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Kuvo posted:
Just one more HP, that's all they had to give him. A disappointment at every turn.
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Jan 23, 2020 18:30
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facepalmolive posted:Recycled maps and units seemingly randomly placed around the map (instead of the deliberate unit placement in Conquest that you unravel one layer at a time) were just killers. I've been coming to the conclusion that this is probably because FETH might have the widest, most customizable cast of any Fire Emblem game. It's really loving hard to predict what a player might have access to in FETH between anyone potentially reclassing into anything, poaching who knows how many of the twenty or so units that don't start in your house (or not poaching any at all), perma-losses on classic difficulty, etc. I think previous Fire Emblem games can do a reasonable to very good job of predicting what tools the player will have available to them and designing maps to be challenging with that in mind. It's a tradeoff of player customization versus the ability to craft and script battles. The way I play FETH, for example, my forces on a 10 man map are almost invariably 4 melee people of various kinds (usually 1 of them a flier), 3 casters (flexible between healing and damage), 2 archers, and a dancer. But if I wanted to, I could have everyone on a wyvern. Or everyone an archer. And FETH had to be designed with maps being theoretically beatable by those kinds of setups because who the gently caress knows what options your players will take. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 18:31
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Eimi posted:And it seems it'd be an easy thing to hand wave if they put a tiny bit of effort into it. Oh Nohr is a black barren desert maybe Garon found a spell that lets you grow food so even though he's a horrible murderous tyrant a lot of people still love him. Or he has a magical maguffin that prevents you from just stabbing him so you have to find a way to stab him.
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Jan 23, 2020 18:43
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anilEhilated posted:That would require needlessly complicating the pinnacle of storytelling that is HOSHIDO GOOD NOHR BAD GO KILL PEOPLE. And it feels they already ruined that just by giving you a crew of mostly decent people (except Peri) instead of an army of Hans, Iago, and Zola's.
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Jan 23, 2020 19:01
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HitTheTargets posted:In what probab,y shouldn’t come as a shock, the other two Yato gems come from the Nohr brothers. Which means you can only get all four in Rev. So, uh, why do all the guy siblings get all these Yato gems? Because it seems like Chome's sisters get jack poo poo when it comes to legendary doohickeys. chiasaur11 posted:One of the things that eventually completely broke Conquest's plot for me was realizing that the characters... weren't. Part of me wonders if it's because of Fates (and by extension, Awakening) relying so heavily on anime archetypes for its characters. Sure, previous FE titles loved its character archetypes (watch out for arrows!), but those said archetypes came purely from Fire Emblem. The character archetypes in Fates feel completely rote in comparison.
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Jan 23, 2020 21:28
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amigolupus posted:So, uh, why do all the guy siblings get all these Yato gems? Because it seems like Chome's sisters get jack poo poo when it comes to legendary doohickeys. Because they have legendary weapons and the girls do not.
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Jan 23, 2020 21:30
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Hunt11 posted:Because they have legendary weapons and the girls do not. Yeah, they're asking why that is. The real answer is that the sisters are largely extraneous to the plot. We've already seen this with Hinoka.
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Jan 23, 2020 21:43
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Y’all not heard of sexism???
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Jan 23, 2020 21:47
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Corrin doesn't kill a single person on the conquest route.
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Jan 23, 2020 23:35
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wereboat posted:Corrin doesn't kill a single person on the conquest route. Of course not. His “allies” rack up their kill scores on civilians while he stands aside with a frowny face and talks about how he’s sacrificing his happiness. That or the forces of contrivance let him avoid a moral quandary or any need of thinking harder than his lizard brain can handle.
