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Cugel the Clever posted:Article decent, except...
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Jan 28, 2023 19:13
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exciting to see the big protests over there recently 🥹
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Jan 28, 2023 19:20
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precious
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PT6A posted:It occurs to me that the Israeli right wing has done a really great job of defining, in popular consciousness outside Israel, the meanings of terms like "Zionism" and "anti-Semitism" and such, so much so that even those who are naturally suspicious of the Israeli right-wing fall into the trap of accepting elements of their worldview. It's practically Orwellian in that they've solidified their conception of these terms so thoroughly, and often narrowly, that it's difficult to even have this discussion without unpacking huge amounts of their bullshit. I dunno I think it's hard to unpack Zionism and Antisemitism because a lot of Jews lost people in the holocaust or were otherwise victimized. I've had a lot of discussions with my jewish father about palestine and he's very thoroughly a zionist but not very right wing. I think that's because he's the son of a holocaust refugee. Lord Lambeth fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 09:29
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PT6A posted:It occurs to me that the Israeli right wing has done a really great job of defining, in popular consciousness outside Israel, the meanings of terms like "Zionism" and "anti-Semitism" and such, so much so that even those who are naturally suspicious of the Israeli right-wing fall into the trap of accepting elements of their worldview. It's practically Orwellian in that they've solidified their conception of these terms so thoroughly, and often narrowly, that it's difficult to even have this discussion without unpacking huge amounts of their bullshit. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 19:42
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used to be plenty of supposedly enlighted socialist zionist groups, funny how they all just fell in with the xenophobic right-wing. we didn't even get a mass performative mob shrug, they just ghosted us.
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Jan 29, 2023 20:30
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Lord Lambeth posted:I dunno I think it's hard to unpack Zionism and Antisemitism because a lot of Jews lost people in the holocaust or were otherwise victimized. I've had a lot of discussions with my jewish father about palestine and he's very thoroughly a zionist but not very right wing. I think that's because he's the son of a holocaust refugee. The discourse and education (at least in in the US) around colonialism and harm it's done to the communities that were colonized I feel is something that only fairly recently has become mainstream in leftist spaces. This is the only lens that I've really seen this processed in a way that allows for the rejection of this form of Zionism while acknowledging the atrocities of the Shoah. jiffypop45 fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 22:51
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The main issue I have with colonialism rhetoric at the moment is that historically Jewish people haven't had a homeland for a very long time and for a very long time they were seen as the "outsider" in whichever country they were in. When a group in exiled and nearly annihilated to the brink of extinction in numerous countries it feels wrong (to me) to accuse them of colonialism.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:06
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Madkal posted:The main issue I have with colonialism rhetoric at the moment is that historically Jewish people haven't had a homeland for a very long time and for a very long time they were seen as the "outsider" in whichever country they were in. When a group in exiled and nearly annihilated to the brink of extinction in numerous countries it feels wrong (to me) to accuse them of colonialism. that just sounds like two wrongs making a right
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Jan 29, 2023 23:08
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Madkal posted:The main issue I have with colonialism rhetoric at the moment is that historically Jewish people haven't had a homeland for a very long time and for a very long time they were seen as the "outsider" in whichever country they were in. When a group in exiled and nearly annihilated to the brink of extinction in numerous countries it feels wrong (to me) to accuse them of colonialism. I feel like if you read this aloud to yourself you'd realize how stupid it sounds. Do you really think a history of persecution immunizes a group from blame for their own crimes of persecution? I assure you that when a family has their home stolen from them it causes just as much pain no matter the perpetrator and likewise the guilt accrues just the same.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:30
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as a proud former Zionist I'll gladly accept that the whole notion never made sense in the first place, though I'm willing to pardon the original founders of the movement more than 120 years ago who never got to see it fail in practice. the people who actually got to watch the original dream of peaceful coexistence materialize as an apartheid state and the generations of hypocritical apologists, they are all guilty.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:30
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jiffypop45 posted:The discourse and education (at least in in the US) around colonialism and harm it's done to the communities that were colonized I feel is something that only fairly recently has become mainstream in leftist space. This is the only lens that I've really seen this processed in a way that allows for the rejection of this form of Zionism while acknowledging the atrocities of the Shoah. Yeah it's weird balance to thread. My grandfather lived through Kristallnacht, 3 million people very much like him were exterminated. Not to mention years of racist pogroms that his ancestors most likely lived through. Not to excuse any abuses of the state of israel, of course.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:35
