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man thats gross
Sep 4, 2004

Dr.Mosh posted:

It's really nice to play, very smooth. Got used to it in about 5 minutes. I am used to playing (baritone) 7s and 8s though

Yeah, that thing is mind-blowingly gorgeous. I love the finish, and I can't believe how thin it is!

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DEUCE SLUICE
Feb 6, 2004

I dreamt I was an old dog, stuck in a honeypot. It was horrifying.

Tutu posted:


These amps are so cheap I had to get one to replace my amp. Hand wired tube amp that apparently rivals the cleans of fender champs, plus has 10" speaker. Oh yeah and it only costs 110 pounds...

whoa whoa whoa what's the deal with this thing?

Blaisedell
May 7, 2008

DEUCE SLUICE posted:

whoa whoa whoa what's the deal with this thing?

i thought it was too good to be true too. here's an interview with the guy who designed it
basically they based it on blackface fenders, even doing the same hand wired eyelet thing that those old fenders have. they made it really cheap by having their own factory dedicated solely to amps and from making their own transformers.

everyone who has one says they are pretty great. i was gonna get a silverface fender champ, but bought this in the end because even if it's not that good, it's still soooo cheap it doesn't really matter.

plester1
Jul 9, 2004





Just thought I'd throw this out there: the VHT brand name has been with two different amp companies, both of which make really different amps.

The original VHT was started by Steve Fryette, who made bigass heads like the Pittbull Ultralead, Deliverance, and Sig:X, all popular with heavy metal shredder types.

In 2009, the brand name was given/sold to the Chinese company AXL that makes the current cheapo Fender-style combos. The old VHT is now known as Fryette.

Disclaimer: I am a huge Fryette fanboy, I own a VHT Pittbull Super 30 and a Deliverance 60. I am not a fan of the cheap VHTs. If I were going to get something like that, there's tons of other great options: Epiphone Valve Junior, Blackstar HT-5, Jet City JCA-20, Fender Champ, etc.

edit: It does seem that the VHT Special 6 won a Best In Show award at NAMM, so I guess it can't be all bad.

Agreed
Dec 30, 2003

The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Oh, cool, a link to FG from here that isn't from me :) I write for that site, and my editor, Will Chen, seems to really dig that amp. I trust his opinion on it; we don't always agree on what's the best gear when doing roundups or comparative articles, but he's got a good ear and if he likes it then I imagine it's worthwhile.

That said, I'll stick with my Fender Champ; part of the beauty of it is the smaller speaker, pushed by the full output, pushed harder when you really blast the front-end with a boost, or just reacting in an interesting and pleasing way when you mix in a nice Fuzz Face or the like. The Fender Champ 600 reissue does not need a speaker replacement at all, in my opinion, though of course people are free to do what they will there. I think the lack of headroom is part of the nice sound it gets.

Also, when the amp dude said

quote:

FrugalGuitarist.com revives and redefines the art of guitar journalism with a fresh approach and focused perspective that’s perfectly suited to our times
I have no idea how to feel. Shameless flattery, right, but still kind of neat to hear. I'm not convinced we "revive" or "redefine" anything, we're just trying to have some fun writing about cool stuff, a lot of it under the radar in one way or another. Nice of him to say, all the same.

Edit: Reading more about the amp, I can see why it attracted attention at NAMM. Sounds like a very cool design and an interesting ethic behind it as well. I'll have to call Will and talk to him a bit more about it, maybe I ought to get some company for my Champ 600 after all. It and my THD Univalve are my two main physical amps these days, I'm mostly digital anymore. A smaller combo amp with a cathode-biased output stage would be an interesting addition, and the way the tone control is set up sounds like it would be pretty easy to modify for different tone shaping to customize the amp to be more like a particular sound.

Agreed fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Sep 3, 2010

man thats gross
Sep 4, 2004

man thats gross posted:



Update: This thing is so cool. I picked up the head and I'm playing it through my brother's Epiphone 12" cab (we made a temporary trade so he could use my Traynor to jam with some friends of his). It breaks up beautifully and sounds great played clean. I like that it's switchable from 1/4 watt to 1 watt to 4 watts, so I can control my headroom a little more.

