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If you think war is the only answer you might want to be more grim about it. You're talking America and Russia fighting over proxy states except this time they're both capitalists as well as nuclear powers. Also lmao a modern mechanized war between two major nuclear powers on the edge of severe climate change. Our only hope is that it's as buggy in real life as the new Battlefield game made it out to be. edit: Oh a lot of our military leadership are either evangelicals who think Satan is a real force, self-radicalized into Q, or both. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 00:30
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Post-maidan governments have also been shutting down and suppressing opposition media, banning opposition parties, and in general discriminating against and treating the russian speaking and eastern parts of the country like poo poo. There's a reason Donetsk broke away.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:30
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CommieGIR posted:"Yeah, let's just let Russian prosecute wars, problem solved" I sort of buy into the rogue oblast theory that was floated by Moscow. I hope as America we can deal with our internal issues before we return to taking the lead on the international stage. Seems imperative to address the fact our Republic was the target of a fascist coup and our elected officials continue to dine and work with the perpetrators. To say nothing of the judicial insurrection that is operating at every single level of the branch, murdering protestors was legalized and abortion was made illegal in the matter of weeks? So where do we have time to fight a war with Russia, pretty sure sleepy joe is one military disaster away from an honest to god military coup.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:37
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If Putin further invades there are from that point no options that aren't terrible. So I guess I'm hoping he gets deterred and/or bribed before that point. also the EE thread is pretty happening, I'm not currently going to require discussion move there but it's a good environment for it mila kunis posted:Post-maidan governments have also been shutting down and suppressing opposition media, banning opposition parties, and in general discriminating against and treating the russian speaking and eastern parts of the country like poo poo. There's a reason Donetsk broke away. Donetsk et al started the breakaway process two weeks after Yanukovich got the boot.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:41
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CommieGIR posted:"Yeah, let's just let Russian prosecute wars, problem solved" A military response *might* make sense if it was coming collectively from an international community that had the Ukranian people's best interests at heart but that's simply not the reality we exist in. This is the US engaging in a morally dubious proxy war unilaterally in order to weaken a political rival and maintain it's own global base of power and civilian wellbeing won't be factored into the equation in the slightest. A hypothetical war to "defend" Ukraine will likely end up turning the country into a meat grinder as civil war breaks out and 2 of the largest superpowers exchange blows on their soil. It would be an absolutely apocalyptic event for anybody living there just like every other time something like this has happened. Not to mention the fact that once we win (assuming we win cleanly and don't end up creating Vietnam III) we'd probably install the most right-wing psychopath we can find who will usher in a new dark age of religious tyranny, austerity and legalized theft by the state. Oh! And none of that takes into account the possibility that this ratchets up tensions with Russia to the point where a larger conflict breaks out starting a huge war with a non-zero change of making it's way to US soil (because Russia is a real country with major allies and a big boy military with the ability to fight back if needed). Considering that most of the countries involved have nukes I'm not exactly itching to see this happen (thought to be honest I worry more about he US nuking Russia/Ukraine than the other way around. We have a history of wanting to proactively nuke people really badly). So yeah, just let Russia have Ukrane for now. It sucks but it beats the alternatives. (Seriously, why the gently caress are so many liberals still so willing to get behind this poo poo post-Iraq!?) E: By the way poo poo like this is why I don't vote for Democrats anymore. I'm just so loving tired of having to explain this poo poo to otherwise good people because they saw the Democrats agitating for war and assume it must be the right choice if the "good team" is advocating for it. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 01:01