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Jan 24, 2020 00:59
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amigolupus posted:Part of me wonders if it's because of Fates (and by extension, Awakening) relying so heavily on anime archetypes for its characters. Sure, previous FE titles loved its character archetypes (watch out for arrows!), but those said archetypes came purely from Fire Emblem. The character archetypes in Fates feel completely rote in comparison. Interviews actually explain it a bit. In Awakening, supports were divided up by character. So, let's say you were the writer who got Henry. You'd do all his miscellaneous dialogue and some of his supports, including all of them with another character you got. Equally importantly, you'd give all of his supports you didn't write a once-over to ensure that nobody had him talk about meeting his friends from mage camp recently after you'd established they all exploded. It's pretty basic, but it's a smart policy, and everyone being in the same building means you can get some main plot beats in too, like Henry informing Panne about the plot against Emmeryn. Fates outsourced supports, and apparently didn't do the individual assignments, so all anyone knew was the broad outlines. You weren't writing for Your Character, who you'd spent thousands of words refining from broad outline ("People love tsunderes") to a specific person you knew inside and out ("Severa, the hardened mercenary with a hidden heart of gold and serious mommy issues"). Instead you just had the outline and a quota to hit. So if someone said that Xander had a lethal diary allergy, the next support might have his favorite childhood memory be of the time Garon let him eat ice cream nonstop. Nobody cares enough to correct it, and while the art lets characters like Camilla be successful on their surface assets, the hollow writing makes it difficult to care about them on a deeper level than "This person is hot" or "A character with this broad outline of a personality could be really interesting".
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Jan 24, 2020 01:41
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chiasaur11 posted:Fates outsourced supports, and apparently didn't do the individual assignments, so all anyone knew was the broad outlines. You weren't writing for Your Character, who you'd spent thousands of words refining from broad outline ("People love tsunderes") to a specific person you knew inside and out ("Severa, the hardened mercenary with a hidden heart of gold and serious mommy issues"). Instead you just had the outline and a quota to hit. So if someone said that Xander had a lethal diary allergy, the next support might have his favorite childhood memory be of the time Garon let him eat ice cream nonstop. Nobody cares enough to correct it, and while the art lets characters like Camilla be successful on their surface assets, the hollow writing makes it difficult to care about them on a deeper level than "This person is hot" or "A character with this broad outline of a personality could be really interesting". That WOULD be on-brand for Garon though.
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Jan 24, 2020 02:49
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Eimi posted:I'm on chapter 14 so waiting for the madness to kick in, and thus far just like why hasn't anyone just thought "yes let's kill our obviously evil father, there's five of us and one of him" Conquest isn't insane like Revelations, it's just incredibly, INCREDIBLY, dumb. Along with multiple incredibly nonsensical bits (see also: Azura's Conquest recruitment map). chiasaur11 posted:
THIS one, at least, is because someone in the Treehouse support convo localization staff thought it'd be funny. That's the Beruka/Saizo C-rank and it was dialogue in the JP version, but some dipshit went "you know what'd be funny, two stoic characters just standing around ...ing at each other." To wit: 
Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 02:50
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wereboat posted:Corrin doesn't kill a single person on the conquest route. Geostomp posted:Of course not. His “allies” rack up their kill scores on civilians while he stands aside with a frowny face and talks about how he’s sacrificing his happiness. That or the forces of contrivance let him avoid a moral quandary or any need of thinking harder than his lizard brain can handle. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but still.  Sounds like they wanted Chome to go on a darker path without actually committing to it and it just comes out as stupid instead. It makes me think of how that Gundam Seed remaster retconned Kira killing Athrun's friend into Athrun's friend being the one to walk into the sword because the writers can't let their perfect Kira dirty his ideals by killing others. chiasaur11 posted:Interviews actually explain it a bit. Thanks for this. That explains so much about Fates characters being shallow one-note characters, both in the story and in supports.
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Jan 24, 2020 06:55
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wereboat posted:Corrin doesn't kill a single person on the conquest route. Should hang out with Kazuma Kiryu.
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Jan 24, 2020 16:23
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Don't you bring Kiryu into this anime hell!