Gonna put it through it's paces over the weekend. We really need a bigger place. I miss having a basement. :(

Gramps
Dec 30, 2006


plester1 posted:

edit: It does seem that the VHT Special 6 won a Best In Show award at NAMM, so I guess it can't be all bad.

I have the special 6 here in my shop, and I have to say- it really does sound fanfuckingtastic. Definitely exceeded my expectations. For a cheap tube amp I really haven't heard better as far as a good, pure tube tone goes. You can even put different power tubes in to get different tones- they just recommend that you power down and let the transformer cool down if you use something like a 6l6 or el34 for more than an hour at a time. Can't recommend it enough.

Agreed
Dec 30, 2003

The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

man thats gross posted:

Update: This thing is so cool. I picked up the head and I'm playing it through my brother's Epiphone 12" cab (we made a temporary trade so he could use my Traynor to jam with some friends of his). It breaks up beautifully and sounds great played clean. I like that it's switchable from 1/4 watt to 1 watt to 4 watts, so I can control my headroom a little more.

Gonna put it through it's paces over the weekend. We really need a bigger place. I miss having a basement. :(

Pretty sure it's also actually an 8W amp that they're using an intentional impedance mismatch with the output tranny to half. If you're interested in details I can try to find the discussion on HC where this was discovered, otherwise, enjoy a nice and affordable stock amp.

man thats gross
Sep 4, 2004

Agreed posted:

Pretty sure it's also actually an 8W amp that they're using an intentional impedance mismatch with the output tranny to half. If you're interested in details I can try to find the discussion on HC where this was discovered, otherwise, enjoy a nice and affordable stock amp.

Yeah, I'd be curious to see that, but don't bother if it's too much trouble.

I was looking at other options like the Blackstar HT-5 or the Blackheart Killer Ant, but wound up getting the Vox simply because the Ant wasn't available locally and was locked in at 0.25, and the Blackstar wasn't available locally and would cost twice as much BEFORE shipping anyway.

For the money I really can't complain. I know it's not the greatest amp in the world, but I'm super rusty right now, and I'm thinking I would benefit a lot more from a $200 amp and $800 worth of guitar lessons than I would from a $1000 amp, sooooo...

Agreed
Dec 30, 2003

The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

man thats gross posted:

Yeah, I'd be curious to see that, but don't bother if it's too much trouble.

Not any trouble at all, just a little searching. Cool Information About The Vox AC4TV Series

man thats gross
Sep 4, 2004

Agreed posted:

Not any trouble at all, just a little searching. Cool Information About The Vox AC4TV Series

Interesting. If I'm understanding correctly it would actually output 8 watts of power if I matched it up to an 8ohm speaker configuration (like two 16 ohm cabs run in parallel, which is handy since the default output is 16 ohms anyway, so it would just be a matter of getting a second cab and running them in parallel), with the only caveat being that I shouldn't use the built-in attenuator when doing so. That actually sounds pretty handy. Thanks!

Edit: Nevermind I'm bad at math. :(

Edit 2: I'm good at math again! The manual says the output on my Traynor is 8 ohms and it has dual outputs, so I could connect it's secondary output to those same 16 ohm cabs run in parallel, which would give me the following options: 40 watts through 2x10, through 2x12, or through 2x10 and 2x12 AT THE SAME TIME with the Traynor; 1/4, 1 or 4 watts through 1x12, or 8 watts through 2x12. Plus I could throw my Weber attenuator on any of the above to further adjust my volume. Pretty much taking me from the bedroom to all but the loudest of jam sessions, with little more than a few cables and a second cab. Hot diggity daffodil!

man thats gross fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Sep 3, 2010

Raze
Aug 13, 2005

I'M GOING HOME.
Speaking of Blackstar...not really sure what thread I should put this in, but:
I've got a Mesa Dual Rec and a 2x12 cab right now, but I'm running it all through a THD Hot Plate because I live in an apartment, and, well...I just don't need all this amp, honestly. I love the sounds I get, but I'm seriously considering selling all of it and buying some sort of low(er)-wattage tube combo like this Blackstar or this Engl that might have the same crunch/growl/etc that I like in the Mesa. Any other suggestions/thoughts? Is 40/50W still pretty drat loud? Should I look more in the 5-20W range?

