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Death Guards army ability for 18" rapid fire is just too good compared to their melee options, especially given that boltguns are free and axes etc cost points. At MSU the melee options are slightly cheaper or break even versus two special weapons but that cost rapidly grows as the unit does. That said, if you're going melee and plan on taking a transport, totally take a 9-man unit and a Putrifier. 10d6 S4 AP- D2 that also inflicts a mortal wound on a 6 is a solid anti-horde/monster option, doing enough damage to kill a 5+-man Primaris unit outright or kill a T7 monster with 9 or less wounds. For 1CP it's a nifty option that most people wouldn't see coming.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:34
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There is the free option for melee that is 2x knives swap for the bolter. So you can get +1 attack and just throw plague weapon dice at something, again, best with the warlord trait. The 9x knife Marines + 1 grenade character in a rhino was a part of my original list. As I added more walking units though I figured I would just go all marching hoard instead.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:42
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will blow your mind.
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Tiger Millionaire posted:I'm currently bringing all of them except the surgeon and 1 of each terminator squad, though I could probably cut the two grenade boosters for an extra plague marine squad? Also a chaos lord for rerolling to hits. You need some cannon fodder to screen your dudes. Having only 20ish PMs is too anemic and won't weather shooting. You are absolutely correct about the flail of corruption; I would almost always bring the max allotment of two. They are going to be more useful than another 2 measly boltguns. Power fists, on the other hand, are pretty bad even though they're cheap. I wouldn't bother with one on the Champion but a plaguesword is probably worth a point. Mounting PMs in Rhinos is not great as the Rhinos get blown up turn 1 with relatively little effort; I'd footslog everything. From what I've read so far, the Typhus + Poxwalkers combo is underperforming significantly. Typhus is quite expensive for what he brings and even with his aura Poxwalkers can't kill jack poo poo and they're almost useless without him. Plaguebearers are working way better for cheap Troops but if you just throw them into your list you'd have to run it as a <Chaos> or <Nurgle> Detachment and lose all of the unique Death Guard traits and stratagems so you have to dedicate another Detachment to them which is annoying. Cultists are another cheap option for cannon fodder and a Lord is a very solid HQ choice. Plague Drones seem pretty good and useful but Myphitic Blight-Haulers are too expensive and on top of that they are packing two of the most overpriced weapons in the game right now. They cost almost as much as Plagueburst Crawlers, which are probably the single best unit in the Codex. They are absolutely nuts and you will want to bring at least two of them with entropy cannons if you actually plan on winning. Codex: Death Guard is full of a ton of shiny distractions but if you filter out the noise there are some really solid units from which to build a good list. Don't forget the FAQ came out yesterday and fixed Winged Daemon Princes; they are still 24 points more than the walking type. Phyresis fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 13:55
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Looks like you can use Kurov's Aquilla with the Ultramarines Warlord that gives back CP spent on a 5+. According to the FAQ, you just have to spend a CP on the IG 'take an extra relic' strat.
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Oct 2, 2017 14:34
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Looks like you can use Kurov's Aquilla with the Ultramarines Warlord that gives back CP spent on a 5+. According to the FAQ, you just have to spend a CP on the IG 'take an extra relic' strat. I thought relics were only tied to the faction of your warlord?
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Oct 2, 2017 14:45
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I did too, but I guess that's only the free one?quote:Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I think this is a bad ruling, but it is what it is.
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Oct 2, 2017 14:48
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Kurov's Aquila isn't restricted to a particular faction? EDIT: Officers only. So you give it to a dude who's only job is to hide.
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Oct 2, 2017 14:56
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It's IG, so you'd need a guard detachment and character to use the strat and put it on him.
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Oct 2, 2017 14:59
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A character with Officer keyword. Not a lot of those outside of Guard.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:04
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MasterSlowPoke posted:It's IG, so you'd need a guard detachment and character to use the strat and put it on him. Counterpoint, that detachment could be a 30pt officer and some conscripts to bubble wrap the rest of your army, a patrol detachment. Or a hiding officer and a single unit of deepstriking scions. I have played IG for years, but I never though they'd be the thing other players ally in to give their lists a competitive edge!