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readingatwork posted:A military response *might* make sense if it was coming collectively from an international community that had the Ukranian people's best interests at heart but that's simply not the reality we exist in. This is the US engaging in a morally dubious proxy war unilaterally in order to weaken a political rival and maintain it's own global base of power and civilian wellbeing won't be factored into the equation in the slightest. A hypothetical war to "defend" Ukraine will likely end up turning the country into a meat grinder as civil war breaks out and 2 of the largest superpowers exchange blows on their soil. It would be an absolutely apocalyptic event for anybody living there just like every other time something like this has happened. Not to mention the fact that once we win (assuming we win cleanly and don't end up creating Vietnam III) we'd probably install the most right-wing psychopath we can find who will usher in a new dark age of religious tyranny, austerity and legalized theft by the state. I think describing a theoretical military intervention against Russian annexation of Ukraine as a morally dubious unilateral proxy war to serve American Empire directly comparable to Iraq, Afghanistan or even Domino Theory Wars like Korea and Vietnam are pretty flawed reasoning. Ukraine is a large country with a large conventional military and a relatively stable democratic government. The US Military helping them would be way more analogous to something like our military presence in Western Germany during the Cold War or Japan. That's not to say that those things are universally good, far from it. But my point is that us invading a country to topple its government and nation build or us invading a country to put down one side of a civil war/revolution is not the same thing as us sending troops to help an outgunned nation state defend itself from an external belligerent. Ukraine deserves our help, and the help of the world, if they ask for it. Putin has been leveraging his petrol resources and the world's fear of a Great Power Conflict to become a de facto 19th Century Imperialist for the last two decades, and just leaving him alone to keep doing that because We've Got Our Own Problems is not a smart decision.
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Dec 6, 2021 01:43
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Bush and the neocons are bad because they started a bunch of unwinnable wars with pissant countries and lost them all, whereas I want to start a land war with Russia in addition to rolling the dice on Mutually Assured Destruction Man this place blackpills me like no other, Trump was the harm reduction candidate compared to blow-up-the-world neocolonialist liberals I wish we had another earth so we could dump all the warmongers and nationalists there and let them all blow each other up over flags and slogans and leave the rest of us in peace
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Dec 6, 2021 01:55
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Terminal autist posted:I sort of buy into the rogue oblast theory that was floated by Moscow. So you literally bought the excuse a kleptocracy is using to justifying annexing countries. Just...no. readingatwork posted:A military response *might* make sense if it was coming collectively from an international community that had the Ukranian people's best interests at heart but that's simply not the reality we exist in. This is the US engaging in a morally dubious proxy war unilaterally in order to weaken a political rival and maintain it's own global base of power and civilian wellbeing won't be factored into the equation in the slightest. A hypothetical war to "defend" Ukraine will likely end up turning the country into a meat grinder as civil war breaks out and 2 of the largest superpowers exchange blows on their soil. It would be an absolutely apocalyptic event for anybody living there just like every other time something like this has happened. Not to mention the fact that once we win (assuming we win cleanly and don't end up creating Vietnam III) we'd probably install the most right-wing psychopath we can find who will usher in a new dark age of religious tyranny, austerity and legalized theft by the state. The problem with this entire view is that Russia is the one largely ratcheting up tensions, and has been for nearly a decade. Part of why Putin was so enthusiastic about Trump's Administration was their willingness to not only turn a blind eye to them but actively make excuses for the Putin Regime's actions. The idea that we should allow Ukraine to fall to avoid tensions that already exist with Russia is concerning.
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Dec 6, 2021 01:57
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Sanguinia posted:Ukraine deserves our help, and the help of the world, if they ask for it. Putin has been leveraging his petrol resources and the world's fear of a Great Power Conflict to become a de facto 19th Century Imperialist for the last two decades, and just leaving him alone to keep doing that because We've Got Our Own Problems is not a smart decision. Okay, how does the U.S. stop him? And it would be the U.S. going it alone, make no mistake about it; Europe will not be joining us.