Zakalwe
May 12, 2002

Wanted For:
  • Terrorism
  • Kidnapping
  • Poor Taste
  • Unlawful Carnal Gopher Knowledge
50 watt i still extremely loud.

FireMrshlBill
Aug 13, 2006

LEMME SHOW YOU SOMETHING!!!

Raze posted:

Speaking of Blackstar...not really sure what thread I should put this in, but:
I've got a Mesa Dual Rec and a 2x12 cab right now, but I'm running it all through a THD Hot Plate because I live in an apartment, and, well...I just don't need all this amp, honestly. I love the sounds I get, but I'm seriously considering selling all of it and buying some sort of low(er)-wattage tube combo like this Blackstar or this Engl that might have the same crunch/growl/etc that I like in the Mesa. Any other suggestions/thoughts? Is 40/50W still pretty drat loud? Should I look more in the 5-20W range?

My epi valve Jr is almost too loud for an apartment at 5 watts... my 50w Single rect is unplayable in the apt. So I wouldn't get rid of a lovely Dual Rectifier for a 40 - 50w amp. unless you get one of the new ones that can be switched from 50w to 100w (my next amp purchase), and then use the hotplate in 50W mode.

I would go with a 5W tube, and you still may end up using the hotplate if you really want to push it.

betterinsodapop
Apr 4, 2004

64:3
Living in an apartment, I don't think you'd ever need anything more than 5 watts. (You probably wouldn't even get to crank that all the way.)

Lovechop
Feb 1, 2005

cheers mate

Zakalwe posted:

50 watt i still extremely loud.

This cannot be stressed enough.

Zakalwe
May 12, 2002

Wanted For:
  • Terrorism
  • Kidnapping
  • Poor Taste
  • Unlawful Carnal Gopher Knowledge

betterinsodapop posted:

Living in an apartment, I don't think you'd ever need anything more than 5 watts. (You probably wouldn't even get to crank that all the way.)


tru.dat

I have never needed or would ever need to crank my Blackstar HT5 in my apartment. I get great tones at a reasonable volume.

Raze
Aug 13, 2005

I'M GOING HOME.

Zakalwe posted:

tru.dat

I have never needed or would ever need to crank my Blackstar HT5 in my apartment. I get great tones at a reasonable volume.

Yeah, I figured as much. The consensus I've seen is that the HT-5 is pretty much the top of the small-watt amp offerings, I think. At least for metal tones. Should I get the combo or just the head (and keep my current 2x12)?

Zakalwe
May 12, 2002

Wanted For:
  • Terrorism
  • Kidnapping
  • Poor Taste
  • Unlawful Carnal Gopher Knowledge
Head most definitely. The combo I played was a bit boxy. The head and the 2x12" I have sound great.

One thing. You'll probably want to invest in a reverb pedal to put in the loop.

Edit: Boss GE7 was another welcome addition to my loop setup.

Col.Kiwi
Dec 28, 2004
And the grave digger puts on the forceps...

betterinsodapop posted:

Living in an apartment, I don't think you'd ever need anything more than 5 watts. (You probably wouldn't even get to crank that all the way.)
Yeah, in an apartment building there's no way you're going to be able to max the volume on a 5W amp. I've messed around with a 5W valve junior driving a 1x12 and a tiny terror in 7W mode driving a 2x12 and they were both pushing into earplug territory when cranked. If you live in a typical apartment building and you try to play into a 5W amp cranked, not only will your neighbours hear it they'll hear it down the hall. 50W vs 100W is a basically undetectable difference in volume, it's just a difference in headroom.

Laserjet 4P
Mar 28, 2005

What does it mean?
Fun Shoe


Now I just have to source some CrO2 tapes.

JumboJetDreams
Jun 3, 2008
Traded my Line 6 Vetta for a Fender Hot Rod Deville.

PoorPeteBest
Oct 13, 2005

We're not hitchhiking anymore! We're riding!
40's Orpheum Dreadnought



You probably can't see it but that crazy tort from the pickguard is in the binding everywhere on this guitar.

Monkey Lincoln
Dec 1, 2001
gumshoe

Yay first bass I've bought for myself!
Found this on Craigslist from a woman cleaning out a barn while selling a house. $40 for the bass, $60 for a 160 watt Peavey Renown amp.


