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Rand Brittain posted:I think Wyzard and I have already been explicit about the problems that doing it this way causes, namely, lots and lots of people dropping shade under facially-innocuous statements. it’s almost as if you need some sort of system where people apply those rules based on discretion and common sense. you could call these people “moderators”
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Oct 25, 2017 01:31
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Cease to Hope posted:it’s almost as if you need some sort of system where people apply those rules based on discretion and common sense. you could call these people “moderators” We already know Rand isn't suitable to be one though, he was demodded at RPG.net for a personal attack in an infraction notice. Should have tone policed himself better, I guess.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:33
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Follow up: So if you get removed as a mod at RPG.net you should automatically be banned, right? No lenience, the forum rules are iron. So Rand is in the exact same bucket for saying "gently caress you" once as an admitted statutory rapist. 
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Oct 25, 2017 01:37
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Arivia posted:Follow up: So if you get removed as a mod at RPG.net you should automatically be banned, right? No lenience, the forum rules are iron. So Rand is in the exact same bucket for saying "gently caress you" once as an admitted statutory rapist. Now, now let's not be too hasty. McFarland hasn't publicly admitted anything yet.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:39
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Gosh, where to start....Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:But, this is not one situation. This is a pattern of incidents throughout, essentially, western culture going back indefinitely that is starting to come to light and get the attention it deserves. It is going to become extremely necessary very soon for places like RPGNet (and Something Awful for that matter) to have a very clear and specific process for dealing with harassment between users and especially by staff. We absolutely have to assume that other moderators and site admins on various websites are going to be accused of doing horrible things. It is completely appropriate to discuss, in the thread about this industry, how these situations are going to be addressed in the future, and to look at an immediate and current situation as an example. I think it should be taken on a case-by-case basis. Going "Gosh, this sure is sad, but what about the wider implications of one-sided accusations impacting the hapless accused?" Sounds an awful lot like the same old distraction tactic of questioning a victim's legitimacy under the guise of "academic inquiry", which you say you're not doing and don't want to do. I don't get why this hole needs to be plumbed right now. Jimbozig posted:Well how about this forum? If I post "Serf came to my house and killed my dog because of my bad posting," what should the mods here do? Even without adding the emotional stakes of sexual abuse, it's not an easy question. Adding a sexual abuse element to the allegation makes it even more fraught. What is a good policy for this forum, and for forums in general to deal with allegations of off-site misconduct and crime between forum members? I would like it formally and officially known that forum's poster Jimbozig killed my dog. What will the mods do about this heinous act?
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Oct 25, 2017 01:39
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"hillariously incompetent" and not "unprofessional" and while certainly leaning more towards being a personal attack than just a statement of fact, I really want to reiterate my point about tone policing and legitimate frustration here.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:42
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i killed all your dogs
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Oct 25, 2017 01:42
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Serf posted:i killed all your dogs I didn't have a dog, but you killed my not-having-a-dog so I have a dog now. Its name is Pepperoni. I think I kind of like having a dog now. 
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Oct 25, 2017 01:43
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Serf posted:i killed all your dogs You'll never work in this industry again. I, Shannon Applecline, declare it so.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:46
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Rand Brittain posted:The personal attack rule doesn't really care about degree? Holy poo poo are you unable to understand any degree of nuisance in words and phrasing. You understand the very basic concepts of letter of the law and spirit of the law right? Like I don't have to teach you about intent?
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Oct 25, 2017 01:48
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LatwPIAT posted:"hillariously incompetent" and not "unprofessional" and while certainly leaning more towards being a personal attack than just a statement of fact, I really want to reiterate my point about tone policing and legitimate frustration here. This is what I was thinking of, for what it's worth, I didn't go back and actually check the posts though. That one also got a ding.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:49
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RPZip posted:This is what I was thinking of, for what it's worth, I didn't go back and actually check the posts though. That one also got a ding. So is Onyx Path worse at layout than Siembieda and his old wax machine?
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Oct 25, 2017 01:51
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I wish this conversation hadn't devolved into just a bunch of complaining about RPG.net's forums moderation. That's unfortunate.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:51
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Arivia posted:So is Onyx Path worse at layout than Siembieda and his old wax machine? Oh! It's my turn! Let's see- No.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:54
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Leperflesh posted:I wish this conversation hadn't devolved into just a bunch of complaining about RPG.net's forums moderation. That's unfortunate. better than novel-length posts of hand-wringing
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Oct 25, 2017 02:01
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excuse me, is that a personal attack?