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Dec 6, 2021 02:09
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CommieGIR posted:So you literally bought the excuse a kleptocracy is using to justifying annexing countries. Just...no. I don't make policy, I don't vote and I'm neither Russian or Ukrainian, nothing I think about the matter is even relevant. Not the entirety of Ukrainian clay and all of its resources is worth a single drop of american blood. Let the hooting euro-dog barbarians fight their own wars
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Dec 6, 2021 02:10
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VitalSigns posted:Bush and the neocons are bad because they started a bunch of unwinnable wars with pissant countries and lost them all, whereas I want to start a land war with Russia in addition to rolling the dice on Mutually Assured Destruction Trump sent more drones to the middle east in 4 years than Obama did in 8, almost started a nuclear war with North Korea, almost started a regime change war with Venezuela, almost started a world war by assassinating Iran's top general, and greenlit more aggression and war crimes on the part of Isreal and Saudi Arabia than maybe any modern president. What the gently caress are you talking about? I can't believe I'm reading an actual Donald The Dove take in loving 2021 Majorian posted:Okay, how does the U.S. stop him? And it would be the U.S. going it alone, make no mistake about it; Europe will not be joining us. I think the only thing that can or should be done is wait for Ukraine to tell us what they would like us to do. If they want us to send forces into their borders and set up bases to deter Russian aggression, we should do that. If Russia starts a full scale war and they ask for our assistance, we should send it. Under no circumstances should we act unilaterally, Ukraine are the ones in trouble and if they asks for help we should give it. What would be best is a formal military alliance that would obviate the need for either of those more overt steps, frankly Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 02:12
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Majorian posted:Okay, how does the U.S. stop him? And it would be the U.S. going it alone, make no mistake about it; Europe will not be joining us.
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Dec 6, 2021 02:13
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FlamingLiberal posted:Unfortunately I think the best option is to do nothing. All of the options are bad, but fighting Russia in a hot war is NOT the solution.  Also it's bait. Putin is trying to stick his thumb in the West's eye to benefit himself and his government domestically. He's trying to distract from Russia's very real domestic problems, including a disastrous COVID response. We shouldn't aid him in this effort.
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Dec 6, 2021 02:19
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Sanguinia posted:Trump sent more drones to the middle east in 4 years than Obama did in 8, almost started a nuclear war with North Korea, almost started a regime change war with Venezuela, almost started a world war by assassinating Iran's top general, and greenlit more aggression and war crimes on the part of Isreal and Saudi Arabia than maybe any modern president. What the gently caress are you talking about? Luckily I don't think Biden is as bloodthirsty as the media pushing all the neocolonial liberal war propaganda that's being parroted here. Well I hope not anyway. Hell even Kissinger wasn't crazy enough to want to invade Eastern Europe
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Dec 6, 2021 02:21
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I’m very amused by this conversation because other countries have to make this exact same moral calculus CONSTANTLY when it comes to our own psychotic empire devouring anything not nailed down. That we are just SO offended at the prospect of having to stand back and let a major power do a colonialism in order to avoid a costly conflict is incredibly rich.  CommieGIR posted:So you literally bought the excuse a kleptocracy is using to justifying annexing countries. Just...no. To answer your question it doesn’t matter. We shouldn’t be getting involved in a shooting war with a nuclear power unless it’s absolutely necessary for self defense purposes. It sucks but I’ve seen what US “assistance” looks like and I’m done supporting it. IF this is going to happen at all though it needs to be part of an international coalition and done with the Ukrainian people’s overall consent. I mean, is this even something the people of Ukrainian want in the first place? I have my doubts. There also needs to be a vote by congress (remember how there is supposed to be democratic oversight of war?) and strict oversight of the process. But I somehow doubt ANY of that will actually happen.
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Dec 6, 2021 02:21
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I think if Russia invades Ukraine (more), the US should invade Canada in response
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Dec 6, 2021 02:22
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Majorian posted:
I think this is where I am at as well. This buildup could be the precipice of invasion, but it can also be saber rattling and domestic distraction. The west reacting would only aid Putin. If an invasion happens and if Ukraine asks for help, we will be at a crossroads. I am not sure which way we will go to be honest. Fritz the Horse posted:I think if Russia invades Ukraine (more), the US should invade Canada in response This is probably more likely than us getting into a hot war with Russia over Ukraine.