I wish I had thought to take pictures. When I got it all the guts were intact, but not working. Pickups were toast, switches stuck and every bit of metal on it was rusty and corroded. I took it apart and masked the neck before polishing the frets.



So far I've polished all the tuning knobs, bridge , control plate and bridge with a polishing machine. Most of it was some sort of steel or chrome, but the saddles were just nickel plated brass, so they came out gold.




New pickups and knobs coming in the mail, I'll post another pic when it's reassembled. I'll never understand why I can be so excited about something I can hardly use. I'll probably leave the Chuck E CHeese "This machine is broken (Temporarily)" sticker, for now.

the wizards beard
Apr 15, 2007
Reppin

4 LIFE 4 REAL
Not a bad deal at all, some Hondos are great instruments. How did you get the bride so clean? Just polish and elbow grease?

Monkey Lincoln
Dec 1, 2001
gumshoe

The bridge was rough but the knuckles were green from corrosion. I went at them with a sandstick and 320 grit sandpaper, then a jewelers polishing machine and a hunk of polishing compound. I think doing those by hand would have taken all week.

Sarah Cenia
Apr 2, 2008

Laying in the forest, by the water
Underneath these ferns
You'll never find me
I've read that those bridges are actually really nice. I don't have one like that on my Hondo but it seems to be suggested that if you have one, keep it.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib


Just got a PreSonus Firebox recording system. I've needed some way to record audio other than my lovely Logitech webcam mic. Now I get to re-record all of my vocals for everything plus my acoustic play without having to use my modeling processor. Woo!

Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Sep 7, 2010

Manky
Mar 20, 2007


Fun Shoe
Crossposting from the bass megathread, hope that's okay. I found a weird used StingRay knock-off in Guitar Center on Friday, thought about it all weekend, and went back today and bought it. Never heard of the company before, but I like how it plays and sounds.

Pictures!




It's not a StingRay, obviously, but it's close enough. I picked up a nice bass that's pretty close to one tenth the price of a StingRay while being more than one tenth as good. I've also got a thing for well-made knock-offs. I think I prefer how this has four-in-line on the headstock over the 3-1 thing that a real MM does, I always thought it looked kind of stupid.

man thats gross
Sep 4, 2004

Paramemetic posted:



Just got a PreSonus Firebox recording system. I've needed some way to record audio other than my lovely Logitech webcam mic. Now I get to re-record all of my vocals for everything plus my acoustic play without having to use my modeling processor. Woo!

I got this. It's pretty awesome as long as you don't plan on micing a drumkit or a 5-piece band or anything.

Agreed
Dec 30, 2003

The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

I was going to get one of the last-ever production Barber Tone Pump EQs, he's closing them out for a huge clearance savings. I was going to get it for the historical factor as much as anything. After an hour and a half on the phone with him, though, talking about what I was looking for in a dirt pedal that I don't already have (among a lot of other stuff, obviously, can't fill an hour and a half shooting the poo poo about a pedal - David's a great guy, willing to discuss pretty much anything you have any questions about, and he won't BS you), we got into the topic of the recently made, limited-run Barber U-LTD (full name Barber unLimiTeD), a distortion made from the foundations of the Barber LTD-SR. The LTD and LTD-SR are known for their wide frequency response and resulting open and transparent sound, which in non-tone-bullshit-words means your playing dynamics and the sound qualities of the guitar itself (both its construction and its electronics) come through very well without a lot of tone shaping like in a lot of dirt pedals.



The U-LTD is a higher gain version, but with some careful usage of the gain knob, it still has the sounds of the lower gain LTD-SR available, making it a pedal with a lot of range. I was a little on the fence because I wanted the Tone Pump EQ - seriously, it's a great pedal and one of the older boutique original design pedals around, I'm kind of sad to see it go since it's indicative of a shift in the market toward valuing new designs over proven pedals - but then I heard a clip of the U-LTD which sealed the deal. Here's the clip:

A TGP member's demo

Agreed fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Sep 7, 2010

DEUCE SLUICE
Feb 6, 2004

I dreamt I was an old dog, stuck in a honeypot. It was horrifying.

