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i'm on record itt as supporting stricter measures than the institutes of public health have been, and i'm convinced that norway was headed for a sweden-style nudge strategy until the local authorities in oslo and bergen piled on pressure by closing schools in an act of rather dubious legality what i'm objecting to is the tendency to take specific assertions about the world based on individual studies and taking that to assume that the advice as given is unfounded or generally bunk. i do believe that mass mask use earlier would've been more effective in the short term and i suspect that part of the reason there's no mandate is because it'd mean that the state had to foot the bill. i also believe, however, that it's a less effective measure than sometimes asserted (i read a study looking at actual mask use, and people are really bad at it in terms of touching and reusing disposable masks) and that it has other serious problems as part of a wider response. i believe that the institutes of public health are interested in maintaining a wider response. the other point is that new zealand-style stamping out the disease isn't really viable for EU countries, where freedom of movement is both a big political priority and a cornerstone of our economies; a shockingly large part of our remaining manufacturing is done by foreigners for relatively low salaries - until it's under control more globally it's not worth the effort to eradicate it completely now, i think that the way the norwegian government behaved this summer was some shameful poo poo which should've faced much greater scrutiny at the time, but i never got the impression that those fuckups were FHI-sponsored
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Dec 8, 2020 12:38
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I love the ping-ponging of moral high ground and fearmongering that has taken place across the Öresund bridge since the start of the pandemic. Sweden up to bat:
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Dec 8, 2020 13:34
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thotsky posted:lol gently caress off. They off course can't take full responsibility for everything that has happened afterwards, it is possible for multiple parties to be to blame. But let's not pretend that people wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if this originated in the US and it turned out that the government was actively censoring doctors speaking out about how bad it was in the early stages, and not allowing their citizens to speak about it on social media. The initial response to the virus outbreak from the chinese government was monstrous, ineffective, and part of the reason we are where we are today.
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Dec 8, 2020 16:02
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military cervix posted:They off course can't take full responsibility for everything that has happened afterwards, it is possible for multiple parties to be to blame. Trying to "all sides" the blame does nothing but provide cover for domestic politicians that are like 99% responsible for the outcome.
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Dec 8, 2020 17:50
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military cervix posted:
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Dec 8, 2020 18:07
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It was blatantly obvious that the Chinese government was taking this extremely seriously, before things got rolling elsewhere. There is no reason at all to believe that Chinese social media being 100% open to discussion would have changed anything. No, the Chinese government shouldn't have done that, but the impact was so minuscule as to be effectively meaningless. gently caress, we had both NYC and Lombardy as indicators of how bad things could get, and still our politicians decided we should give it another go moving into fall and winter. We have no way to know how these measures impacted their ability to limit the outbreak in the very early stages. At some point the chinese government started taking this seriously, which sadly did not cause everyone else to follow their lead. Their latter response doesn't change the fact that the very early stages of the pandemic was marred by censorship, underplaying the disease and punishing the doctors that spoke out about it. (We're talking december/january here.) The local Wuhan-government denied the possiblity of human-to-human infection long after it was shown. I don't think criticizing the chinese government for it is uncalled for. As stated, we have no idea how this affected their ability to nip covid in the bud. You might of course say that even mentioning these things provides cover for western states. Domestic politicians in the west deserve all the blame they get, but I don't think an honest accounting of the errors in the very start of the pandemic hinders that.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:47
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military cervix posted:We have no way to know how these measures impacted their ability to limit the outbreak in the very early stages. At some point the chinese government started taking this seriously, which sadly did not cause everyone else to follow their lead. And again, there was basically no overlap between the outbreaks in China and the majority of the world. By the time the virus got to Europe, the evidence was there for the seriousness of the disease and how to beat it. military cervix posted:You might of course say that even mentioning these things provides cover for western states. Domestic politicians in the west deserve all the blame they get, but I don't think an honest accounting of the errors in the very start of the pandemic hinders that.
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Dec 8, 2020 19:04
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You claimed the Chinese government "caused millions of deaths globally", and that's why you don't believe their numbers. Except as you even admit yourself, the actual issue was the local government in Wuhan - the one the central government told to gently caress off so they could handle poo poo. Which they did. Fair enough. What I should have said was this: I don't trust the chinese government because an important part of their initial response to COVID was censorship, punishing whistleblowers and underinforming their populace and the rest of the world. This is partly, but not solely on the Wuhan government. These same issues possibly (this is impossible to know) led to their inability to initially contain the disease. With that said, I don't really dispute that they appear to have things under control now. This doesn't really change the level of trust you should put into whatever the chinese government says.
