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Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


I left all the faucets on in Deus Ex so I get it.

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Invisible Handjob
Apr 7, 2002

by FactsAreUseless

Redmark posted:

I am told that one of my distantly-related family members would leave the water tap open at Japanese hotels, which is perhaps the lamest act of hatred I have ever heard of.

Your family member isn't alone.

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201609220037.html

http://www.whatsonweibo.com/leaving-hotel-water-taps-running-japan-controversial-act-patriotism-fuels-debate/

Red and Black
Sep 5, 2011

Trump Suggests Using Bedrock China Policy as Bargaining Chip

quote:

WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump, defending his recent phone call with Taiwan’s president, asserted in an interview broadcast on Sunday that the United States was not bound by the One China policy, the 44-year diplomatic understanding that underpins America’s relationship with its biggest rival.

Mr. Trump, speaking on Fox News, said he understood the principle of a single China that includes Taiwan, but declared, “I don’t know why we have to be bound by a One China policy unless we make a deal with China having to do with other things, including trade.”

“I mean, look,” he continued, “we’re being hurt very badly by China with devaluation; with taxing us heavy at the borders when we don’t tax them; with building a massive fortress in the middle of the South China Sea, which they shouldn’t be doing; and, frankly, with not helping us at all with North Korea.”

Mr. Trump is not the first incoming Republican president to question the One China policy, but his suggestion that it could be used as a chip to correct Chinese behavior sets him apart, several Asia experts said. While Mr. Trump has been praised by some Republicans for taking a new look at China policy, his stance could risk a backlash by Beijing, the analysts said.

Not since 1972, when President Richard M. Nixon and Mao Zedong enshrined the One China principle in the Shanghai Communiqué, has an American president or president-elect so publicly and explicitly questioned the agreement, which resulted in the United States’ ending its diplomatic recognition of Taiwan in 1979.

The Chinese government issued no immediate response to Mr. Trump’s remarks. But the comments are likely to reignite a debate that erupted nine days ago when he took a congratulatory phone call from President Tsai Ing-wen of Taiwan.

At first, Mr. Trump played down the implications of the call, saying he was just being polite. Later, his aides said he was well aware of the diplomatic repercussions of speaking to Taiwan’s leader. Lobbyists for Taiwan, including the law firm of former Senator Bob Dole of Kansas, spent months laying the groundwork for the call.

On Friday, China’s senior foreign policy official, Yang Jiechi, met with Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, whom Mr. Trump has designated as his national security adviser, according to a person told about the meeting. It was not clear what the men had discussed.

Some Republican foreign policy experts — including John R. Bolton, who is believed to be a front-runner for the post of deputy secretary of state — have praised Mr. Trump for shaking up a decades-old diplomatic agreement.

As a candidate, Ronald Reagan criticized the decision to abrogate recognition of Taiwan; after his election, he invited a delegation from Taiwan to attend his inauguration, antagonizing Beijing.

But Mr. Trump’s suggestion that the policy could be wielded as a chip in a broader negotiation with China has implications not just for Washington’s relationship with Beijing, several experts on Asia said, but also for America’s support for Taiwan.

“By putting One China up for grabs, Trump will suck all the oxygen out of the U.S.-China relationship, and it risks eventually trading away U.S. support for Taiwan for another U.S. interest,” said Evan Medeiros, a former senior director for Asia at the National Security Council.

“There are good reasons why eight presidents since 1972 have relied on the One China policy,” he added. “This is one area where the Trump team would do well to heed the lessons of history instead of bucking them in the uncertain hope of getting something.”

Jeffrey A. Bader, Mr. Medeiros’s predecessor in the Obama administration, said the One China policy had “always been seen as a foundation of the relationship.”

“Now Trump apparently sees it as part of a broader set of new transactions,” he said. “Mixing trade with an issue seen by Beijing as involving sovereignty is likely to produce an angry Chinese backlash and worsen both issues.”

Mr. Trump, however, did not appear worried about inflaming Beijing. He repeated in the Fox News interview many of the criticisms he has made about China, particularly on trade and currency manipulation. He also emphasized what he said was China’s unwillingness to help curb the nuclear ambitions of its neighbor North Korea — an issue that foreign policy experts believe could confront Mr. Trump as the first geopolitical crisis of his presidency.

The president-elect said he would not tolerate having the Chinese government dictate whether he could take a call from the president of Taiwan. He reiterated that he had not placed the call, and described it as “a very short call saying, ‘Congratulations, sir, on the victory.’”