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Dec 6, 2021 02:22
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Honestly I think we'll probably avoid intervention in a traditional sense only so that our gerontocracy can continue calling it "the Ukraine" without being corrected any more. They hate that.
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Dec 6, 2021 02:37
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Again, you really do not want a modern war in Eastern Europe if you give a poo poo about climate change. What a nightmare scenario. Pretty much any modern war will be a hell of an event that will impact climate change but we're talking rolling the dice on another war that has potential to pull in most of Europe and the US. Goodbye green house gas predictions.
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Dec 6, 2021 02:40
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VitalSigns posted:Well I'm comparing him to the let's do WW3 takes in here Just for the record, I don't want to do any World War 3s. I just don't think letting Putin take over major nations is something we should wash our hands over because we can only possibly make things worse, as if that's not already a worst case scenario. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:If an invasion happens and if Ukraine asks for help, we will be at a crossroads. I am not sure which way we will go to be honest. This is the best summary of my feelings. I'm just willing to say that if we're at that crossroads, we should help them, and if they ask for our help in some diplomatic fashion to avoid reaching that point, we should do that too. If Russia annexes Ukraine unchallenged, it won't end there. I hope the people saying this is nothing but saber rattling and Putin is playing tinpot dictator to distract from domestic problems are right. I'd just be more sure of that if hadn't already seized two chunks of two countries in recent years.
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Dec 6, 2021 02:41
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i think it's best to let them have
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Dec 6, 2021 02:43
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Sanguinia posted:Just for the record, I don't want to do any World War 3s. I just don't think letting Putin take over major nations is something we should wash our hands over because we can only possibly make things worse, as if that's not already a worst case scenario. Well when I hear this, I think about how we aren't just washing our hands over our good buddies Israel and Saudi Arabia taking over other nations and bombing them and bulldozing their homes and colonizing them, we're enthusiastically sending them weapons and money to help do it. So why do we have to kill thousands or tens of thousands of American kids in the trenches and drop bombs and risk a nuclear exchange, when we could reduce the amount of colonialism and invasions in the world by simply ending our support for the ones currently going on? And if we aren't willing to do stop invasions when all we have to do is stop writing the checks to back it, then what is the real motive here? Why is not cutting those checks not an option, we can stop some occupations right now without shedding a drop of blood or threatening a nuclear exchange with anyone Herstory Begins Now posted:i think it's best to let them have VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 02:51
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Tankies out in battalions tonight I see (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2021 02:55
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Sanguinia posted:Just for the record, I don't want to do any World War 3s. I just don't think letting Putin take over major nations is something we should wash our hands over because we can only possibly make things worse, as if that's not already a worst case scenario. Shooting Russian soldiers in Ukraine will absolutely escalate things far more than you seem to think. Think of how we've reacted in the past when our soldiers were shot while illegally invading other countries. If your concern is stopping this kind of thing in the future then a better course of action is to take preventative measures with likely targets by providing cash/guns/military bases in key areas you think might be targeted. There are also diplomatic channels that can be tried and economic sanctions that might be effective. Outright war is literally the worst option on the table right now. quote:This is the best summary of my feelings. I'm just willing to say that if we're at that crossroads, we should help them, and if they ask for our help in some diplomatic fashion to avoid reaching that point, we should do that too. If Russia annexes Ukraine unchallenged, it won't end there. You need to substantiate this. Where exactly will he annex next and what is your evidence of this? I agree he's probably open to the idea in some abstract sense but that's not the same thing as concrete plans. Every country on this planet sucks and is willing to steal local territory if the opportunity arises. That doesn't mean they actually have the opportunity or resources to do so. quote:I hope the people saying this is nothing but saber rattling and Putin is playing tinpot dictator to distract from domestic problems are right. I'd just be more sure of that if hadn't already seized two chunks of two countries in recent years. I'm familiar with Ukraine but what's the second one? I'm probably forgetting something obvious here. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 02:59