Paramemetic posted:



Just got a PreSonus Firebox recording system. I've needed some way to record audio other than my lovely Logitech webcam mic. Now I get to re-record all of my vocals for everything plus my acoustic play without having to use my modeling processor. Woo!

I was really happy with my Firebox until it exploded. I'm pretty sure that was due to strange power situations downstream of it so I wouldn't expect it to happen to yours.

iostream.h
Mar 14, 2006
I want your happy place to slap you as it flies by.

man thats gross posted:

I got this. It's pretty awesome as long as you don't plan on micing a drumkit or a 5-piece band or anything.

But it daisy-chains with the rack mount modules, which makes it beyond awesome (I use the same system). Make sure your firmware is updated, by the way.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
This is my microphone.



It's an omni ElectroVoice 654. It is affectionately known as the Penis Mic, and is seen here with its headphone balls.











And because, much to my fiancee's chagrin, I can never buy things one at a time and wait, it now has a unidirectional brother.

Schlieren
Jan 7, 2005

LEZZZZZZZZZBIAN CRUSH

Agreed posted:

Here's the clip:

A TGP member's demo

That's not at all an overdrive sound I'd ever use, but I'm glad you are willing to go into some detail - but never too much - with these reviews of pedals; that how it sounds was enough for you to spend a considerable amount of money, and then a bit of time writing this post, and considering your rather wide range of experience to boot... well it makes me realize that I must have some very particular tastes when it comes to stuff like pedals.

Which must be why I own exactly one pedal right now, and almost never, ever use it, nor think to use it.

Agreed
Dec 30, 2003

The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Well, click the ? next to my post for 16 pages of me either talking about buying gear or commenting on others purchases in this thread. I definitely let that particular door do more revolving than is really "musically minded," there's a lot of the thrill of the hunt to it; but, I hang on to more than I let go, so the collection grows. I used to think that was lame, I'm now happier with it. I like having a variety of sounds available. I'm a fan of Barber's designs, I've got three of his pedals already (one the Tone Press compressor) and this one will cover the range of low to medium gain that I lack right now. Talking to him about the pedal helped me contextualize it; the clip is basically how it sounds with a conventional SSH strat, and since I've got a lot of different sorts of guitars and a lot of pedals, and have experienced a lot more than I own now, something about it perked my ears up.

I hope that my posts about this stuff, my reviews elsewhere, my blog, etc. are useful to people, because it's in no small part a collector mentality for me, sort of grabbing these cool sounds before they go away... I've had the good fortune to interact directly with a lot of pedal makers, and David Barber is one consistently innovative designer whose work I respect enormously. I was looking for something kind of like a Tim/Timmy (from Paul Cochrane) with a wide open frequency response, but with more gain on board and a somewhat different voicing. It's sort of serendipitous that he's got this very limited run product out right now for a fair price, comparable to a lot of mass-market pedals, since it seems to be pretty much what I'm looking for right now. My pedal collection is gain-heavy, I don't have the variety in low-to-mid gain/"crunch" that I'd like. This should help fill that gap, though clearly there's some non-creative impetus behind grabbing a box of stuff, in the end.

I'll be posting some clips of it when it gets in, with my more aggressive setup, and I really think it's going to sound great with my stuff. We'll see, I've got a 48-hour trial period where I can ship it back for credit toward a Tone Pump EQ if I decide it's not for me, but the sound in that clip (which, for the most part, is with its gain barely over half and its tone set in a certain way) shows me something about its overall response that I'd quite like to hear in person.

Gear collecting is not something I recommend at all. Most creative musicians have a pretty definite setup that gets their sound and they make songs with it. That's the way to go. A much higher volume of music has been made with Boss, MXR, Ibanez, DOD and other widely available major-brand pedals than has been made by people with tons of stuff. I can get away with some of it because I review professionally and that benefits from broad familiarity and the ability to analyze sounds. Most of the time on the phone today was talking about circuits and how various things affect the sound of a pedal, the perceived versus the real effects of asymmetrical clipping, and how conventional circuit pieces can be put together in unconventional ways to accomplish neat goals. To me, that's a lot of what's interesting, getting under the skin of this stuff in a more enthusiastic and enjoyment-oriented way than, say, deconstructionism at FreeStompBoxes where the basic assumption is that EVERY small builder is a worthless cloner who just tweaks a few parts here and there.