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By popular demand posted:as a proud former Zionist I'll gladly accept that the whole notion never made sense in the first place, though I'm willing to pardon the original founders of the movement more than 120 years ago who never got to see it fail in practice. This is kind of where I fall on the equation too. What I was trying to say with my previous post is that it isn't all black and white. If you are willing to accept that any Jewish person living in Israel is a colonizer and colonization is bad you are also willing to ignore all historical context as well. There were people moving to Palestine to escape pogroms, persecution and death. The origins of Zionism was a place where Jews can live freely away from the rule of a government/king/tzar/whatever who decided Jews make for a great scapegoats. Zionism has morphed into a terrible racist shitshow but I'm not gonna blame any Jewish person from the 1800s until 1940s for being a Zionist.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:49
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It's an 'everyone is racist' kind of conundrum: I and everyone in my family had benefited from the institutions of the apartheid state, it should fall to us to acknowledge this and help turn things around. do I believe that my grandparents could have done things better? probably not, they did their best and never got into politics. could my parents' generation have done more? they should have been more skeptical of the state rhetoric at the least. what about my generation? we were born after Israel was finally done defending its place in an existential sense, and we were promised a peace process. the next generation to reach maturity was born after no one believed anything anymore, Bibi is king and politics is just as filthy as anywhere. maybe the next generation will actually be willing to ask why, was any of this horror ever justified. I might not really making a point here, sorry. it's exceedingly hard to see a way out this horrorshow.
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Jan 30, 2023 00:07
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Madkal posted:The main issue I have with colonialism rhetoric at the moment is that historically Jewish people haven't had a homeland for a very long time and for a very long time they were seen as the "outsider" in whichever country they were in. When a group in exiled and nearly annihilated to the brink of extinction in numerous countries it feels wrong (to me) to accuse them of colonialism. Colonialism isn't "rhetoric" or an "accusation", it's a set of actions. And it's unquestionably what they did. They migrated to another land, seized control of it from the natives, and then ruled over the land while bringing in more settlers and marginalizing, exploiting, and displacing said natives. You're basically just arguing that this particular act of colonialism was justified, so we shouldn't regard it with the negative connotations usually associated with the term "colonialism". The problem is that your justification is based in nationalist mythmaking that doesn't really hold up to examination. After all, plenty of groups which had their own homelands still ended up being treated like outsiders, facing exile or near-annihilation, with any survivors facing relentless cultural genocide that sought to erase their very identity. Having a homeland clearly isn't much of a protection. And even in the European "homelands", nationalistic ambitions led to all sorts of minority groups being subjected to heavy discrimination and forced assimilation which sought to wipe out their separate cultural identities.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:08
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Something worth noting is that Jews and Palestinians share both Genetic and Cultural relation, which makes "Jews were without a homeland and were mistreated, so we should be softer towards categorizing the project to assert one" all the more awkward because Israel in-of itself has deprived innumerable descendants of Jews of a homeland and of human dignity; Which descendants of Israelites should Palestinians in turn displace to create their own homeland? I certainly understand the desire for lenience, Jews absolutely have had a tragic history of mistreatment and ostracization, but the society that Israel tolerates & cultivates (and whos most hardline warriors now control the Knesset with barely the guise of self-defense & survival) simply passes that experience onto a different group of Israelites. It should absolutely be regarded with scrutiny and see reform at-the-least, if not upheaval. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 01:42
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Madkal posted:The main issue I have with colonialism rhetoric at the moment is that historically Jewish people haven't had a homeland for a very long time and for a very long time they were seen as the "outsider" in whichever country they were in. When a group in exiled and nearly annihilated to the brink of extinction in numerous countries it feels wrong (to me) to accuse them of colonialism. Plenty of colonizing groups were persecuted. Pilgrims are probably the most famous example but far from the only ones.
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Jan 30, 2023 08:28
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I think it's actually fair to say that Zionism is an ideology with deep anti-semitic roots, it might sound like a troll opinion but it's not really, the roots of zionism are deeply linked to the romantic-era european attempt at 'finding a solution' to the 'jewish question', like this was a legit intellectual pursuit in the 19th century and it occupied both jewish and christian scholars. Herzl even wrote that Zionism will make fast friends with european anti-semites as both pursue the same goal, it's like, anti-semitism was considered a legitimate stance back then and Zionism is in a sense a jewish answer to the jewish question. I dunno what was the topic of discussion, it's just something I think about on occasion. e; and a little known fact is that christian zionism predates jewish zionism, messianic christians thought it would be a good idea to ship jews back to the holy land a few decades before Herzl picked up on the idea. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 08:51
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Main Paineframe posted:Colonialism isn't "rhetoric" or an "accusation", it's a set of actions. And it's unquestionably what they did. They migrated to another land, seized control of it from the natives, and then ruled over the land while bringing in more settlers and marginalizing, exploiting, and displacing said natives. Part of the reason Russian-descended Jews are relatively right wing is decades of inoculation with the same rhetoric long before it became mainstream in the West. To be perfectly fair (and balanced) the USSR was at least more honest about what it meant and what it wanted to happen.