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Jan 24, 2020 23:00
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Cythereal posted:I've been coming to the conclusion that this is probably because FETH might have the widest, most customizable cast of any Fire Emblem game. It's really loving hard to predict what a player might have access to in FETH between anyone potentially reclassing into anything, poaching who knows how many of the twenty or so units that don't start in your house (or not poaching any at all), perma-losses on classic difficulty, etc. This is a pretty thoughtful take on it. You might be correct. This reminds me of a legendary board game designer playtesting another designer's prototype. One of the pieces of feedback was 'you need to take control of your own game'. In his case, there's some randomness element in his game such that the variance between bad and good outcomes swings wildly one way or the other, leading to some fairly degenerate and unfun games when the dice roll a certain way. Having zero randomness/variation is bad, too -- in FE's case, no reclassing options, fixed stat increases on levels, etc. -- it makes the player feel railroaded through the game with no player agency, and makes every playthrough feel same-y. However, having infinite variation isn't great either, because some combinations of game states just aren't very fun. The burden is on the game designer to put boundaries around the amount of variance and 'take control of the game' back. chiasaur11 posted:Equally importantly, you'd give all of his supports you didn't write a once-over to ensure that nobody had him talk about meeting his friends from mage camp recently after you'd established they all exploded. This is so crucial, and so obvious why this would be important. Like, they even thought to do this in the past, so there's really no excuse. To me, Fates suffered from the man-month problem. 'This is a big project? Throw more warm bodies at it.' Real projects don't scale that way. Everything I read about it screams a failure in project management. If you look closely enough, it has some really great individual pieces (setting/concept art, music, level design, etc.). But there's a sore lack of cohesion, having been too many cooks in the kitchen (we want three routes! and children, because those were popular in Awakening! more face-petting! less face-petting!), which ultimately led to a lack of clear direction. And I think this lack of vision is what made the game feel so heartless and soulless.
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Jan 25, 2020 00:22
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Lord Koth posted:THIS one, at least, is because someone in the Treehouse support convo localization staff thought it'd be funny. That's the Beruka/Saizo C-rank and it was dialogue in the JP version, but some dipshit went "you know what'd be funny, two stoic characters just standing around ...ing at each other." Sorry, but the English version is a marked improvement over "Hello fellow assassin, I too am an assassin, let us speak of assassin things."
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Jan 25, 2020 00:57
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They should've just had the team that localizes any hint of lGBT relationships out of the game develop it. Those guys are batting 1000
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Jan 25, 2020 01:09
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facepalmolive posted:This is a pretty thoughtful take on it. You might be correct. I have a lot of experience DMing dungeons and dragons, and my view on it is: give people choices, and some people are going to make bad choices. As the person designing the game's encounters and challenges, you have to bear this in mind. You can try to teach players what they should do, what the good decisions are, but even with the most hand-holdy tutorials some people won't listen. Obviously, when running a game with people like DnD, a good DM can and should adjust the game's design on the fly to meet players halfway and ensure everyone's having fun. Video game developers do not have that privilege, and so they face a question: who do they design the game for? Do they design it for the people who consciously learn the game's systems and try to build and run effective parties that make the most of game mechanics? Do they design the game for people who are just using characters they like and options that look cool? Something in between? One way that theoretically should let designers have their cake and eat it too is difficulty settings. An easy mode for that second crowd and the people who just want to relax, a moderate mode for people who will make some effort to build and play intelligently but don't min-max, a hard mode for the people who learn the game inside and out, etc. Of course, user psychology doesn't work like that and simple difficulty levels don't really solve the problem. It's a very complicated and always-shifting mess with no perfect solutions to be had. I've never seen a game that didn't have at least a handful of people who love it and at least a handful of people who hate it.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:23
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Lord Koth posted:THIS one, at least, is because someone in the Treehouse support convo localization staff thought it'd be funny. That's the Beruka/Saizo C-rank and it was dialogue in the JP version, but some dipshit went "you know what'd be funny, two stoic characters just standing around ...ing at each other." They were right.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:39
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inthesto posted:Sorry, but the English version is a marked improvement over "Hello fellow assassin, I too am an assassin, let us speak of assassin things."