“Why should some other nation be able to say I can’t take a call?” Mr. Trump asked. “I think it actually would’ve been very disrespectful, to be honest with you, not taking it.”

The Chinese government, which once viewed Mr. Trump favorably as an alternative to the hawkish Hillary Clinton, has struggled to respond to Mr. Trump’s unorthodox approach. China’s foreign minister, Wang Yi, initially played down the significance of the phone call, calling it a “petty action by the Taiwan side” that he said would not upset the longstanding policy of One China.

But as Mr. Trump has repeated his campaign criticisms of China — and as his statements about Taiwan have rippled throughout the region — Beijing has noticeably hardened its tone. It warned him last week, in a front-page editorial in the overseas edition of People’s Daily, that “creating troubles for the China-U.S. relationship is creating troubles for the U.S. itself.”

In a pointed rejoinder to Mr. Trump, the editorial said that pushing China on Taiwan “would greatly reduce the chance to achieve the goal of making America great again.”
oh boy

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

They're going to respond with more threats and more anger without realizing that's just going to get Trump to double down again and again and again

Deep State of Mind
Jul 30, 2006

"It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."
Fun Shoe
Best thing about a Trump presidency. No question

Goatse James Bond
Mar 28, 2010

If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Fojar38 posted:

They're going to respond with more threats and more anger without realizing that's just going to get Trump to double down again and again and again

They need to get some diplomats to come and stay in Trump Tower and butter him up.

Possibly literally.

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

Fojar38 posted:

They're going to respond with more threats and more anger without realizing that's just going to get Trump to double down again and again and again

A never ending cycle of both sides doubling down will be good.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

Telsa Cola posted:

A never ending cycle of both sides doubling down will be good.

Yeah, I guess the interesting shift is that the Democrats want a Cold War with Russia while Trump seems to prefer a Cold War with China. That said, in either case, Russia and China will likely cooperate regardless of who is in charge.

Also, it is literally the forever war from 1984 in a more chilly form.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013
In exchange for dropping the aggressive stance China promises to stop perpetuating the climate change hoax. Win win for everybody, unless you're Kiribati :sun:

Jazerus
May 24, 2011


Don't worry, it's not like a principle which depends on both sides not doubling down infinitely is all that stands between us and global thermonuclear war.

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Ardennes posted:

Yeah, I guess the interesting shift is that the Democrats want a Cold War with Russia while Trump seems to prefer a Cold War with China. That said, in either case, Russia and China will likely cooperate regardless of who is in charge.

Also, it is literally the forever war from 1984 in a more chilly form.

Russia and China aren't cooperating and it's bizarre that you seem to earnestly think they are.

Invisible Handjob
Apr 7, 2002

by FactsAreUseless

Fojar38 posted:

Russia and China aren't cooperating and it's bizarre that you seem to earnestly think they are.

What are you even babbling on about? They've always worked together and loved each other due to their shared history as anti-imperialist communist states.

http://www.scmp.com/article/714064/nixon-intervention-saved-china-soviet-nuclear-attack

Deceitful Penguin
Feb 16, 2011

Bloodnose posted:

Best thing about a Trump presidency. No question
Absolutely. The CCP has gotten away with way too much poo poo and it's about time they learn that people are getting sick of it.

Jazerus posted:

Don't worry, it's not like a principle which depends on both sides not doubling down infinitely is all that stands between us and global thermonuclear war.
yes grandpa, any moment now the missiles will start flying and life on planet earth will end but at least we reached the top with Trumps election, eh?

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Jazerus posted:

Don't worry, it's not like a principle which depends on both sides not doubling down infinitely is all that stands between us and global thermonuclear war.

China has no ability to wage global thermonuclear war

Jesus Christ you all seem to literally believe that China is as powerful as the USSR was when they aren't and even the most cursory evaluation of Chinese power makes it obvious that they aren't.

Judakel
Jul 29, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!

Fojar38 posted:

They're going to respond with more threats and more anger without realizing that's just going to get Trump to double down again and again and again

I don't think I will enjoy anything more than when you are invariably proven wrong as you are about everything.

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Judakel posted:

I don't think I will enjoy anything more than when you are invariably proven wrong as you are about everything.

I'm sorry that the latest vanguard of the global authoritarian revolution that will finally end US hegemony is a limp dicked paper tiger.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005

Deceitful Penguin posted:

Absolutely. The CCP has gotten away with way too much poo poo and it's about time they learn that people are getting sick of it.