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VitalSigns posted:Well when I hear this, I think about how we aren't just washing our hands over our good buddies Israel and Saudi Arabia taking over other nations and bombing them and bulldozing their homes and colonizing them, we're enthusiastically sending them weapons and money to help do it. This might surprise you, but I also think we should stop funding Israeli and Saudi imperialism/regional hegemonic warfare. When there is a belligerent nation seizing territory and killing people in one of their neighbors, the US and the world in general should always be on the side of the victims. The fact that we are sometimes on the side of the belligerents for mainly neo-imperialist capitalist reasons is, in fact, bad, and I wish we wouldn't, and I do my best to support politicians that want us to stop. I think that saying "We shouldn't even be talking about stopping Russia if we can't stop ourselves," is rhetorically equivalent to chuds who say dumb poo poo like "not one dollar of foreign aid as long as there's one homeless veteran." You don't stop doing the right thing just because you're also doing the wrong thing and should work on fixing that. readingatwork posted:Shooting Russian soldiers in Ukraine will absolutely escalate things far more than you seem to think. Think of how we've reacted in the past when our soldiers were shot while illegally invading other countries. I did say that diplomatic options like a formal military alliance at a deterrent are preferable to ANY military actions and that anything we do period needs to be at least bilateral with Ukraine taking the lead rather than unilateral, for the record. I'm not advocating for outright war at all. The most I've said is if Russia STARTS outright war and Ukraine asks for help we should do it. As for substantiation, I'm admittedly just looking at the broad historical precedent. When militarily aggressive nations aren't checked, they traditionally keep going until they are. Hitler is just the most obvious example, history is full of this stuff. And the second one was Georgia. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 03:00
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I suspect that there is some way that people can be both anti-war and horrified at putin's efforts to annex/conquer an entire country against their wishes
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Dec 6, 2021 03:01
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readingatwork posted:Shooting Russian soldiers in Ukraine will absolutely escalate things far more than you seem to think. Think of how we've reacted in the past when our soldiers were shot while illegally invading other countries. Georgia, I believe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia
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Dec 6, 2021 03:01
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Could you imagine the politico-media class's response if Russia or China had made this argument (with much greater justification) to threaten war with the USA to deter us from invading Afghanistan or Iraq or Syria or Libya or Yemen: that if someone doesn't stand up to Bush or Obama here, it won't end there and he'll keep gobbling up countries? They would have absolutely lost their poo poo lol
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Dec 6, 2021 03:02
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Sanguinia posted:This might surprise you, but I also think we should stop funding Israeli and Saudi imperialism/regional hegemonic warfare. When there is a belligerent nation seizing territory and killing people in one of their neighbors, the US and the world in general should always be on the side of the victims. The fact that we are sometimes on the side of the belligerents for mainly neo-imperialist capitalist reasons is, in fact, bad, and I wish we wouldn't, and I do my best to support politicians that want us to stop. Legitimately, can you define "the right thing" here? Because the US's history of conflict, and that a conflict is between multiple belligerents with varied goals, I'm not sure I understand what the "right thing" is here. It's a moral statement but there's no context for what it means.