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Jan 25, 2020 01:44
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inthesto posted:Sorry, but the English version is a marked improvement over "Hello fellow assassin, I too am an assassin, let us speak of assassin things." Yeah, the English one is a lot more entertaining due to it being self-aware humor. The JP one seems like an awfully open conversation between two people in a stealthy trade who just met each other, tinged with a bit of edge, because of course there is.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:52
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inthesto posted:Sorry, but the English version is a marked improvement over "Hello fellow assassin, I too am an assassin, let us speak of assassin things." See, that conversation could have been interesting. (Even if it is a bit too open for a C rank between two people who are supposed to be so cagey about things) It's a comparison of moral philosophies between professional killers, emphasizing the conflict between Saizo's perpetual guilt and Beruka outsourcing her conscience to Camilla. It's one of the big reasons I thought of Mikazuki "Who should I kill next?" Augus. But her supports, as I mentioned before, weren't consistent. Instead of it giving insight into how they're different, it's creating a difference that's forgotten in the next support over.
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Jan 25, 2020 02:17
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yeah the problem is less with the "..." support and more with the fact that their later supports refer to the conversation that takes place in the Japanese version and are not altered to account for the ellipsis-dialogue.
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Jan 25, 2020 07:49
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 new video Ep 89 - Chapter 27 - King Garon (part 2) 30 mins of me moving doods enjoy
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Jan 26, 2020 22:09
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Conquest honestly still plays better then Three Houses. Three Houses is just infinitely superior in every other category and the only thing really holding it back from reaching Conquest is being far too easy and poor map/enemy design.
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Jan 26, 2020 23:51
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Midori the MVP for looting the place.
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Jan 27, 2020 00:42
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RevolverDivider posted:Conquest honestly still plays better then Three Houses. Three Houses is just infinitely superior in every other category and the only thing really holding it back from reaching Conquest is being far too easy and poor map/enemy design. I posted earlier in here about how maybe Three Houses was going to address Fire Emblem's identity crisis, and it looks like I have my answer; it hasn't resolved the conflict, it's simply chosen a side. Fire Emblem has nominally died and come back, but the Fire Emblem that came back is pretty clearly not the Fire Emblem that died. Three Houses is widely (and rightly) beloved for completely different reasons than those for which the pre-Awakening titles were beloved - the strategy game design has taken a backseat, for good, seemingly. This isn't to say that the strategy elements in Three Houses are badly designed (well, maybe one or two of them are); on the whole the game does a good job of providing an appreciable difficulty curve with interesting roadbumps and various payoffs for learning how things work. But things quickly fall apart when the game tries to provide its real challenge; there are a couple of interesting wrinkles in Maddening difficulty but on the whole it's still massively frontloaded and plays dangerous games with combat complexity that I don't personally think are very good game design patterns. There are a huge host of systemic inconsistencies, the interface is consistently atrocious, and there's kind of too many ways of achieving not enough different goals. And the monastery daily-life side of the game is just a huge swing and a miss. It's been months since I finished Three Houses and I'm still not completely sure what the sum total of my opinions of it are. It's kind of all over the place. It's conceptually at war with itself. It's often good - great, even - in ways that are completely opposed to eachother, which interfere rather than synergise. Possibly I think it conceptually bit off a bit more than it could chew. Don't get me wrong here - the writers have done astonishingly good work keeping the whole thing straight, but too much of the amazing character work seems to me to be ornamental when all's said and done, even when it's well done, which is almost always. Ultimately I think Three Houses' biggest problem is that its meta-structure draws your direct attention to its artifice, even though the scope of the game's greatest triumphs doesn't really become apparent until you start scrutinising that meta-structure. It practically demands you replay it at least once, and it's on the replay that it starts sinking in how much of your time the game occupies with busywork, how little scope for narrative choice there is, how much of the game's content is replicated between what seems when you're on your first playthrough to be wildly divergent paths. Three Houses has the narrative design of a CYOA or perhaps a very short Kotaro Uchikoshi title, but it has the pacing of a 100 hour JRPG. I absolutely love the poo poo out of Three Houses' meta-plot, but I feel getting to the point where you have any perspective on that by necessity requires you to notice all the seams in it. I'm intrigued by the upcoming DLC, however. Supposedly, it's much more linear in structure. Maybe it'll bring a little of the classic design back? We can but hope that those sensibilities are still with the team, even if they've been dormant, hidden underground like some kind of secret fourth house. Fates is bad.
