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CommonShore posted:Maybe it's a book that uses plot points as necessary and doesn't have an internally consistent and knowable logic to its events. I dunno, to me one of LOTRs things is that it "makes sense". It doesn't have to be knowable, but I think it can still be internally consistent.
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Aug 10, 2021 15:37
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The Balrog came because Gandalf started using magic, which, as he is of Valinor, smells like home cooking to his fellow Maia. You know how cartoon pies release a puff of enticing steam that will pull a character to the pie by the nose? It's exactly like that.
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Aug 10, 2021 16:27
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Alternatively one of Sauron's agents sent him an evilgram. Maybe both!
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Aug 10, 2021 16:30
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OPAONI posted:The Balrog came because Gandalf started using magic, which, as he is of Valinor, smells like home cooking to his fellow Maia. You know how cartoon pies release a puff of enticing steam that will pull a character to the pie by the nose? It's exactly like that. Those are usually feckless hoboes that are shown drifting on pie-scent, too. But then, Durin's Bane has been jobless and squatting for thousands of years, so maybe we can consider it a hobo?
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Aug 10, 2021 16:38
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I like how, during the scouring of the Shire, even after they've driven out the ruffians and witnessed the end of Saruman, they go to bed and leave Saruman's hobbit prisoners (including Will Whitfoot) in jail for another night, until the next morning. Like no hurry, assholes.
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Aug 10, 2021 16:48
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Also I don't think you need to believe that the Ring has a consciousness or any agency to believe that it has certain effects in the same way the Earth has gravity and behaves in specific ways even though it has no intentionality or purpose.
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Aug 10, 2021 17:01
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It's consistent on everything important, but Tolkien himself constantly was monkeying with existing stories, and some inconsistencies worked their way in. He cleverly framed the stories as being told via narrators, so there is an out in "oh Bilbo/Frodo/Sam writing in the Red Book did not know something or made the mistake, not Tolkien. Tolkien was not a professional writer initially, and he made mistakes that he himself then tried to correct with later editions and such. Like it is bonkers that he did not know how LOTR would end when he started writing it. So every now and then when we have these nitty gritty discussions, one of the potential explanations for something that is contentious is just "Tolkien kinda dropped the ball and did not make it clear" For example on this ring's influence discussion, there are contradictory elements of the story. Gandalf specifically calls out the Watcher going for Frodo first, but as euphronius has been pointing out, there are times when the Ring does not broadcast itself. Tolkien never explicitly calls out the rings ability to broadcast its presence, but it seemingly does so, related to the vague existence of a "will" within the ring when it slips onto Frodo's finger in Bree. As I've thought about it, what I think might be the case is powerful evil being might have some latent ability to sense the ring that people like Gandalf and even Saruman might not have. All of the Wise fear the ring greatly and understand the peril in attempting to claim it. Gandalf does not want Bilbo's ring to be the One Ring. He is actively fearful of it. However something like the Watcher or the Balrog would have no such compunctions. They are not the same as Gandalf. The Balrog would likely not even know what the One Ring is, however it's possible that it could tell something of great power was with the fellowship, and when combined with it picking up on Gandalf's presence, it chose to engage the party instead of letting the orcs handle it like with the Dwarves.
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Aug 10, 2021 17:03
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The person claimed “the balrog sensed the ring”. I asked for evidence of this claim . The best evidence I can see is - watcher in water grabbed Frodo first - orc captain drove spear into Frodo - balrog is evil I don’t think that is sufficient evidence to support the claim. Perhaps my level of proof is too high in this instance !!