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Dec 8, 2020 19:27
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Western governments weren't taking corona serious until something like June. I'd argue that many of them still don't. All regardless of what China does or says. I doubt it would have made a difference if they blew the whistle 2 or 4 weeks earlier. Corona was spreading around the globe since at least November 2019. Most certainly earlier still.
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Dec 8, 2020 22:19
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nah norway was totally shut down and the government was threatening to send the army to chase people back from their cabins, it was p serious
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Dec 8, 2020 22:22
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V. Illych L. posted:nah norway was totally shut down and the government was threatening to send the army to chase people back from their cabins, it was p serious The Swedish military has a poor history of deploying against civilians.
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Dec 8, 2020 23:12
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military cervix posted:Fair enough. What I should have said was this: I don't trust the chinese government because an important part of their initial response to COVID was censorship, punishing whistleblowers and underinforming their populace and the rest of the world. This is partly, but not solely on the Wuhan government. These same issues possibly (this is impossible to know) led to their inability to initially contain the disease.
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Dec 9, 2020 02:34
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But well you see as a supreme westerner and part of the nr 1 civilisation I must rabidly blame the chinese for everything. This is absolutely not racist and dumb, its the chinese who are racist and dumb! Since everything bad is their fault . From 4g to corona to drone war and the enviroment, always blame the chinese.
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Dec 9, 2020 09:37
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Hedenius posted:Again, it didn’t matter one bit what the Chinese government did. Most western governments simply decided that it would be too costly to shut down and contain the virus.
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Dec 9, 2020 09:44
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V. Illych L. posted:nah norway was totally shut down and the government was threatening to send the army to chase people back from their cabins, it was p serious I still don't really understand how Norway has so far been one of the least affected/infected countries in Europe while having the lightest of light touches in terms of restrictions, but I guess it has something to do with that almost overnight shutdown right as things were kicking off. I remember speaking with friends in other countries back in March and things were still business as usual there while schools, shops and other workplaces were closing down here. In early April walking through the city centre was like a ghost town. A month or two later things were back to normal for me except I was working from home, while half my friends abroad were barely allowed to leave the house. Maybe the very low population density has also had an effect? But then, Oslo aside, there hasn't been that much spread in the cities either.
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Dec 9, 2020 09:57
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evil_bunnY posted:Exactly. The CPC strategy was deny-deny-deny then hardcore lockdowns that by and large worked. Most euros just gave up after a bit of hand wringing, half-rear end lockdowns, then re-openings without test and trace or effective containment. Blaming euro covid deaths on the chinese is extremely disingenuous. As I've already stated, multiples parties can be to blame for something. My statement is this: The chinese governments "deny-deny-deny" where they censored social media, punishing whistleblowers and underinforming their populace was potentially catastrophic. For everyone saying that the chinese initial response is immaterial: That statement relies on a view that the COVID-pandemic was essentially a fait accompli at the time the chinese government first learned about it. I don't think the evidence supports that. I've never stated that this absolves western governments of anything at all. I've criticized the western response to the pandemic multiple times on these forums.
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Dec 9, 2020 10:05
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Yah, in Norway we basically had very good luck with the timing of the first rapid lockdown. For once, the right people made a fast and correct decision.
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Dec 9, 2020 10:35
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Groke posted:Yah, in Norway we basically had very good luck with the timing of the first rapid lockdown. For once, the right people made a fast and correct decision. this was, i feel the need to re-emphasise, because local officials in bergen and oslo decided they had the power to start shutting poo poo down under smittevernloven as the actual government were still formulating their response. at that point we were locked into a shutdown strategy because the government would've totally owned a swedish approach. the order of events here is almost certainly going to be forgotten unless people keep harping on it, and this poo poo is very important
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Dec 9, 2020 12:40
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military cervix posted:For everyone saying that the chinese initial response is immaterial: That statement relies on a view that the COVID-pandemic was essentially a fait accompli at the time the chinese government first learned about it. I don't think the evidence supports that. *: This is only available via pre-print, as far as I can determine, so it may not be completely reliable or it may be 100% accurate. 
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Dec 9, 2020 13:52
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:The problem with this is that there were (presumed) asymptomatic cases found in Italy in early September, 2019, Brazil in November, 2019(*), and even the often-referenced dates for China in December don't match information that has later been leaked. You know what, fair enough. It's very much possible that the virus would have spread no matter what the chinese government had done. In that regard, my initial statement was far too strongly stated. With that said, I still stand by this part: I see no reason to trust any information the chinese government puts out. They have the situation under control now, but their initial response was terrible, and their track-record of honesty leaves much to be desired. Edit: Thinking back on it, I apologize for the way I came off during these exchanges. It was not my intention. military cervix fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 14:15
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military cervix posted:They have the situation under control now, but their initial response was terrible, and their track-record of honesty leaves much to be desired. Western governments: "Hey, two out of three ain't bad." EDIT:  
SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 14:53
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V. Illych L. posted:this was, i feel the need to re-emphasise, because local officials in bergen and oslo decided they had the power to start shutting poo poo down under smittevernloven as the actual government were still formulating their response. Maybe it's time they do it again.