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Jan 27, 2020 04:49
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Fedule posted:Fates is bad. You always have such in depth posts about games, I've gotta ask, are you in game dev or involved in some way or just someone who actually thinks about how things work beyond 'haha, there's probably an invisible rabbit making sure this NPC turns to talk to me right now' ? Fire Emblem: Fates, the fourteenth game(s) in the Fire Emblem series, are bad.
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Jan 27, 2020 07:05
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While disappointing that Kana wasn't able to show up her dad again at least Garon was taken out by a sweet song mix. Can Azura do anything special if you take her along on this mission?
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Jan 27, 2020 08:26
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RareAcumen posted:You always have such in depth posts about games, I've gotta ask, are you in game dev or involved in some way or just someone who actually thinks about how things work beyond 'haha, there's probably an invisible rabbit making sure this NPC turns to talk to me right now' ? Naw I'm not in game dev. Maybe someday, but I don't think I have the resilience for big studio work or the temperament (or the savings) for indie. I like to talk up systems and mechanics and high-level design of stuff but appraise it in a way that's sort of art-like; Is it this way for a reason? Is there a way it *should* have been (and can we meaningfully say something was designed wrong)? Does it flow, and work, and land? Are there longstanding problems that broadly aren't cared about on the development side and aren't noticed on the player side? (funnily enough, I don't think that last post was very in-depth. But give me an hour or two and let me tell you about the inventory flows in Three Houses...)
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Jan 27, 2020 15:11
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Fedule posted:Naw I'm not in game dev. Maybe someday, but I don't think I have the resilience for big studio work or the temperament (or the savings) for indie. I like to talk up systems and mechanics and high-level design of stuff but appraise it in a way that's sort of art-like; Is it this way for a reason? Is there a way it *should* have been (and can we meaningfully say something was designed wrong)? Does it flow, and work, and land? Are there longstanding problems that broadly aren't cared about on the development side and aren't noticed on the player side? Well, fair, you didn't really go into what specifically was clashing into the game beyond it just being too long for its own good and a lot of busywork added to it so I guess you could add more specifics to what it's missing but that said, that's more words than I use when I talk about any game I play so you're doing better than me. 
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Jan 27, 2020 17:35
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as a personal example of what fedule's talking about: i booted up birthright for the first time in a long while and it just straight up has more tactical depth than 3H. it's not necessarily more fun - i've been enjoying replaying Echoes more than either, apart from some glaringly awful couple of maps - but 3H has a lot of busywork disguised as strategy and even less tactics. it reminds me of a meme that went around a while ago: "i love strategy and tactics rpgs! my strategy is to have higher stats than the enemy, and my tactics are to attack and kill them." that's fire emblem, babey
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Jan 28, 2020 03:18
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ungulateman posted:as a personal example of what fedule's talking about : i booted up birthright for the first time in a long while and it just straight up has more tactical depth than 3H. it's not necessarily more fun - i've been enjoying replaying Echoes more than either, apart from some glaringly awful couple of maps - but 3H has a lot of busywork disguised as strategy and even less tactics. I'd be willing to say this problem of lacking tactical depth runs as deep as the beginning of the "new era" FE games. I haven't played it, but given that I know Echoes is a direct remake of FE2, I'd imagine that'd be why its more tactically focused if it's a semi-faithful recreation. The foundation of the more recent FEs seem to put their focus on supports, the pair up system, and overwhelming stat values. Those aspects were respectively very simple, non-existent, and difficult to achieve in the prior era, resulting in what seems to be a massive power creep in these "new-era" games. The only modern FE I've played was Awakening, but I found the strategy part of the game vanishes at least 1/2 to 3/4 of the way in when my units basically started ignoring the idea that a weapon triangle or even that the defense stat matters to the point I didn't need to care about where I sent them. The same seems to apply for the most part in Fates so far, and what I've seen of 3H doesn't seem to suggest it keeps the pressure on too heavily either. It's probably a result of them lowering the difficulty overall to bring in new players, but I can't help but think these newer games are simply putting less focus on the tactics in the first place. I just got off of playing FE3 a month or two ago, and despite ending up with powerful units, they were far from immune and I only had but a few of them that were considerably strong. You could have a really strong caster, but they'd crumple if you put them against a fight they had no advantage in. Hero units were juggernauts, but they were far from invincible if left exposed to too much fighting. FE7 was the same way- even a powerful Hector would go down if you let him enter too many battles. I compare the older games to a complicated game of chess. The newer ones feel like playing a TCG where you simply win by having the best cards. I'm not the best at putting together an argument, especially when it's late at night. Take what I've said with a grain of salt or two, I suppose. (I'm not bashing the new direction, but I'll admit to preferring the older, hard strategy the games used to be.)