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Oct 25, 2017 02:12
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Serf posted:but y'aaaaaaaaaaaall! what if i really did kill jimbozig's dog because of his bad posting? surely that's a thing that could happen and shouldn't be compared to a person actually getting raped as a child, right?? Yeah, I specifically posted something NOT comparable because the idea of posting a comparable thing even in a hypothetical disgusts me. I don't want to post about hypothetical child rapes. This whole thing is sick. I once was tutoring a guy at Ryerson and he was a regular and started getting familiar. Too familiar. Started showing me texts from hot girls or whatever. This guy was hot, so he always had plenty of girls interested. One day he tells me that a 14 year old girl is hitting on him and asks me should he go for it? I told him no - gently caress no - that is a crime and she is a dumb kid and you can just go gently caress one of your other girls how is this even a question - what the gently caress. Do not do it. WHY? What the gently caress is wrong with society that this guy who can have all kinds of girls thinks he has no responsibility to any of them? That he can take advantage of all of them? Regardless of any and all circumstances?
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Oct 25, 2017 02:18
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Arivia posted:Uh excuse me if the forum rules don't work you can sue Lowtax for your first amendment dead baby rights. Can't sue Lowtax. He can't be held accountable for uncurated third-party content on his site. I am not making GBS threads you.
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Oct 25, 2017 02:30
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LF caused the Secret Service to have to interview Lowtax like twice right? and then he also got interviewed about Slenderman
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Oct 25, 2017 02:43
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Jimbozig posted:WHY? What the gently caress is wrong with society that this guy who can have all kinds of girls thinks he has no responsibility to any of them? That he can take advantage of all of them? Regardless of any and all circumstances? I feel like it's because our society elevates people that do that. Economically, socially, or...otherwise.
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Oct 25, 2017 02:43
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LatwPIAT posted:"hillariously incompetent" and not "unprofessional" and while certainly leaning more towards being a personal attack than just a statement of fact, I really want to reiterate my point about tone policing and legitimate frustration here. Once upon a time, RPGnet had a serious problem with people pulling poo poo like "Oh, I'm not saying that being gay is bad, per se, and I definitely don't hate gays, but here's my theological argument that homosexuality is a choice and a sin and gays will burn in the lake of fire for eternity, according to the only correct reading of the Bible." So a series of rules had to be created to deal with that. Somehow, this eventually evolved into a system where calling someone out for arguing in bad faith is a personal attack, and knowing what a corporate HR department does is technically the same as ethnic slurs.
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Oct 25, 2017 02:55
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bewilderment posted:LF caused the Secret Service to have to interview Lowtax like twice right? LF caused the secret service to visit Lowtax once. A fyad poster also got a visit from them once and they made him cry and explain goatse.
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Oct 25, 2017 02:55
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Mostly I miss the stupid comic draft threads. It was stupid nerdy fanficcy poo poo, but it was super fun. And now I’m banned forever.
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Oct 25, 2017 03:01
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MonsieurChoc posted:Mostly I miss the stupid comic draft threads. It was stupid nerdy fanficcy poo poo, but it was super fun. And now I’m banned forever. Try appealing and promise not to do whatever actually got you banned anymore.
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Oct 25, 2017 03:20
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The Wyzard posted:Try appealing and promise not to do whatever actually got you banned anymore. Can't. I freaked out over emails and was told in no uncertain term that any emails I would send would be deleted without being read.
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Oct 25, 2017 03:23
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The Wyzard posted:You are not wrong. F&F is more a forum thread than an article but it is pretty drat diffinitive and why people here are extremely comfortable declaring it a game about celebrating and defending the abuse of children. Beast is so very much a passion project by the man accused of raping a 16 year old that no other designer fully explained WHY the game found it necessary to celebrate and defemd the abuse of children. In fact, I can pull up multiple posts of multiple OP writers establishing that they were not sympatico to the lead writer than has been accused of raping a 16 year old, that they were hoping that future, not-being-written-by-the-guy-accused-of-raping-a-16-year-old books would help expand the game, that they worked on the parts that very explicitly were not about celebrating and defending the abuse of children. Beast is a preeminent example of auteur theory, but is also unfortunately an example of bad art, and this accusation has not altered these outlooks whatsoever. I'm certain you feel very welcomed by the presence of a man accused of raping a 16 year old girl in your community. I can only hope that you are comfortable with what your embrace of a man accused of of raping a 16 year old represents to people who are made not welcome.
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Oct 25, 2017 06:05
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Serf posted:i killed all your dogs I am a dog. I am also immortal. You dweeb, you colossal fuckup.
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Oct 25, 2017 08:37
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Well, sure didn’t take long for people to start using the rape of a teenager as a weapon to try and settle scores with people for other moderation decisions they didn’t like. No siree bob.
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Oct 25, 2017 08:42
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Well, sure didn’t take long for people to start using the rape of a teenager as a weapon to try and settle scores with people for other moderation decisions they didn’t like. No siree bob.