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Dec 9, 2020 15:32
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evil_bunnY posted:Maybe it's time they do it again. There's a partial lockdown in 38 municipalities, but we won't see the effects of that for like two weeks.
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Dec 9, 2020 15:57
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evil_bunnY posted:Yeah I 'member. Local institutions basically called their incompetence bluff. The heroes we needed.
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Dec 9, 2020 16:44
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Hedenius posted:Again, it didn’t matter one bit what the Chinese government did. Most western governments simply decided that it would be too costly to shut down and contain the virus. Most western governments are also not dictatorships. Simple really.
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Dec 9, 2020 17:02
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A Buttery Pastry posted:And again, there was basically no overlap between the outbreaks in China and the majority of the world. Yeah because the chinese government is so very trustworthy and caring. They literally put religious minorities into KZ-camps ffs. They even told WHO that there were no "clear signs of covid transmitting between humans" as late as january, even though they drat well knew that as early as December last year.
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Dec 9, 2020 17:48
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Groke posted:The heroes we needed. there's a weird consensus emerging about the corona response which completely elides this and gives the central government full credit, so i find myself yammering about this to the point of tedium
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Dec 9, 2020 17:55
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Yeah in Trondheim NTNU cancelled all classes and closed its campuses several days ahead of the national response. I assume that was coordinated with local government, but either way if the largest employer in Trondheim sends 10,000 direct employees, 40,000 students and who knows how many people in associated businesses home I don't suppose the city could have gone on with business as usual.
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Dec 9, 2020 18:16
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That sms the Swedish government sent out today was pretty weak. I understand why they didn't want to provide a link but they could've at least made some effort and put some of the information in the message itself. Kamrat fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 13:33
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Yes I just got that message and was is that it? Then I went to their stupid site and was even more is that it? I'm already doing more than that, some of their recommendations are just my regular behaviour.
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Dec 14, 2020 13:58
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Now we get to laugh at MSB:s apparently lone communcations strategy intern, so there is a silver lining to it
Threadkiller Dog fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 13:58
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Dec 14, 2020 14:51
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Corona has killed more people in Sweden than violent crime has done since we started keeping records. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disasters_in_Sweden_by_death_toll Corona is building up to one of the top worst disasters to befall Sweden since the country was founded (which was incidentally the worst thing to befall all neighboring countries since their founding). 
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Dec 14, 2020 17:19
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The only "good" thing to come out of this crisis is hard evidence that this government quite literally takes its marching orders from NHO or private business and will gladly conspire with them to lie about facts and sabotage policies meant to protect norwegian lives during a motherfucking pandemic. People's lives were lost over this. How are these absolute fuckers still in office.
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Dec 15, 2020 07:36
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Can't vote against Høyre if you died of covid-19.
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Dec 15, 2020 07:55
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In a move that is surely utterly and completely innocent, Saudi Arabia sought to have 10 security guards registered as not just regular diplomatically immune, a status given by D-visa to diplomats and embassy personnel, but instead applied for them to be listed on the official diplomat list. In other unrelated news, 10 security guards were also involved in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.
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Dec 15, 2020 12:41
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It's actually reassuring that Norway, unlike the US, won't let the saudis execute dissidents.
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Dec 15, 2020 13:01
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This was also *before* kashoogi so clearly they're paying attention to something turkey wasn't.
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Dec 15, 2020 13:11
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Alhazred posted:It's actually reassuring that Norway, unlike the US, won't let the saudis execute dissidents. Well, disregarding that it's not actually really legal to make security forces diplomats for... absolutely loving obvious reasons, the norwegian state also has a positive obligation under ECHR article 2 and 3 to actively seek to prevent murder and torture of "everyone" (meaning anyone), a duty which includes not allowing an obvious Saudi murdersquad the means to commit abduction, torture and murder. This duty supercedes the creation of diplomats and the respect for diplomatic immunity anyway. Or is at least supposed to, if the government does its job. Meanwhile, due to the new inclusion of CO2 footprint metrics Norway's number one spot on the UN Human Development Index since the 90s has been lost. When the new numbers come in we are at a whopping 16th place. Norway: A terrible place to live  Lmao. Stay relevant, UN.
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Dec 15, 2020 13:20
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Nice piece of fish posted:Meanwhile, due to the new inclusion of CO2 footprint metrics Norway's number one spot on the UN Human Development Index since the 90s has been lost. When the new numbers come in we are at a whopping 16th place.
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Dec 15, 2020 13:58
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