They're going to get away with twice as much now as long as they make token gestures to Trumps ego.

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Bip Roberts posted:

They're going to get away with twice as much now as long as they make token gestures to Trumps ego.

The problem is that doing this might require compromising their own egos and lol.

Judakel
Jul 29, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!

Fojar38 posted:

I'm sorry that the latest vanguard of the global authoritarian revolution that will finally end US hegemony is a limp dicked paper tiger.

That limp-dicked paper tiger is going to throw its giant, limp dick all over the parking lot that is soon to be on "Taiwan".

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Judakel posted:

That limp-dicked paper tiger is going to throw its giant, limp dick all over the parking lot that is soon to be on "Taiwan".

I love that the idea of an authoritarian government forcibly conquering and pacifying a democratic nation and then annexing its territory obviously gives you a huge hard on.

Invisible Handjob
Apr 7, 2002

by FactsAreUseless

Judakel posted:

That limp-dicked paper tiger is going to throw its giant, limp dick all over the parking lot that is soon to be on "Taiwan".

Are those supposed to be like, finger quotes or scare quotes around Taiwan there

Judakel
Jul 29, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!

Fojar38 posted:

I love that the idea of an authoritarian government forcibly conquering and pacifying a democratic nation and then annexing its territory obviously gives you a huge hard on.

It doesn't. Unlike you, I am talking about what is likely to happen.

Judakel
Jul 29, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!

Invisible Handjob posted:

Are those supposed to be like, finger quotes or scare quotes around Taiwan there

Used-to-be-a-thing quotes.

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Judakel posted:

It doesn't. Unlike you, I am talking about what is likely to happen.

Toxx it.

Invisible Handjob
Apr 7, 2002

by FactsAreUseless

Judakel posted:

I don't think I will enjoy anything more than when you are invariably proven wrong as you are about everything.


Judakel posted:

It doesn't. Unlike you, I am talking about what is likely to happen.

Seems pretty clear to me you will enjoy the glassing of Taiwan more than anything.

Also I like how you think China dropping the bomb on its renegade province it desperately wants to reunite with the motherland, an island full of people bound by culture blood and trade, is the most likely outcome. All right then.

Invisible Handjob
Apr 7, 2002

by FactsAreUseless
Tsai's approval rating is at 40% and rapidly dropping with just the slightest bit of pressure from China, but the Taiwanese people will definitely follow her off the cliff until they get turned into a parking lot so Judakel can crank out his genocidal fantasy

Shammypants
May 25, 2004

Let me tell you about true luxury.

Why would China bother to invade when they can wave their fingers and cause Taiwan to lose billions overnight?

Judakel
Jul 29, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!

Invisible Handjob posted:

Seems pretty clear to me you will enjoy the glassing of Taiwan more than anything.

Also I like how you think China dropping the bomb on its renegade province it desperately wants to reunite with the motherland, an island full of people bound by culture blood and trade, is the most likely outcome. All right then.

I would enjoy Fojar being proven wrong just because he likes to pretend he knows what he is talking about, much like you. Don't conflate those two posts.

Edit: Also, it is hilarious that you think those reasons matter and will stop china from bombing Taiwan.

Judakel fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Dec 12, 2016

Invisible Handjob
Apr 7, 2002

by FactsAreUseless

Judakel posted:

I would enjoy Fojar being proven wrong just because he likes to pretend he knows what he is talking about, much like you. Don't conflate those two posts.

You never post anything except 'Heh, you're always wrong!' in reply to everything. So I have to assume you're just a moron who couldn't tell the difference between Thailand and Taiwan until you tried to wiggle it into your agenda. I personally happen to like Taiwanese people a lot and have a lot of friends there and find your nuclear holocaust fantasy disgusting is all.

China views Taiwan like its daughter it is having a disagreement with, and America is the older man drunken boyfriend who took her in. The most logical solution to remedy this, of course, is to nuke the daughter.

If the daughter was smart she'd look at what America does to all of its ex-girlfriends when the administration changes and go back home.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Looks like the PRC was right to start increasing their nuclear stockpiles.

Judakel
Jul 29, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!

Invisible Handjob posted:

You never post anything except 'Heh, you're always wrong!' in reply to everything. So I have to assume you're just a moron who couldn't tell the difference between Thailand and Taiwan until you tried to wiggle it into your agenda. I personally happen to like Taiwanese people a lot and have a lot of friends there and find your nuclear holocaust fantasy disgusting is all.