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Aug 10, 2021 17:03
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Magnusth posted:I've seen this tossed around a bunch and i hate it - Gandalf set up a beacon for those who could see because he started a *bright, unnatural fire* on top of a mountain. "oh, hm, why is there a bright (blue? i think?) fire burning on that mountainside? i wonder if that's gandalf, known fire-loving wizard" It's the range in which he says he is vulnerable now, along with being in a blizzard. First he tells them that a fire is fine, because any foes either can't tolerate the blizzard and so aren't around and those that can already know where they are. When not even Gimli can make it light, he uses a word of command and creates a blue/green fire, then says that his location is now known from Rivendell to the Mouths of the Anduin. The latter is near Pelargir. Gandalf is very very clearly not talking about just physical surveillance here, since Rivendell is something like several weeks travel away and Pelargir is across half the continent. And they are in a blizzard bad enough that it has driven away all of the conventional foes he would normally worry about. That doesn't say that the Balrog will have been woken by it or immediately alerted by it, but however magical detection works, Gandalf is very very obvious. The Balrog detecting that on his doorstep seems a reasonable guess, just not a surefire one. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Aug 10, 2021 |
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Aug 10, 2021 17:15
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euphronius posted:Alternatively one of Sauron's agents sent him an evilgram. Maybe both! "lol, Gandalf is in Moria, plz kill him"
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Aug 10, 2021 17:29
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euphronius posted:The person claimed “the balrog sensed the ring”. I asked for evidence of this claim . The best evidence I can see is There's no proof, it's just speculation. I'm going to add another piece of evidence. When Bilbo Baggins rejoins Thorin and Company after escaping the goblin tunnels, Gandalf immediately recognizes that he has some sort of magic on him. Gandalf can sense the ring in a limited sense when he is close to it. I have an effort post coming, but I think there are two ways the ring makes its presence known, one which draws in evil that is proximate to the ring, another that basically is the equivalent of footsteps on a creaky floorboard somewhere in your house.
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Aug 10, 2021 17:47
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Gandalf can also sense bullshit when he's close to it and when Bilbo talks about how he escaped the goblins he was full of it.
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Aug 10, 2021 17:53
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sweet geek swag posted:There's no proof, it's just speculation. I'm going to add another piece of evidence. When Bilbo Baggins rejoins Thorin and Company after escaping the goblin tunnels, Gandalf immediately recognizes that he has some sort of magic on him. Gandalf can sense the ring in a limited sense when he is close to it. I have an effort post coming, but I think there are two ways the ring makes its presence known, one which draws in evil that is proximate to the ring, another that basically is the equivalent of footsteps on a creaky floorboard somewhere in your house. I'm posting during work so apologies for inconsistent poo poo. the idea that the ring draws in evil is what i was going for, as well as the fact that evil being would not have any compunctions about the ring like Gandalf or Galadriel do, and thus be much more receptive to that draw. Like the ring does not "know" that the Balrog could easily supplant Sauron with the ring, it just is putting out a mayday call since if some Orc picks the ring up and claims it, Sauron can easily find it.
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Aug 10, 2021 17:54
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euphronius posted:The person claimed “the balrog sensed the ring”. I asked for evidence of this claim . The best evidence I can see is I'd consider the Balrog attacking the Fellowship but ignoring the Dwarven Colony to also be compelling evidence that it either sensed the ring or was for some reason personally invested in attacking the Fellowship. The Dwarven colony was both larger and presumably better armed than the Fellowship so unless the Balrog did know of (or sensed) the ring or sensed Gandalf then it stands to reason it would consider the colony a bigger threat to it than a small group of 9 people.
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Aug 10, 2021 17:57
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euphronius posted:Alternatively one of Sauron's agents sent him an evilgram. Balrog just pawn in game of life….
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Aug 10, 2021 18:03
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Ginette Reno posted:I'd consider the Balrog attacking the Fellowship but ignoring the Dwarven Colony to also be compelling evidence that it either sensed the ring or was for some reason personally invested in attacking the Fellowship. Maybe it doesn't attack the dwarves because there a bigger threat. The Balrog could be a big scarey cat. After all it hid in the earth for like two full Ages.
