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Cubey posted:I wasn't aware that the most protested war of all time was considered popular. Huh.  It was very popular around the time Clinton voted for it. That's obviously not a justification of the vote (it's one of the reasons I did not vote for her back in 2008), but as others are saying, you're a bit off base.
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May 4, 2015 23:31
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Cubey posted:Yeah thank god Hillary voted against the Iraq War If the question is "Who's more likely to start the next big, stupid war?" and your options are someone who voted for the last war and someone from the family that were the architects behind the whole thing, Hillary's still the safer bet. Not the best bet, no, but part of what cost Hillary the nomination in 2008 was her support for the Iraq War set against Obama's criticism of it, so at least there's a chance she'll have learned while a Bush victory is basically a guarantee of a fresh invasion somewhere. I'm sure in 2000 people argued that Gore was no better than Bush but you couldn't possibly think a Gore administration would have started the Iraq War quagmire.
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May 4, 2015 23:34
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B B posted:
I just remember the massive protests and the fact that I knew zero people who were in favor of the war. Either way I have no respect for any member of congress that voted for it. As for Hillary, she represents everything wrong with the modern Democratic party. I won't vote for her in the general election because I am loving sick of voting for Democrats who are only barely better than Republicans. I'd rather vote Republican in the hopes that the Dems lose the election and fall the hell apart and maybe reform as a party that actually follows an ideology that isn't center-right (even though the last time they fell apart they came back as the shitshow party we have now). Continuing to vote for Democrats that maintain the awful status quo of that awful party accomplishes less than nothing.
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May 4, 2015 23:37
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One of the biggest cultural chasms there'll ever be between the US and Europe is the reasoning for getting into Iraq. I can't begin to imagine the mood in the US after 9/11, and it doesn't help that papers like NYT did its darndest to legitimize the case.
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May 4, 2015 23:45
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I don't want to shock you, but if the Dems lose then Very Serious People will take that as a vindication of conservative policies. And then Republicans will control the Senate, House, and Presidency for at least two years, which is enough time to inflict astronomical amounts of suffering. The whole reason the lesser evil is preferable is because the alternative is much, much worse.
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May 4, 2015 23:46
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Trump is pissing off A LOT of conservatives quote:Trump repeatedly called the shooting “terrible” and “disgusting,” but said of Pamela Geller, “It looked like she’s just taunting everybody. What is she doing drawing Mohammed?… Isn’t there something else they can draw?”
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May 4, 2015 23:47
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Additionally, that suffering is already happening in places like Kansas and Louisiana, without any glorious socialist revolution on the horizon.
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May 4, 2015 23:47
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:Additionally, that suffering is already happening in places like Kansas and Louisiana, without any glorious socialist revolution on the horizon. Yeah. I never understand why accerationsts don't look at, like, Louisiana and understand accelerationism has been tried and what it gets you is horrible.
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May 4, 2015 23:49
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Morrow posted:I don't want to shock you, but if the Dems lose then Very Serious People will take that as a vindication of conservative policies. And then Republicans will control the Senate, House, and Presidency for at least two years, which is enough time to inflict astronomical amounts of suffering. And if that is what it takes for the Democrats to grow a loving spine and move to the left, then that's what needs to happen. The longer we continue to accept the lesser of two evils, the less the likelihood of a single goddamn thing changing. Jerry Manderbilt posted:Additionally, that suffering is already happening in places like Kansas and Louisiana, without any glorious socialist revolution on the horizon. Sometimes things need to get worse, even much worse, before they get better. If we end up with a Republican-controlled congress under a Republican president, I absolutely would believe that we'd end up like Kansas, and I feel that would better motivate people to demand a real change from this shitshow. Although with that being said, I really do not believe a Republican can win the election in 2016 anyway.
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May 4, 2015 23:52
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Obdicut posted:Yeah. I never understand why accerationsts don't look at, like, Louisiana and understand accelerationism has been tried and what it gets you is horrible. "Sure, my hometown's school closed and I have to drive my kids 40 miles over to the next town to send them to school, but at least the Democrat party isn't in charge!" "My beloved NCAA football team's home institution is facing horrendous cuts, but at least Bobby Jindal isn't a socialist!" Cubey posted:Sometimes things need to get worse, even much worse, before they get better. If we end up with a Republican-controlled congress under a Republican president, I absolutely would believe that we'd end up like Kansas, and I feel that would better motivate people to demand a real change from this shitshow. Although with that being said, I really do not believe a Republican can win the election in 2016 anyway. Okay so why was it not the case that Kansans were motivated to "demand a real change from this shitshow"? In fact, they had a chance to boot out Brownback last year, and he still squeaked back in.