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Oct 2, 2017 15:35
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That ruling also means that if you have a Death Guard detachment and a CSM detachment, your Death Guard psykers (including Mortarion) can Chaos Familiar out for Warptime/Prescience.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:41
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Genghis Cohen posted:I never though they'd be the thing other players ally in to give their lists a competitive edge! Yeah, between this new stuff and assassins I have been thinking about desert themed guard, or just saying gently caress-it and get some I have decided not to. At least for now. I want some non imperium stuff so when my kid is old enough we can have some legit battles.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:45
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CSM strats only work on CSM units, which is every legion but Death Guard and Thousand Sons. It's just like how Space Marine stats don't work on Blood Angels and Deathwatch.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:46
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MasterSlowPoke posted:CSM strats only work on CSM units, which is every legion but Death Guard and Thousand Sons. Just like how Space Marine stats don't work on Blood Angels and Deathwatch. Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army? A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on any permitted target: they do not need to be from that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists from the Death Guard Detachment.  
Phyresis fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 15:47
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You know how mass allying was supposed to be made more fair and balanced by detachments, stratagems, relics, and tactics necessitating a sacrifice of versatility for power? That was nice.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:52
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Phyresis posted:Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army? I missed that one, it's an even worse ruling.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:58
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Is it really a coincidence that Games Workshop goes and fucks things up literally the moment I decide to take a look at this game again? Between this and Codex: Astra Militarum, sheesh Eldar are next up, can't wait to be op again 
Phyresis fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 16:01
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It does at least eat into the 3 detachment limit at 2k points.
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Oct 2, 2017 16:06
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Guard look like they're going to be very good, but aren't the biggest thing they're changing Russes? I mean, and regiment tactics, but I distinctly remember Russes (particularly battle cannon Russes) being derided as poo poo when 8th launched. You can squeak into some off-faction strategems and relics, but those aren't breaking the game by themselves, and there's still no allying across major faction blocs.
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Oct 2, 2017 16:07
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Strobe posted:Guard look like they're going to be very good, but aren't the biggest thing they're changing Russes? I mean, and regiment tactics, but I distinctly remember Russes (particularly battle cannon Russes) being derided as poo poo when 8th launched. Yeah the benefits to Russes is pretty fantastic, but the issue here is that the combinations of detachments and the use of Imperium as a massive catch-all keyword means that you can maximize your efficiency by picking and choosing from whatever group you want. In a game as complicated as 40K there will always be optimal choices for each army, and in this way you can grab as many of those optimal choices as you can fit. In my case I was already planning on doing a combination of Primaris and some kind of Inquisition, Sisters, or AM army; adding this makes it an obvious choice. It's an unfortunate side effect of wanting to enable players to have a more thematic and narrative army. Imperium, being the most popular, gets access to the most stuff and therefore has the most systems to exploit. In other words hams ruin everything.
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Oct 2, 2017 16:50
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I feel like for most stratagems it isn't too much of a problem. It isn't like you can field a Guardsman Dreadnought, for example, and most relics boost a single unit rather than a whole army. The real problem is when you get actual cross-pollination, like Death Guard cultists or the AM-Ultramarine command point feedback loop, because the ruling is too broad.
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Oct 2, 2017 17:05
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If tactics applied cross-detachment I'd be more worried. As is, with a (typically) three detachment maximum, Strategems and Relics not being insanely overpowered and having opportunity costs, and special rules only applying to specific parts of armies and not the whole list, the most dangerous threat to good balance is still FW.
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Oct 2, 2017 17:06
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:
And changes to that system could really hurt the smaller imperial subfactions like the assassins or inquisition that can't really be fielded on their own
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Oct 2, 2017 17:07
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Sharks Dont Sleep posted:For alternatives I really like the Evilcraft chaos marines. http://evilcraft.eu/category/products/complete-models/ This is just what I was looking for! Thanks!
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Oct 2, 2017 17:17
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Phyresis posted:Advice This is really useful and interesting advice, thanks. I've dropped the power fists, a hauler and some of the less useful aura guys and have been able to squeeze in more troops and even a second crawler, with enough left over to get a couple more plasma guns.
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Oct 2, 2017 17:18
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The blightlord termie set only comes with 3 axes and 3 swords, you can't give the entire squad the same bread and butter unit option  I also need to convert up a second combi -plasma, which I was expecting, but I still can't get over that I need to convert some basic gear choices too
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Oct 2, 2017 18:50
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Tiger Millionaire posted:The blightlord termie set only comes with 3 axes and 3 swords, you can't give the entire squad the same bread and butter unit option GW.txt
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Oct 2, 2017 19:04
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Giant Isopod posted:And changes to that system could really hurt the smaller imperial subfactions like the assassins or inquisition that can't really be fielded on their own Things like Assassins honestly shouldn't be a faction anyway. Just give them a rule that lets them be used in any Imperial detachment.