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Jan 28, 2020 06:28
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I read Fedule's LPs of the Ike FEs a long time ago so I just use that one as an example. Now, I don't have anything besides Awakening, Fates, and Echoes so those are my examples. I think the biggest things differentiating the games now is that there's not many survive maps. It's either 'Defeat the boss' or 'Rout the enemy.' You don't really have a lot of people coming after you and a spot they're not supposed to reach. Awakening had an early one where you're defending Emmeryn but aside from that and one early map in Revelations I can't think of any other ones in the 3DS ones. That said, I'm so happy to never see a stealth prison map ever again.
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Jan 28, 2020 06:39
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RareAcumen posted:I read Fedule's LPs of the Ike FEs a long time ago so I just use that one as an example. Now, I don't have anything besides Awakening, Fates, and Echoes so those are my examples. Map 10 in Conquest is a defense map. It was pretty widely discussed when the game came out. (And I have bad news about Revelation and stealth...) In general, Conquest has a lot of maps designed to screw you over if you go in without a plan, no matter how strong your units are. (Which is also why there's no grinding) It's debatable how well they did things, but they were trying. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Jan 28, 2020 |
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Jan 28, 2020 06:45
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chiasaur11 posted:Map 10 in Conquest is a defense map. It was pretty widely discussed when the game came out. It's been so long.  This LP seemed like it'd never end at times.
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Jan 28, 2020 06:59
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I just want huge maps like Radiant Dawn had (did PoR have them too?). Where you have to actually use all those characters you've been amassing instead of being limited to maybe ten. Echoes had some of that, though they tended to get in each other's way and have to file through narrow hallways. It works better on defensive maps or fields where you can have multiple fronts.
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Jan 28, 2020 07:10
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RareAcumen posted:I read Fedule's LPs of the Ike FEs a long time ago so I just use that one as an example. Now, I don't have anything besides Awakening, Fates, and Echoes so those are my examples. Awakening is the only modern Fire Emblem I've played. Most of the ones I've played are the older ones. I'll definitely agree that the varied mission types really help. FE3, being a SNES game, really only has seize throne maps which does get very tiring after a while. It's worth noting that a lot of the maps have you facing pretty overwhelming odds with large aggro ranges , which leads to a lot of holding off swarms as you approach the boss. It's kind of like survival, but it still lacks the feel of holding a fort. Emmeryn's the only protect map I can think of in Awakening, though there were a few defend Anna/ random villager paralogues that end up being more of a mad dash than a defense map. The earlier games unfortunately have a few prison segments. Thracia has one, and FE1/3 Book 1 has a prison break portion to one of its maps. The former is basically a stealth segment, but the latter is mostly just charging to the rescue of some trapped units with your army. Bruceski posted:I just want huge maps like Radiant Dawn had (did PoR have them too?). Where you have to actually use all those characters you've been amassing instead of being limited to maybe ten. Echoes had some of that, though they tended to get in each other's way and have to file through narrow hallways. It works better on defensive maps or fields where you can have multiple fronts. I never had much chance to play too far into it, but Genealogy has some ridiculously huge maps and unit allowance from what I've seen. They're hybrid defense/attack, but still end up being a mad dash to save villages half the time. It feels pretty ridiculous when you've got an army of 30-40 people and you're continuously forced to bring in 8 units on maps that aren't even that cramped. That being said, I'd like more defensive maps in general. It makes you have to manage your resources a lot more differently than pushing forward.
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Jan 28, 2020 08:24
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