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Oct 25, 2017 10:38
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No, you know what happens? MARXOTEENS
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Oct 25, 2017 11:01
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Lisa Stevens' statement was pretty lacking in any sort of acknowledgement of mistakes, in fact broadly 'yeah, we're the good guys, of course we'd never do any of this, you can trust us' Eric Mona, on the other hand has amazingly admitted that they've been screwing up. It's the first acknowledgement i've seen from anyone from Paizo. https://twitter.com/erikmona/status/923101478083969024
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Oct 25, 2017 11:14
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Arivia posted:No, you know what happens? MARXOTEENS I drink my marxoteen every morning to keep my bones as strong as my conviction to seize the means of production
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Oct 25, 2017 12:21
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I'm not sure whether i'm more surprised that Beast being designed by a sex criminal makes it immune to criticism or that my being left of Clinton makes me a Marxist teenager. This has been an educational thread.
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Oct 25, 2017 12:41
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Serf posted:love to debate the rules of another forum on this forum. That's because you can't do it on RPG.net without getting moderated.
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Oct 25, 2017 14:16
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Serf posted:i killed all your dogs
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Oct 25, 2017 14:25
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Point: If, legally speaking, it's in the guy's best interest for him not to post at all... ...Then why not go through the act of performative justice and ban him? First, you come out ahead of the situation. Always a plus. Second, you put a stop to people coming out of the woodwork saying 'I've been banned for less'. People will stop questioning your moderation logic, because right now they've got a drat good reason to question it. Third, and I can't emphasize this enough, you stop looking sympathetic towards alleged child rapists. The facts of sexual assault and rape do not justify caution/inaction - false accusation rates are anywhere from 2 -10 percent, with the real rate likely being closer to 2 percent because some studies had very generous definitions of 'false'. This kind of equivocating logic is usually employed by people who don't want to confront skeletons in closets. I can understand why - it can be very difficult to accept that a colleague or a friend is capable of monstrous acts. It is much easier, and much more convenient, to sweep it all under the rug and pretend like nothing's happened. Besides, he must be going through a lot right now because he has to deal with this accusation, right? Provided that the accusation is true (extremely likely), whatever he's dealing with right now doesn't hold a goddamn candle to the poo poo the person he raped when they were a child did, does, and will continue to go through for the rest of their life. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 14:57
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I know I'm just a nobody and who cares about my opinion, but I'd seriously advise banning McFarland. I don't understand why you wouldn't. Not only is it damaging to a major part of RPG.net's mission goal, but its going to hang like a toxic fog over the site, constantly being an elephant in the room and undermining everything. Sure, there's a possibility he has been falsely accused. I get it, he's your buddy and he's not like that and blah blah blah. Get over that. It's slim and extremely unlikely, especially since he willingly stepped down from his moderator position, but it exists. If that's creating reluctance, guess what? It's access to a forum, not a jail sentence. It's not a right, it's barely a punishment and he can always be unbanned. Other scumbags have been banned for this kind of thing before. For example, Duck Call Lass was revealed as a harasser and got turfed from the community despite being an RPG creator. In light of that I have to question why not McFarland? Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 15:18
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Lightning Lord posted:Other scumbags have been banned for this kind of thing before. For example, Duck Call Lass was revealed as a harasser and got turfed from the community despite being an RPG creator. In light of that I have to question why not McFarland? It was a long drat time before Duck Call Lass -- formerly Kynn, which is how she was known in other online circles -- was finally banned from rpg.net, and it only happened when her aggressive "you are not progressive enough for my exacting liking so I will use that to attack you" antics finally got to be too much to bear. Her history as a rapist was well known in said other online circles (I was there) before she popped up on rpg.net -- which looked to be, from my point of view, blatant looking for greener pastures after explosions elsewhere -- and involved circling the wagons, and any attempt to point out this on rpg.net was squashed and squashed harshly because ... look, a bunny! So, yeah, there's a certain continuing trend to be found there, it seems.
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Oct 25, 2017 16:03
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LuiCypher posted:Third, and I can't emphasize this enough, you stop looking sympathetic towards alleged child rapists.  I'd add that taking punitive action against people for revisiting (extremely valid) criticism of Beast in light of current events makes moderators look downright supportive of him. Not only is he left uncensured, but you're punishing people for discussing the problems of his victimization based fantasy game? It absolutely looks like your taking a side, and not the right one.
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Oct 25, 2017 16:36
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And trying to defend those bannings by saying that books are collaborative works, and therefore any criticism of them is a group attack, is a ludicrously weak defense. You might as well ban all discussion of music and movies as well, and any product that was not produced, edited, and published by a single individual.
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Oct 25, 2017 16:44
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