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May 4, 2015 23:52
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It's not like it works on the other side of the fence. The Republicans are always claiming the reason they started losing Presidential elections is because they're not nominating a true conservative and there's this invisible horde of right-wing voters staying home as a result, and it doesn't help them at all. On the state level, sure, you can maybe manage something more ideologically pure - it's also why the odd Senator or Representative can be an ideological firebrand, since they don't have to appeal nation-wide. At the highest level you're not voting for what you want, it's a compromise toward the least bad viable option. The chance that Iraq gets reoccupied or Iran gets invaded goes up an order of magnitude under a Bush compared to under a Clinton, and there's nothing the rest of the world can do about that except shout at Americans to hold their noses and do us a solid for gently caress's sake. Accelerationism is insane to me. You know who went through accelerationism? Russia, when the Soviet Union collapsed, and they turned into a neoliberal faux-democratic hellscape. Not a great example. Dolash fucked around with this message at 23:57 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 23:54
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Cubey posted:
Then why the gently caress hasn't this happened in Kansas? Why has the opposite happened: The GOP has become more entrenched? Part of what's so fatuously stupid about you accelerationism is that you can always claim your theory is right, it's just that stuff isn't bad enough. It's not a testable theory, it's a petulant expression of emotion.
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May 4, 2015 23:55
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Anecdotally, out of all of my college room mates and class mates that I discussed it with, I was the only person who opposed the Iraq War from the build up. It was extremely frustrating because it was a lot of "we have to attack them before they attack us" lines. Hipster voice: I was against the Iraq War before everyone else started being against it.
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May 4, 2015 23:56
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:Okay so why was it not the case that Kansans were motivated to "demand a real change from this shitshow"? In fact, they had a chance to boot out Brownback last year, and he still squeaked back in. Because a majority of the population presumably buys the bullshit that scumbag is selling them, else they would not have re-elected him. Obdicut posted:Then why the gently caress hasn't this happened in Kansas? Why has the opposite happened: The GOP has become more entrenched? The entire country is not one state. And if one party controls the White House and the Senate and things go to poo poo, it would make it pretty obvious where the blame lies.
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May 4, 2015 23:57
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Cubey posted:Because a majority of the population presumably buys the bullshit that scumbag is selling them, else they would not have re-elected him. So, accelerationism failed in Kansas, therefore let's try it on the national level. Cubey posted:
This isn't an answer. They can continue to blame old Democratic-caused problems, continue to whip up blaming blacks and immigrants. This is hardly novel territory. Again, there are states where things are poo poo, where things are demonstrably poo poo, seriously like completely 2nd class when compared to other states, like not at the same development level, and they are completely locked down by the GOP. Where has accelerationism worked? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 00:01 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 23:58
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Dolash posted:The chance that Iraq gets reoccupied or Iran gets invaded goes up an order of magnitude under a Bush compared to under a Clinton, and there's nothing the rest of the world can do about that except shout at Americans to hold their noses and do us a solid for gently caress's sake. Cubey posted:Because a majority of the population presumably buys the bullshit that scumbag is selling them, else they would not have re-elected him. Nessus fucked around with this message at 00:01 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 23:58
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Cubey posted:And if that is what it takes for the Democrats to grow a loving spine and move to the left, then that's what needs to happen. The longer we continue to accept the lesser of two evils, the less the likelihood of a single goddamn thing changing. Didn't work the last half-dozen times Democrats lost office, why the gently caress do you think it'll work now?
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May 5, 2015 00:02
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Cubey posted:I'd rather vote Republican in the hopes that the Dems lose the election and fall the hell apart and maybe reform as a party that actually follows an ideology that isn't center-right (even though the last time they fell apart they came back as the shitshow party we have now). Continuing to vote for Democrats that maintain the awful status quo of that awful party accomplishes less than nothing. If you want America to get worse and worse in every way for everyone but the fantastically rich then congratulations, you're just an ordinary Republican. You can discard your unnecessary pretensions at being a leftist and bask in having a mainstream viewpoint!
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May 5, 2015 00:04
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Obdicut posted:Then why the gently caress hasn't this happened in Kansas? Why has the opposite happened: The GOP has become more entrenched? I would have to assume because young people are becoming convinced that voting doesn't matter, or that there are no candidates who represent any of their interests. They stay home and abstain, and the majority of votes are from entrenched conservatives. I'm probably super wrong.
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May 5, 2015 00:05
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Cubey posted:Because a majority of the population presumably buys the bullshit that scumbag is selling them, else they would not have re-elected him. So lemme get this straight. You're arguing that the reason people haven't clamored for change when all the branches of their government is controlled by one party is because the population buys the bullshit being fed to them. Follwed immediately by if all the branches of government were controlled by one party, then obviously the population wouldn't buy the bullshit fed to them.