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Jan 30, 2023 16:37
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I'm Jewish enough to have gone into the gas chambers and like most Jewish people, lost a lot of family in the Holocaust. The survivors from my family are all spread out all across the globe, including Israel. I know this is just your usual schtick, but I'll say it, just incase someone is coming into this thread for the first time trying to learn about I/P: Israel is colonialist project that shouldn't have ever existed. Israel doesn't have right to exist. No country has "a right to exist." Israel has committed and is committing genocide. Israel is an apartheid state.
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Jan 30, 2023 17:20
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Like, if the ideology you pedal propaganda for requires you to leave out Upton Sinclair in favor of Alan Dershowitz, I think it's probably time to reevaluate.
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Jan 30, 2023 17:23
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Internet Explorer posted:I'm Jewish enough to have gone into the gas chambers and like most Jewish people, lost a lot of family in the Holocaust. The survivors from my family are all spread out all across the globe, including Israel. So if someone is coming to the thread to try learning about I/P they should know your opinions are all they should know? It seems like there is room for some interesting discussion in this thread and there are also people saying "this is the only right and that is all you must know so don't question".
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Jan 30, 2023 17:33
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are you prepared to refute those statements or are you "just asking questions"?
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Jan 30, 2023 17:45
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Internet Explorer posted:
For sure. "No country has a right to exist" is a meaningful sentiment, and if you were pressured into making something resembling coherent point, you'd fall back to "the Palestinians can't threaten Israel's existence". Because it's an Israel\Palestinian conflict about Palestinian victimhood, not an Arab-Israeli conflict about Israel's existence.
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Jan 30, 2023 17:49
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Xander77 posted:Pretend I posted a giant rolleyes emoji just vomiting further rolleyes. Oh, don't worry, the feeling is mutual. The amount of bullshit you spew in this thread is legendary. Madkal posted:So if someone is coming to the thread to try learning about I/P they should know your opinions are all they should know? There's plenty of words written on the topic in the thread. I'm sure they can read them. In the meantime, I'm happy to provide a counterexample to "only good Jews support Zionism" or "the far-left uses Zionism as anti-Semitism" or any other nonsense that is being spouted.
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Jan 30, 2023 17:49
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Madkal posted:Zionism has morphed into a terrible racist shitshow but I'm not gonna blame any Jewish person from the 1800s until 1940s for being a Zionist. I mean I will, at least the Anglo-American ones. A big leg of Zionism back in the 19th century was this idea that Jews could never belong or be accepted in a mainstream Christian society, which strikes me as an almost anti-semitic idea in and of itself. While I have the historical hindsight advantage of seeing how completely normalized Jewish populations are in the USA, UK, and Canada (and I assume most of Europe now), there were plenty of Jewish people at the time pointing this out as well. The concept that "we have been repeatedly brutalized by awful regimes before, so we need to go start our own ethnostate where we can be the brutalizers" is not a great one. e; f;b this is probably a better post about it but yeah, as unbelievably cruel to Jews as European society was, Zionism is a pretty lovely answer to the desire to not be victimized by the state from time to time. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 18:08
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:The concept that "we have been repeatedly brutalized by awful regimes before, so we need to go start our own ethnostate where we can be the brutalizers" is not a great one. This is overly simplistic. Most folk were imagining self-determination, not "we get to be the brutalizers". Lots of early Zionists assumed they were building a fair and just society. They were wrong of course, but I don't think its fair to characterize it as (then at least) people wishing they got to take the place of their Christian overlords. also mainstream christian society loving sucks rear end, i dont think you can blame them for thinking they'd never be accepted. Nebalebadingdong fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 18:15
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The linking of Zionism to being actually anti semitism is interesting. The idea that it would be better for Jews to stay in places where pogroms and anti semitism were prelevent because trying to escape might be giving the anti semites what they wanted seems like a bit of a privilege position. It's true that the Nazis were first interested in expulsion but we know how quickly that changed. Early Zionism wasn't interested in bulldozing and oppression, it was more interested in creating a place where Jews wouldn't face death and destruction on a daily basis. Like I said it is sad that it has morphed into what it has but I still hold that the roots of the movement, just like any movement for self determination, was from a place of looking for an escape. If you look at the history of Jewish people in eastern Europe it's not hard to understand why many wanted to leave.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:22