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Oct 2, 2017 19:05
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Given how strong they are for their points I really like the curernt implementation for assassins where you have to either take a keyword Imperium Patrol detachment or give up a CP for an aux detachment. I feel like we'd see them on basically every table if you could just splash them in without penalty.
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Oct 2, 2017 19:22
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I feel like at certain levels of play you do see them or Robutte on every table
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Oct 2, 2017 19:35
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I am a little sad that 40k is being infected more strongly with the taint of Warmachine and Malifaux. Seeing the same named characters in every list to me speaks of a failure of balance, while also eroding any immersion people have with the setting. The fact that the King of Space is constantly getting involved in these tiny conflicts is madness. I think the 30k system is much stronger here. You can still play with your armies big cool leaders, but it has to be a pretty significant points level and even then you are missing out on taking a "Crazy Tank" (tm) to plop your Primarch down. If named characters are so good they are an auto include that says to me that either they should be restricted in some fashion and/or other HQ options should be better. Taking the optimal stiff for a serious tournament is fine. It is not too my taste, but it is certainly a valid way to enjoy the hobby. I just feel people should take pride in their Space Mans, and not just be the guys who wash Cawls car while he leads your Forge to glorious victory over Guilliman.
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Oct 2, 2017 19:49
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Seeing the same named characters in every list to me speaks of a failure of balance, while also eroding any immersion people have with the setting. The fact that the King of Space is constantly getting involved in these tiny conflicts is madness.
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Oct 2, 2017 19:55
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Eh. Even if his name was Frank or Generic Big Spacedude, I feel like Shake it Bake it ReBooty Quake it being so ever-present is a problem.
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Oct 2, 2017 19:56
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Roboute Guilliman and Cawl being undercosted is yet another failure of Games Workshop's inter-faction balance and not an attempt to chase the target of two completely different skirmish games with completely different audiences, you blithering moron.
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Oct 2, 2017 20:09
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I am a little sad that 40k is being infected more strongly with the taint of Warmachine and Malifaux. Seeing the same named characters in every list to me speaks of a failure of balance, while also eroding any immersion people have with the setting. The fact that the King of Space is constantly getting involved in these tiny conflicts is madness.  Most of the named characters in 30k are support types and are complete trash in combat. There are exceptions, such as Eidolon, but a surprising amount are just dudes in power armor armed with power swords with a strong special rule or change to army composition. They're not necessary at all and a generic praetor is almost always a better beatstick. I'm not a big fan of named characters; I really enjoy converting my own and have mostly stuck to generic HQs as a result. However, 40k has really pushed named characters since 5th edition or so. It's gotten better, but chapter tactics used to be tied to specific characters. GW had sort of fixed it, but then Guilliman showed up and welp 
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Oct 2, 2017 20:17
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The Deleter posted:Roboute Guilliman and Cawl being undercosted is yet another failure of Games Workshop's inter-faction balance and not an attempt to chase the target of two completely different skirmish games with completely different audiences, you blithering moron. Gotta sell those 90$ sets, yo! The only named character I own is an unpainted Mephiston. I've skipped Lemartes re-stocks for 3 or 4 emails now. I just don't like using named guys. ANd that's why I don't ITC.
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Oct 2, 2017 20:21
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Only Marines were heavy on named characters in 5th, and only because Chapter rules were tied to them. The strongest armies (Guard, Grey Knights, Blood Angels) weren't reliant on characters at all. I agree that the current situation where some characters are auto-include is poor because in a well-balanced game no choice should be so optimal that it's always taken. The ham fixation on special characters is exhausting though - some sections of the player base are absolutely obsessed by them to a frankly unhealthy degree.
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Oct 2, 2017 20:25
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The lack of saturation of special characters is why (whisper it) I like Age of Sigmar. The vast majority of armies in AoS are led by generic characters, and it feels way more immersive for it.
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Oct 2, 2017 20:31
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That sounds cool and I've been peeking at the started sets
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Oct 2, 2017 20:40
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:The lack of saturation of special characters is why (whisper it) I like Age of Sigmar. I've actually been feeling a little burned out on 40k recently and been thinking about taking a break until my Blood Angels get a codex. I've got some Stormcast Eternals and the new Firstorm stuff for AoS looks pretty cool so I've been thinking really hard about putting a army together themed after one of the new city states.
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Oct 2, 2017 20:43
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