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Dec 6, 2021 03:03
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VitalSigns posted:Hell yeah domino theory's back baby, if we back down next thing you know the Russkis will be advancing through Omaha Nebraska Domino theory was about the idea that if the ideology of communism flourished in one country, it would spread inevitably around to neighboring countries and topple capitalism as the dominant economic and political ideology in the world. Predicting that if Russia invades Ukraine uncontested it won't stop at Ukraine, four years after it didn't stop with Crimea, eight years after it didn't stop with Georgia, isn't domino theory... it's a belief in "past experience is the best predictor of future behavior." VitalSigns posted:Could you imagine the politico-media class's response if Russia or China had made this argument (with much greater justification) to threaten war with the USA to deter us from invading Afghanistan or Iraq or Syria or Libya or Yemen: that if someone doesn't stand up to Bush or Obama here, it won't end there and he'll keep gobbling up countries? Russian troops, tanks, and bombers were used against the American backed forces in Syria, so it doesn't seem like we have to imagine what the response would have been. We saw it. LegendaryFrog fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 03:07
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Gumball Gumption posted:Legitimately, can you define "the right thing" here? Because the US's history of conflict, and that a conflict is between multiple belligerents with varied goals, I'm not sure I understand what the "right thing" is here. It's a moral statement but there's no context for what it means. Ukraine is a sovereign nation who's people have established that sovereignty through self-determination, and many of the reasons they did that have to do with their historical mistreatment at the hands of Russia. If Russia tries to annex them, the right thing is to defend them. ESPECIALLY because Ukraine would be better able to defend themselves through one of the world's largest nuclear arsenals if the United States hadn't encouraged them to disarm. Obviously nuclear anti-proliferation is a complex topic and in general reducing the number of nuclear states is good, but imo it can't be denied that Ukraine not having nukes is a big factor in the current situation, and we ought to take some degree of responsibility for that.
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Dec 6, 2021 03:10
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vs that argument would hold more weight if this wasn't something that russia has done repeatedly, from chechnya and georgia to ukraine
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Dec 6, 2021 03:11
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Biden should do what something unexpected like offering Putin a chance to buy back Alaska if he backs out of Ukraine. Substantiate America’s commitment to sacrifices in the name of world peace.
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Dec 6, 2021 03:12
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Sanguinia posted:This might surprise you, but I also think we should stop funding Israeli and Saudi imperialism/regional hegemonic warfare. When there is a belligerent nation seizing territory and killing people in one of their neighbors, the US and the world in general should always be on the side of the victims. The fact that we are sometimes on the side of the belligerents for mainly neo-imperialist capitalist reasons is, in fact, bad, and I wish we wouldn't, and I do my best to support politicians that want us to stop. But the people manufacturing consent for these wars obviously don't think that, doesn't that make you question the war propaganda? It certainly makes me question what they're telling me. After all the people pushing this war against Russia are the same people pushing for war in Palestine and Yemen and everywhere else, it's not like one good state department guy is saying "hey let's help Ukraine, gosh I sure wish I could stop the evil guy sending bombs to Israel while I'm at it", it's the same people doing both those things! Maybe the people sending bombs to Saudi Arabia are not very good people and not to be trusted, have you considered that? Sanguinia posted:I think that saying "We shouldn't even be talking about stopping Russia if we can't stop ourselves," is rhetorically equivalent to chuds who say dumb poo poo like "not one dollar of foreign aid as long as there's one homeless veteran." You don't stop doing the right thing just because you're also doing the wrong thing and should work on fixing that. It's not equivalent at all. Does helping refugees kill a shitload of people in the trenches and risk nuclear war? No. Does it embroil us in yet another endless clusterfuck war with no guarantee of a good outcome that is incidentally under the leadership of people whose record of intervention is absolutely abysmal? No. There's no problem with helping refugees other than that assholes don't want to spend the money. As well, Putin himself is partially blowback from US meddling in Eastern Europe (we helped rig the presidential election for Putin's patron Boris Yeltsin because we thought having a drunken American puppet sell off Russia to oligarchs and run the country into the ground would be to our geopolitical advantage in the Great Game...ooops). Since the architects of that "brilliant" plan are still behind this new warmongering in Eastern Europe, how confident are you that they know what they're doing and all the blood they want to spill will help and not just make things worse. E: Herstory Begins Now posted:vs that argument would hold more weight if this wasn't something that russia has done repeatedly, from chechnya and georgia to ukraine VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 03:12
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It's extremely funny that the f35 was made specifically because we're done with wars with superpowers now we're at war with terror forever just in time to get bored with wars on terror and right into wars with superpowers. Better turn on the f22 printers! Boeing and Lockheed must have been hit really hard by covid.