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May 5, 2015 00:05
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Bizarro Kanyon posted:Anecdotally, out of all of my college room mates and class mates that I discussed it with, I was the only person who opposed the Iraq War from the build up. It was extremely frustrating because it was a lot of "we have to attack them before they attack us" lines. Yeah, well, I was against the War on Terror on September 12th. Nyah nyah.
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May 5, 2015 00:07
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We can keep trying this dumb pie-in-the-sky plan wherein hundreds of thousands of americans will die to sate our moral outrage. Alternatively, we can do what the Conservatives (i.e. those people we like to mock so much for being moronic) have had such great success doing. Hint: it does not involve facetiously voting for Democrats as an nth-dimensional chess strategem to trigger a conservative cultural revolution.
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May 5, 2015 00:10
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Obdicut posted:This isn't an answer. They can continue to blame old Democratic-caused problems, continue to whip up blaming blacks and immigrants. This is hardly novel territory. Again, there are states where things are poo poo, where things are demonstrably poo poo, seriously like completely 2nd class when compared to other states, like not at the same development level, and they are completely locked down by the GOP. Guess what? They loving deserve it. If that's what they want, then gently caress them. And if the American people are satisfied in continuing to elect presidents from both parties that do not have the best interests of the middle or lower classes in mind, they deserve a Republican president who will utterly destroy them. If it doesn't change anything? gently caress the public, they got what they asked for and now they can wallow in their own poo poo. Again, voting for Democrats has accomplished absolutely nothing but them digging their heels in and standing firm as a party in the center-right. Would everything going to poo poo force them left? gently caress man I dunno, but voting them back into office demonstrably wouldn't. If you got a better idea of how to make the Democrats actually stand for people besides the rich, I'd love to hear it. UberJew posted:If you want America to get worse and worse in every way for everyone but the fantastically rich then congratulations, you're just an ordinary Republican. I fail to see how the Democrats are different at all in this regard. Obama is currently pushing the TPP (and will likely be successful in doing so) and Clinton gave us NAFTA and repealed Glass-Steagal. Yeah those guys surely were for the common man, thanks for standing up for the little guy like a true Democrat 
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May 5, 2015 00:12
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Cubey posted:Guess what? They loving deserve it. If that's what they want, then gently caress them. Thanks for being honest, you're a horrible person. People aren't perfect rational actors, lots of the people you're making GBS threads on have been done a massive disservice by their country by letting them grow up uneducated, abused by employers, and used to hearing science denigrated by the government. There's lots and lots of reasons for people to make horrible political decisions and support awful people and very few of those reasons involve being actually bad or evil. If you had been born in small-town Wyoming you'd have probably grown up into one of those people you're saying 'gently caress them' about. Let's figure out ways to help people rather than to smugly and self-righteously poo poo on them and then blame them for ensuing problems. The latter has never worked in the history of mankind.
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May 5, 2015 00:17
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Cubey posted:I fail to see how the Democrats are different at all in this regard. Obama is currently pushing the TPP (and will likely be successful in doing so) and Clinton gave us NAFTA and repealed Glass-Steagal. Yeah those guys surely were for the common man, thanks for standing up for the little guy like a true Democrat Whoa whoa whoa, but what about gay people and abortion??? You can't POSSIBLY believe what you're saying. Is this a troll??
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May 5, 2015 00:18
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Sorry,Under the vegetable posted:Yeah, well, I was against the War on Terror on September 12th. Nyah nyah. I meant that in terms of people saying that everyone they knew was against the war. I was not really trying to gain cred points. The Iraq War was brutally popular throughout large portions of the country. My college was extremely in favor of it.
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May 5, 2015 00:18
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Cubey posted:I fail to see how the Democrats are different at all in this regard. Obama is currently pushing the TPP (and will likely be successful in doing so) and Clinton gave us NAFTA and repealed Glass-Steagal. Yeah those guys surely were for the common man, thanks for standing up for the little guy like a true Democrat You honestly don't see any way in which the Republican party is actually worse for Americans? Glad you're healthy, white, straight and male and can ignore social issues and healthcare to drat both parties because they're oligarchic capitalist shills. The rest of us who don't hate the marginalized in society will continue to understand that there's a difference between the capitalist shithole in which we live now and the insane white evangelical hell a republican sweep of the Presidency and SCOTUS would gleefully seek to bring about.
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May 5, 2015 00:20
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Bizarro Kanyon posted:Sorry, Yeah, I'm just trying to be light, bring a little levity to it. Everyone I knew as well, even self-described leftists, were being paranoid warmongers with an undercurrent of racism.