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Aug 10, 2021 18:07
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Re: things like the watcher, I've always had a vague sense that the Ring draws evil near to it by its nature in a way that isn't really under its control and in a way that said evil may not be aware of. It is just bad vibes incarnate, and bad things fall towards it. It was safe from that in the Shire because a) it was at a low power ebb for most of it and b) there is no real evil in the Shire to ever be drawn to it. That said, I would expect people or beings that operate on a higher level level like Gandalf might well be able to be more consciously aware and sense in some way of the evil shadow it casts on the world when they're near it, especially when it's more active or when they're more familiar with it or already know it's there. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Aug 10, 2021 |
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Aug 10, 2021 18:14
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Imagined posted:I like how, during the scouring of the Shire, even after they've driven out the ruffians and witnessed the end of Saruman, they go to bed and leave Saruman's hobbit prisoners (including Will Whitfoot) in jail for another night, until the next morning. Like no hurry, assholes. I appreciate the joke, but thinking of how Michel Delving is a pretty good trip from Bywater made me think how it's weird that the Shire's de facto capital literally isn't even on the primary map of it. I love how Bag End really is the center of the Red Book's universe.
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Aug 10, 2021 18:42
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MikeJF posted:Re: things like the watcher, I've always had a vague sense that the Ring draws evil near to it by its nature in a way that isn't really under its control and in a way that said evil may not be aware of. It is just bad vibes incarnate, and bad things fall towards it. My thought regarding gandalf is he is actively disinclined to even be around the ring, let alone use it. the ring seems to encourage acts of evil in an attempt to ensnare some weak being like gollum that will be easy for Sauron to find. what was unexpected was gollum just taking it to an underground cave and staying there. similar to how Sauron was blind to the plan to destroy the ring, he was also blind to someone taking the ring but never attempting to use its power. Gollum ironically was humble in the same way Sam is in that he has no desires for ruling others. In the end he just wanted to be left alone, eating fish in the darkness.
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Aug 10, 2021 19:02
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When Frodo, Sam and Gollum pass through Morgul Vale and see the Witch-King’s army start marching out, the Witch-King almost definitely senses the Ring. If I recall correctly the text says something literally like “he paused, sensing another power in his valley”. edit; the orcs at Cirith Ungol also get a message saying “Nazgul uneasy, spies feared on Stairs”, so clearly they have a sense that some kind of powerful force is nearby webmeister fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Aug 10, 2021 |
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Aug 10, 2021 22:51
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Yeah there's definitely a passage somewhere where Gandalf indicates the Nazgul at least can sense the Ring.
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Aug 11, 2021 03:35
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euphronius posted:The person claimed “the balrog sensed the ring”. I asked for evidence of this claim . The best evidence I can see is This really sounds like how right-wingers thought that literally every insurgency and liberation movement of the 1980's was actually secretly organized by the Soviet Union from Moscow. They thought that people from the IRA, ANC, PLO, and Cuban communists were having actual conferences where they were handed orders by Soviet apparatchiks.
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Aug 12, 2021 07:18
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:This really sounds like how right-wingers thought that literally every insurgency and liberation movement of the 1980's was actually secretly organized by the Soviet Union from Moscow. They thought that people from the IRA, ANC, PLO, and Cuban communists were having actual conferences where they were handed orders by Soviet apparatchiks. Yes, yes it does sound like that. Well, except for the fact that The Lord of the Rings is not in real life, where it would be silly to think that literally every insurgency and liberation movement of the 1980's was actually secretly organized by the Soviet Union from Moscow, and is instead in a fictional world where all evil things are actually secretly organized and influenced by Sauron from Mordor. Other than that one little difference, IRA and PLO and whatever, yeah sure. Edit: also, to the mod who changed the title and everyone involved in the "deadly laughter," may I [ LMAO ], 'Lmao' AJA fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Aug 12, 2021 |
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Aug 12, 2021 07:48
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MikeJF posted:Re: things like the watcher, I've always had a vague sense that the Ring draws evil near to it by its nature in a way that isn't really under its control and in a way that said evil may not be aware of. It is just bad vibes incarnate, and bad things fall towards it. That's why the Sackville-Bagginses kept coming round! 
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Aug 12, 2021 11:43
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Runcible Cat posted:That's why the Sackville-Bagginses kept coming round!