China views Taiwan like its daughter it is having a disagreement with, and America is the older man drunken boyfriend who took her in. The most logical solution to remedy this, of course, is to nuke the daughter.

If the daughter was smart she'd look at what America does to all of its ex-girlfriends when the administration changes and go back home.

"You never post anything except..." No, pretty sure you aren't paying attention to my posting that closely. Anyway, the only moron here is the one implying China will ever move away from the One China policy and tolerate it being used as a bargaining chip. I know, you like the Taiwanese people a lot... That's really relevant to what is a realistic outcome. Try thinking and instead of feeling your way through this topic.

Invisible Handjob
Apr 7, 2002

by FactsAreUseless

Judakel posted:

Edit: Also, it is hilarious that you think those reasons matter and will stop china from bombing Taiwan.

I think it's hilarious you think when push comes to shove Taiwanese people will take up arms against their relatives in China and sacrifice all of their prosperity over Trump's incompetent fumbling. Tsai is going to get thrown out on her rear end before that happens.

Wait, I forgot, Taiwanese aren't real people and have no autonomy and are just there to get glassed according to you.

Judakel
Jul 29, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!

Invisible Handjob posted:

I think it's hilarious you think when push comes to shove Taiwanese people will take up arms against their relatives in China and sacrifice all of their prosperity over Trump's incompetent fumbling. Tsai is going to get thrown out on her rear end before that happens.

Wait, I forgot, Taiwanese aren't real people and have no autonomy and are just there to get glassed according to you.

I didn't say anything about what the Taiwanese public might do. If Trump insists on being an idiot about this subject, it may not even matter. Nice job calling me a racist, though.

Deceitful Penguin
Feb 16, 2011
Holy smokes that got retarded in a hurry. Someone please post 'ArmchairGeneral.jpg' please.

Bip Roberts posted:

They're going to get away with twice as much now as long as they make token gestures to Trumps ego.
As Fojar pointed out, this would require them to back down, which is certainly possible. They might also bribe him, but you gotta ask yourself; can you bribe the president of the United States subtly and well enough that he's not going to just feed his ego instead?

Also lol at the idea that China would glass Taiwan when it's doubtful they'd even engage in sanctions yet. As if nuking them wouldn't make them into a loving international pariah to make the Russian situation look like heaven in comparison and threaten absolutely murder the CCP with discontent.

The theory that it would backfire on the lady president politically is far more likely, but it's a while until the next election, so we'll see how it goes.

CAPS LOCK BROKEN
Feb 1, 2006

by Fluffdaddy
Forjar38's absurd hatred for celestials clouds his judgement imo. He's posts like a cold war-era china watcher without the salary or the prestige

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Peven Stan posted:

Forjar38's absurd hatred for celestials clouds his judgement imo. He's posts like a cold war-era china watcher without the salary or the prestige

Pointing out that people pretty consistently overestimate Chinese power shouldn't be so controversial.

Deceitful Penguin
Feb 16, 2011

Peven Stan posted:

Forjar38's absurd hatred for celestials clouds his judgement imo. He's posts like a cold war-era china watcher without the salary or the prestige
Fojar is flawed in that most of his info comes from flawed sources but at least he consumes them critically, so he's better informed than the majority of the people that post in the Chinathreads.

If you aren't critical of the Chinese government you are a loving moron, plain and simple. They are not good communists and they're not good capitalists and gently caress, they're even incompetent at being totalitarian.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013
lol at the idea of anyone getting glassed for the sake of Donald loving Trump :cripes:

Fojar's not wrong about his one point but sometimes it's just not all that relevant. Not everything that happens in East Asia is about becoming the foremost global power. Honestly it seems like most of his problems are with the Anglophone media.

Deceitful Penguin
Feb 16, 2011
Yes, it's a fairly acknowledged fact that the fact that the two loudest voices when it comes to discourse on China being on one hand the Anglo media and the other the CCP controlled media means there's plenty of distortion when it comes to info about China.

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Judakel
Jul 29, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!

Redmark posted:

lol at the idea of anyone getting glassed for the sake of Donald loving Trump :cripes:

Fojar's not wrong about his one point but sometimes it's just not all that relevant. Not everything that happens in East Asia is about becoming the foremost global power. Honestly it seems like most of his problems are with the Anglophone media.

Some people thought the idea of Trump being elected was goofy too. I doubt they'd use a nuclear bomb, though. They wouldn't have to, really.

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