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May 5, 2015 00:21
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I'm pleased to find out that captive populations (blacks, native-americans, latinos, nonliberated women, the homeless, minors) deserve to be destroyed because their oppressors do not elect sufficiently pure leftists.
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May 5, 2015 00:21
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At the very least QV is so in love with the sound of his own voice that he manages to be somewhat less repugnant. Congratulations Cubey, you're the biggest piece of poo poo in the thread!
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May 5, 2015 00:21
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Cubey posted:Guess what? They loving deserve it. If that's what they want, then gently caress them. No, the white relatively well off people who largely vote Republican do not deserve to get to torture and kill off the poor, the minorities etc. Unless you think the Klan deserves to fulfill its goals I guess?
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May 5, 2015 00:22
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Obdicut posted:Yeah. I never understand why accerationsts don't look at, like, Louisiana and understand accelerationism has been tried and what it gets you is horrible. "It just hasn't gotten bad enough for them to realize they need a state-wide swing hard left!" *votes for candidate promising to allow you to shoot public school teachers*
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May 5, 2015 00:24
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Cubey would you gain anything from an R presidency? Besides the smug sense of superiority, or course.
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May 5, 2015 00:24
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UberJew posted:You honestly don't see any way in which the Republican party is actually worse for Americans? I'm starting to think that people can't possibly believe the things the Republican party says they believe and that they exist solely as a cartoonish depiction of evil allowing the Democrats to drift to the right and still look like heroes. Class conflict is at the foundation of all conflict.
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May 5, 2015 00:24
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Captain_Maclaine posted:"It just hasn't gotten bad enough for them to realize they need a state-wide swing hard left!" *votes for candidate promising to allow you to shoot public school teachers* http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/2014-midterm-election-turnout-lowest-in-70-years/ It's almost like the people who would otherwise vote against these people just, you know, don't vote. It's almost like they have no representation and don't trust either party, and asking them to just vote Democrat is classist condescension.
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May 5, 2015 00:27
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Obdicut posted:Thanks for being honest, you're a horrible person. I guess my posts on an internet forum cancel out the volunteer work I used to do for the homeless and that time I went down to NYC to clean up after Hurricane Sandy. For the record, I am frustrated as gently caress about our broken-rear end political system and am letting off steam because I simply do not see any loving way that poo poo will improve any time in the forseeable future. Obdicut posted:Let's figure out ways to help people rather than to smugly and self-righteously poo poo on them and then blame them for ensuing problems. The latter has never worked in the history of mankind. Voting for more center-right Democrats will not help anyone. This is the point I have been trying to make the entire time. Hillary Clinton will do nothing but continue the policies that hurt the very people you are talking about and that she has any support here or elsewhere is absolutely disgusting, even more so because she is a Democrat, the party that is ostensibly supposed to be more focused on the common man. UberJew posted:Glad you're healthy, white, straight and male and can ignore social issues and healthcare I have been dirt loving poor my entire life and had to have a massive amount of dental work because I did not have insurance for most of my adult life and like most dirt poor people, ate food that was the absolute worst for your teeth because it was all I could afford (and this is still the case). Oh and no, I am not straight. How many other things can you get wrong about me?
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May 5, 2015 00:28
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Cubey posted:Voting for more center-right Democrats will not help anyone. This is the point I have been trying to make the entire time. Hillary Clinton will do nothing but continue the policies that hurt the very people you are talking about and that she has any support here or elsewhere is absolutely disgusting, even more so because she is a Democrat, the party that is ostensibly supposed to be more focused on the common man. What do you think will happen when Jeb Bush signs Obamacare repeal?
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May 5, 2015 00:29
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Under the vegetable posted:http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/2014-midterm-election-turnout-lowest-in-70-years/ I don't disagree, but accerelationism is still idiotic bullshit under the best of conditions.
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May 5, 2015 00:29
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Cubey posted:I have been dirt loving poor my entire life and had to have a massive amount of dental work because I did not have insurance for most of my adult life and like most dirt poor people, ate food that was the absolute worst for your teeth because it was all I could afford (and this is still the case). Oh and no, I am not straight. How many other things can you get wrong about me? Voting against your own interests, then? Truly a flawless specimen of the wild republican voter. atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 00:35 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 00:30
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Cubey posted:Yeah thank god Hillary voted against the Iraq War And then theres the part where idiots seem to think "voted for" is synonymous with "personally spearheaded the propaganda machine for, and wanted it just as much as Cheney". You know what it it is? Hillary and the Iraq war is the left equivalent of Benghazi. Any involvement by her turns her into the true mastermind and ringleader who needs to take all the blame (I mean calling her a loving war criminal? Really?), and who did it because shes so evil and no real other reason
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May 5, 2015 00:32
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