realized it was part of the Oberlin farcequote:In another gastronomic error, one student found the General Tso's chicken was made with steamed chicken rather than fried and covered in a sauce that was "so weird that I didn't even try."
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Dec 26, 2015 11:08
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shrike82 posted:Is lovely Americanized foods a form of cultural appropriation e.g. General Tso's Chicken? Yes, until everyone eats then, at which point they aren't. I think that's how it works.
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Dec 26, 2015 11:15
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VitalSigns posted:This has nothing to do with hierarchies of oppression, which you're making up just now. I don't understand how anyone could have a hard time grasping this concept, aside from willful ignorance. In many cases it's a deliberate ploy by people in political or other positions of power with a social agenda to turn minority groups on each other for their own benefit. Weaponizing and distracting economic minorities by turning them against racial minorities is like the third great American sport behind baseball and blowing stuff up. Of course people need to know how to negotiate those scenarios to live responsibly in the modern world. And of course it would be preposterous to suggest that any right-leaning forum has ever gone ballistic over, for a conveniently similar example, the negotiation between Christian religious freedom and the individual civil liberties of gays.
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Dec 26, 2015 11:32
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Zombies' Downfall posted:I don't understand how anyone could have a hard time grasping this concept, aside from willful ignorance. That's exactly what it is; if hanging onto your ideology is more important that finding out the truth, you'll invent reasons to ignore opinions you don't like and cast the other side as hysterical and insane. Seeing people on the other side arguing becomes "well obviously liberalism is crazy and stupid, look they can't even agree so it must be irrational!" (Often bizarrely accompanied by "look at this healthy debate on my side, unlike the liberal hivemind where no dissent is permitted"). Someone saying "As a [race] I have personal experience with this so I know what I'm talking about" becomes "look how liberals have a hierarchy where people above you on the color chart get to call the shots and always get to be right." A couple rude or aggressive people on the other side become "look how terrible liberals are" whereas those people on my side are No True [My Ideology]. Hell we see it in this thread where people took a non-story about some student groups writing a letter to company management expressing their dissatisfaction with a product and having a cordial meeting to improve customer satisfaction and made up from whole cloth "hysterics", "histrionic attacks on cooks", accusations of racism that were never made, etc. Which is typical of what happens whenever anyone who isn't white or isn't a man has a complaint about something in America.
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Dec 26, 2015 16:33
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VitalSigns posted:This has nothing to do with hierarchies of oppression, which you're making up just now. No it actually does. Some women in the thread did not want to place transexual women at a higher rank on the cosmic scale of oppression than themselves because then they'd be obligated to accede to them. Posters in the thread went on spiels about how transexual women, who had lived much of their lives as privileged men, had become accustomed to living lives of privilege and how that their demand wasn't fair to other women. The existence of the p-word is a huge tip-off that these kinds of cosmic scales of oppressed groups exist in social justice ideology. I'm honestly flabbergasted that everybody in this thread is straight-up denying that this idea exists in social justice circles. Of course it does! One of the mantras of social justice ideology is that colorblindness is racism. So if you aren't supposed to treat everybody equally as if their race/sex doesn't matter, you have to have some kind of hierarchy of oppressed groups in your mind to help you make the right moral decisions, because it is definitely not fair to accede to the white man. It's totally built in to the ideology and has to exist for a lot of the other stuff to make sense. I don't see how this can be a contentious point. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Dec 26, 2015 |
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Dec 26, 2015 17:07
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VitalSigns posted:Hell we see it in this thread where people took a non-story about some student groups writing a letter to company management expressing their dissatisfaction with a product and having a cordial meeting to improve customer satisfaction and made up from whole cloth "hysterics", "histrionic attacks on cooks", accusations of racism that were never made, etc. Which is typical of what happens whenever anyone who isn't white or isn't a man has a complaint about something in America. There's been lots of exaggeration in regards to the Oberlin article, but to deny that there's any implicit accusations of racism bundled with accusations of appropriation seems to ignore how the term is bandied about. While some posters in this thread like Obdicut have been very clear at limiting their definitions of appropriation, in most cases, on these forums and the real world appropriation is the vaguely defined act of an individual or singular entity like a school or company that is inherently racist.
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Dec 26, 2015 17:51
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