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PittTheElder posted:I mean I will, at least the Anglo-American ones. A big leg of Zionism back in the 19th century was this idea that Jews could never belong or be accepted in a mainstream Christian society, which strikes me as an almost anti-semitic idea in and of itself. While I have the historical hindsight advantage of seeing how completely normalized Jewish populations are in the USA, UK, and Canada (and I assume most of Europe now), there were plenty of Jewish people at the time pointing this out as well. But at least I can get the reasoning there. No idea what's the reasoning behind "Zionism was def a very bad idea, and I have absolutely no notion of anything that might have happened in Europe that would prove otherwise" followed by off-key whistling.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:22
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Zionism was basically the most intuitive possible solution to the problem of Jewish subjugation throughout Christian Europe (and, at generally lesser severity, throughout Muslim North Africa/West Asia). Life in a subjugated ethnoreligious caste is terrible, and the options on the table were: 1. Totally abandon our ethnoreligious identities and traditions and beg for assimilation. Might work over the course of several generations at the cost of the entire Jewish way of life, but there's profit to be made from the existence of a subjugated ethnoreligious caste so it probably won't ever really succeed 2. Establish a state where Jews are not a subjugated ethnoreligious caste. 3. Hope that throughout the 20th century, by the power of capitalism/communism, Jews cease to be a subjugated ethnoreligious caste. Eventually this kinda worked out, somewhat along the lines of #1 but not as severe. You didn't have to be a weirdo or self-hating Jew to think that #2 is the best option on that table by far. It wasn't worth doing the Nakba or setting up an apartheid state, but "I would like a country where I won't be progromed" isn't a Kapo idea. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 18:36
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Madkal posted:The linking of Zionism to being actually anti semitism is interesting. The idea that it would be better for Jews to stay in places where pogroms and anti semitism were prelevent because trying to escape might be giving the anti semites what they wanted seems like a bit of a privilege position. It's true that the Nazis were first interested in expulsion but we know how quickly that changed. I personally don't fault Jewish people for being in favor of Zionism, especially back before Israel was created. Ethnostates were all the rage, the Jewish people certainly had reason for wanting to protect themselves in this fashion, and I have no doubt that many, many Zionists were convinced that a Jewish homeland could be created without doing bad. Hell, I'm even willing to give the benefit of the doubt to most Jewish Zionists today. Propaganda is a hell of a thing. That being said, and I'm not sure how far back we are going here with "early Zionism," there were plenty of people, Jewish people even, who rightfully saw what was about to happen. Even before the Nakba, which happened at the start of the Israeli state, you had instances like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#Characterization_as_colonialism,_ethnic_cleansing,_or_racist quote:However, some critics of Zionism consider it a colonialist[23] or racist[24] movement. According to historian Avi Shlaim, throughout its history up to present day, Zionism "is replete with manifestations of deep hostility and contempt towards the indigenous population." Shlaim balances this by pointing out that there have always been individuals within the Zionist movement that have criticized such attitudes. He cites the example of Ahad Ha'am, who after visiting Palestine in 1891, published a series of articles criticizing the aggressive behaviour and political ethnocentrism of Zionist settlers. Ha'am reportedly wrote that the Yishuv "behave towards the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly upon their boundaries, beat them shamefully without reason and even brag about it, and nobody stands to check this contemptible and dangerous tendency" and that they believed that "the only language that the Arabs understand is that of force." There's nothing here out of the ordinary for that time period. Colonialism was seen as an enlightened cause all around the world. To then say things like "early Zionism wasn't interested in bulldozing and oppression" doesn't add up. People saying Zionism isn't colonialism doesn't add up. The people doing the real work back then knew what they were doing and that's not unique to Israel. Internet Explorer fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 18:44
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Israel is colonialist project that shouldn't have ever existed, though. "An ethnostate, but for us this time" is one thing, but "built on top of another existing population" was categorically never the answer. Nebalebadingdong posted:This is overly simplistic. Most folk were imagining self-determination, not "we get to be the brutalizers". Lots of early Zionists assumed they were building a fair and just society. They were wrong of course, but I don't think its fair to characterize it as (then at least) people wishing they got to take the place of their Christian overlords. I'm sure there were a variety of interests at play and a lot of early settlers were fleeing persecution or oppression, and it's a lot harder to fault the individuals, but the project was to build an ethnostate and that was never going to become a fair or just society.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:44