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Dec 6, 2021 03:18
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Let's just not do anything and hope Russia unites the slavs
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Dec 6, 2021 03:19
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Sanguinia posted:This might surprise you, but I also think we should stop funding Israeli and Saudi imperialism/regional hegemonic warfare. When there is a belligerent nation seizing territory and killing people in one of their neighbors, the US and the world in general should always be on the side of the victims. The fact that we are sometimes on the side of the belligerents for mainly neo-imperialist capitalist reasons is, in fact, bad, and I wish we wouldn't, and I do my best to support politicians that want us to stop. We're *never* on the side of the victims though. The US is basically a mafia state running an international theft/protection racket and our actions cause massive suffering 99.9% of the time. Which is why I view any potential military action on our part with deep skepticism. Yes, we *could* theoretically be the good guy here if we were a different country run by different people, but I don't think that's how things would actually play out. quote:As for substantiation, I'm admittedly just looking at the broad historical precedent. When militarily aggressive nations aren't checked, they traditionally keep going until they are. Hitler is just the most obvious example, history is full of this stuff. Nazis are actually not at all comparable to modern day Russia in the slightest. The Nazi's were a death cult dedicated on an almost religious level to a worldwide genocide of everybody not exactly like them. Russia on the other hand is just another lovely imperialist nation doing imperialism for realpolitik reasons. There is NO reason whatsoever to think that Russia has plans to steamroll the world the way the Nazis wanted to. Now, comparing Russia's actions to the US on the other hand... quote:And the second one was Georgia. Ah, I'd completely forgotten about that one. Thank you! Herstory Begins Now posted:I suspect that there is some way that people can be both anti-war and horrified at putin's efforts to annex/conquer an entire country against their wishes You can't be anti-war while advocating for war. Sorry but that's just how it works. VitalSigns posted:Could you imagine the politico-media class's response if Russia or China had made this argument (with much greater justification) to threaten war with the USA to deter us from invading Afghanistan or Iraq or Syria or Libya or Yemen: that if someone doesn't stand up to Bush or Obama here, it won't end there and he'll keep gobbling up countries? I kind of wish the world did this actually. The US is a FAR more dangerous and unstable player on the world stage than Russia tbh and ~actually~ needs to have it's power checked in a substantial way. E: Of course the no other country was never going to do this. Our exploitation of smaller countries is a big money maker for the rest of the first world. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 03:22
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VitalSigns posted:As well, Putin himself is partially blowback from US meddling in Eastern Europe (we helped rig the presidential election for Putin's patron Boris Yeltsin because we thought having a drunken American puppet sell off Russia to oligarchs and run the country into the ground would be to our geopolitical advantage in the Great Game...ooops). Since the architects of that "brilliant" plan are still behind this new warmongering in Eastern Europe, how confident are you that they know what they're doing and all the blood they want to spill will help and not just make things worse. No? Much like with Eastern Ukraine, Russia sponsored a separatist movement in Georgia controlled South Ossetia. Said separatists began shelling neighboring Georgian territory, and Russia used a combination of "we are just defending the democratic will of the separatists" combined with an invented narrative about Georgia amassing 150,000 troops in secret to imminently invade and take over Abkhazia to justify sending in the explicit russian troops to finish the job of annexing both territories.
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Dec 6, 2021 03:28
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Yes. Ossetian separatism began far before Putin was anywhere near power, on the justifiable basis of "if Georgia can separate from the USSR, then Ossetia can separate from the Georgian SSR". The last war was absolutely triggered by Georgian revanchsim.
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Dec 6, 2021 03:42
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The US does not have a mutual defense treaty with Ukraine. Unless you believe that the US should literally guarantee the independence with current borders of every state, I don't think the idea of a war is very realistic. Revoking SWIFT membership is what'll happen.
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Dec 6, 2021 03:45
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