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Aug 12, 2021 20:12
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:This really sounds like how right-wingers thought that literally every insurgency and liberation movement of the 1980's was actually secretly organized by the Soviet Union from Moscow. They thought that people from the IRA, ANC, PLO, and Cuban communists were having actual conferences where they were handed orders by Soviet apparatchiks. That’s strange but in your example the Soviets were actually in and around Moria at the crucial time so
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Aug 12, 2021 20:29
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Runcible Cat posted:That's why the Sackville-Bagginses kept coming round! oh my god
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Aug 12, 2021 21:15
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Amazon moving all of their filming to England for Season 2 onwards. Really worth destroying the New Zealand film industry and unions for Tolkien projects.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:11
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Big Hobbit gonna destroy the New Zealand economy.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:21
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Arcsquad12 posted:Amazon moving all of their filming to England for Season 2 onwards. English countryside is big Tolkien, kind of surprised no one has ever filmed it there to begin with. Might be nice. Otoh they might just film everything on a soundstage, Volume or w/e, since that’s working for other shows NZ got lots of tourist dough out of Jackson’s movies so yeah, no surprise they sold the people out for the chance to repeat with Amazon money.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:23
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For verisimilitude the Shire scenes should've been filmed in the English countryside and the Mordor scenes should've been filmed in industrial areas of Ukraine.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:43
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I’m still partially suspicious that this is one giant scam and nothing has actually been filmed.
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Aug 13, 2021 04:08
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I’m still partially suspicious that this is one giant scam and nothing has actually been filmed. The other big Amazon fantasy series, Wheel of Time, is supposedly premiering in a few months and I don’t think there’s been a single trailer for it. Pretty sure that’s also a giant scam.
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Aug 13, 2021 04:18
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Wheel of Time starts with a whinier version of Luke Skywalker and a painfully cliche arc that doesn’t go off the rails for 80k words. I suspect they’re testing the waters a bit on that one. If people eat it up it’ll be a huge hit; if not they’ll shuffle it into the Corner of Shame and pretend they don’t know it.
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Aug 13, 2021 05:29
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elise the great posted:Wheel of Time starts with a whinier version of Luke Skywalker and a painfully cliche arc that doesn’t go off the rails for 80k words. I suspect they’re testing the waters a bit on that one. If people eat it up it’ll be a huge hit; if not they’ll shuffle it into the Corner of Shame and pretend they don’t know it. Pretty much, yeah. You can sum up the first WoT book in two cultural references with "What if you did LotR but replaced the hobbits with Luke Skywalker and his friends from the deleted scenes?" Even if after that it becomes very much its own series. It doing well isn't actually hard to imagine but sustaining popularity/cast long enough to do the whole drat thing sounds highly unlikely.
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Aug 13, 2021 05:51
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:For verisimilitude the Shire scenes should've been filmed in the English countryside and the Mordor scenes should've been filmed in industrial areas of. Ukraine. north england would fit quite fine
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Aug 13, 2021 11:01
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Lmao I just saw a Quora question from someone asking "why did Tolkien tack on that stupid Scouring of the Shire chapter after the Ring was destroyed? What did it add to the story after the good guys won???" And here I'd made my peace with movie-only types
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Aug 13, 2021 11:51
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Runcible Cat posted:That's why the Sackville-Bagginses kept coming round! :mindblown:
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Aug 13, 2021 12:41
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Mahoning posted:The other big Amazon fantasy series, Wheel of Time, is supposedly premiering in a few months and I don’t think there’s been a single trailer for it. Pretty sure that’s also a giant scam. Amazon has apparently changed its promotional strategy. Early on it does very targeted promotion at the source material's fan base, and doesn't start mass market promotion until just a few weeks out from the air date, so that everyone is ready and hyped to see it and doesn't forget to watch.
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Aug 13, 2021 12:44
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Mahoning posted:The other big Amazon fantasy series, Wheel of Time, is supposedly premiering in a few months and I don’t think there’s been a single trailer for it. Pretty sure that’s also a giant scam. There have been multiple character teasers, they're just being used in targeted marketing. A quick overview of Wheel of Time for those unfamiliar: 3 good books at the beginning of the series, 4 good books at the end of the series, enough material for 3 good books spread out over 7 books in the middle of the series.
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Aug 13, 2021 15:51
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