Anyway, this post goes long, but there's more to me grabbing these things now and then than just getting a bunch of poo poo. I have never pumped-and-dumped to make a profit on a pedal. Mostly it's curiosity and enthusiasm, the same basic reasons I got into reviewing in the first place and what keeps me going to the next thing with a cool circuit or a neat idea realized in an at least somewhat novel way.

pennywisdom
Mar 21, 2004

Downsized my Keystation 88es to this and couldn't be happier.

Don Dongington
Sep 27, 2005

#ideasboom
College Slice
New toy arrived today:



It's a Tech 21 Character Series VT Bass. I'd been playing with SVT models in Amplitube Ampeg SVX for a few weeks, and decided I was in love but not enough to drop $2600 AUD on an SVT4 Pro, so I dropped $168 on this instead :)

Also This arrived a couple of weeks ago but I never got round to posting it:



It's the new C5.1t combo interface/control unit from Zoom. It was cheaper than most entry level interfaces and has a few cool features that most of the control/interface combos for Guitar rig/amplitube don't have.

It's a fun toy, I've been having some good times playing with Amplitube, and it's good to be able to jam out with headphones and still work with a decent tone.

It has a 12AX7 in it but it's more of a gimmick than anything else, I generally use the solid state preamp and let the digital tubes in Amplitube handle the tone :P

Schlieren
Jan 7, 2005

LEZZZZZZZZZBIAN CRUSH

Agreed posted:

Well, click the ? next to my post for 16 pages of me either talking about buying gear or commenting on others purchases in this thread. I definitely let that particular door do more revolving than is really "musically minded," there's a lot of the thrill of the hunt to it; but, I hang on to more than I let go, so the collection grows. I used to think that was lame, I'm now happier with it.

From the descriptions I've encountered from instrumentalists with an interest above (what I view as my own) dilettantism, a search for "that tone" is just as much a process as any of life's endeavors, and more about the path than the destination and all that.

So your continued - and continuing - interest in acquisition of tools to help you explore different sounds makes good sense in that context. Luckily you tend to stick with pedals which want to do one thing, or variations of one thing, which on the one hand is a confirmation of a common suspicion of multi-pedals - jacks-of-all-trades, masters-of-none - and on the other hand makes for a much more easily-navigated sea of sound, at least while reading your reviews and observations.

I'm blowing smoke right now but it's nice to know I could probably describe something relatively vague to you and you'd be able to make some fairly well-educated guesses as to in which direction a player ought to be pointed.

I tend to think of most pedals as gimmicks available to maybe one song per album for most instrumentalists, other than high gain pedals and maybe reverb pedals. Of course there are exceptions - The Edge and his constant use of delay, as well as, say, Billy Corgan's use of echo and delay, blah blah - but for the most part, guitarists other than Tom Morello sound infinitely better exploring aspects of a very limited set of sounds, as defined by their guitar choices and amp choices. Hell, even Sonic Youth have a fairly narrowly-defined range of tones from which they choose, and even their guitars, much less anything else about their setup, are hot-rodded to hell.

Point being, having set narratives, even when coming from a perspective one might not share, are very useful when it comes to searching for timbres one might like to employ while songwriting with whatever instrument. Even if the viewpoint is different, it's still immensely useful.

Schlieren fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Sep 8, 2010

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Scarf
Jun 24, 2005

On sight

Ackbarf posted:

New toy arrived today:



It's a Tech 21 Character Series VT Bass. I'd been playing with SVT models in Amplitube Ampeg SVX for a few weeks, and decided I was in love but not enough to drop $2600 AUD on an SVT4 Pro, so I dropped $168 on this instead :)

Just a note: the recommended settings that are printed on the little slip that come with the pedal are absolute garbage. And 12'oclock noon for each knob isn't exactly flat. If you hop over to Talkbass there's tons and tons of threads on the pedal and useful settings. Here's what I use for just a good clean Ampeg tone with a tad bit of breakup when I dig in hard:

Level: Unity
Low: 1'oclock
Mid: 1'oclock
High: 10-11'oclock (this is pretty much flat for the high knob)
Character: 11-1130
Drive: 10-1030

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