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Did these 19th century Zionists imagine the Jewish State being built somewhere other than Palestine? Because I don't see how going to someone else's home and saying ok we want to make this a state for us now is self-determination, kinda sounds like conquest
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Jan 30, 2023 18:52
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VitalSigns posted:Did these 19th century Zionists imagine the Jewish State being built somewhere other than Palestine? They saw it as joining their fellows who already lived there. Even Einstein wrote a (sadly naive) paper about building a collaborative state with the existing non-Jewish population
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Jan 30, 2023 19:01
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VitalSigns posted:Did these 19th century Zionists imagine the Jewish State being built somewhere other than Palestine? ... The Zionist project had designs on land ruled by an empire, to which Palestine was not particularly important. A series of bargains, implorations, international pressure and "facts on the ground", vis-a-visa the Turks promoted a limited autonomy that would (perhaps) eventually grow into a proper nation. The Zionist movement started several decades before the Arab nationalist movements gained ground and way before the notion of Palestinians as a separate ethnic group from the Syrians or the Jordanians. If you want an accurate-ish simile, it would be fighting with your roommate about who gets the apartment after the landlord drops dead. Or dividing a communal apartment after privatization. You can make arguments about how the Zionists thought they would or wouldn't get along with the local Arab population, but there was no question of competing with Palestinian nationalists for this portion of land - that wasn't a thing yet. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 19:02
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Israel is colonialist project that shouldn't have ever existed, though. Theodor Herzl actually wrote a novel about Zionism as he'd like to see it done - "The Old New Land", and there are two key points here: 1. In Herzl's imagination, Palestine really is "a land without a people," a blank canvas with only a few Arabs hopping around who welcome the Jews, because there's more than enough land for anyone and it just needs industrial capital and labor. 2. In Herzl's imagination, in the new state in Palestine, religion doesn't have a legal status, it's basically a regular liberal democracy in which plenty of people happen to be Jewish. He actually ends the book with a politician-rabbi demanding that the state grant citizenship to Jews exclusively; both Herzl and Herzl's fictional voters reject this guy as a anachronistic nutcase. I bring up this book to say that many early Zionists did not want or imagine an ethnostate or apartheid state, they figured that an idealized liberal democracy would be sufficient to prevent antisemitic abuses because Jews would make up either the majority or the plurality of voters. But when the Israel project had to confront the reality of 1.5-2 million Palestinians in the area, they had to decide between becoming a vulnerable ethnoreligious minority in Palestine (the same situation they were trying to escape) or reducing the number of Palestinians in the area and politically subjugating the rest (the Nakba and the eventual establishment of an apartheid state). VitalSigns posted:Did these 19th century Zionists imagine the Jewish State being built somewhere other than Palestine? There were both first-order concerns ("Eretz Yisroel is the cultural and religious home of the Jewish people, we need it") and second-order concerns ("It will be easier for us to rhetorically promote and defend the project if we do it in a place where Jews are already seen as natural residents.") VitalSigns posted:Because I don't see how going to someone else's home and saying ok we want to make this a state for us now is self-determination, kinda sounds like conquest Why are self-determination and conquest mutually exclusive here? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 19:04
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Oh, no one told me they didn't have a flag, nvm e: Civilized Fishbot posted:Theodor Herzl actually wrote a novel about Zionism as he'd like to see it done - "The Old New Land", and there are two key points here: I do appreciate the historical context and understand that Herzl and others were idealists, but the project since its inception required that 2 million Palestinians not be a majority, and that was never going to come about humanely. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 19:05
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Xander77 posted:Right. The first crime of the Zionists was destroying the nation of Palestine to build their own. Did I say "nation-state" I think I said "home" You know that Eddie Izzard bit about no flag no country was a joke right
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Jan 30, 2023 19:13
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VitalSigns posted:Did I say "nation-state" I think I said "home"
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Jan 30, 2023 19:17
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A land "ruled by an empire" still had people indigenous to the area living in it, how is that an argument?
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Jan 30, 2023 19:19
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Comparing governments to private landlords and indigenous people and ethnic groups to tenants seems...fraught, it's a bad analogy that is gonna lead you to some bad places eg Expelling ethnic groups from a state is ok because landlords get to terminate a lease right
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Jan 30, 2023 19:29
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