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notthegoatseguy posted:So what wasn't racist about that scene? About some random hobo lecturing a bunch of people and then insulting them, using language that is tied to racism? Maybe Danny isn't intentionally being racist, but it was incredibly insensitive and for someone who spent nearly half his life in New York City, he should know how to interact with people to some extent. All humans are monkeys (well apes). HTH.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:00
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Arist posted:The character might not know, but who gives a poo poo, the writers should not be unintentionally putting their character in a position where they sound extremely racist. No poo poo. Good thing I was responding to a specific argument that made a crazy claim about the character. The writing of this show is complete poo poo. The characters, the story, the dialogue. It's garbage. Its treatment of race, drug use, economic hardship, and religion, are tasteless and bad.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:00
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It probably didn't help that all we really know about Danny's time growing up in K'un-Lun is limited to like two minutes of hammy exposition. I don't see why they couldn't have written him as being mildly woke; "dude being racist makes sense and is realistic" just isn't a compelling aspect to a protagonist of a show like that, regardless of plausibility.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:00
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Snak posted:... are you really arguing that because Danny was in NYC from when he was born to when he was 10, he should have picked up how to be racially sensitive before spending 15 years in a monastery? That's a pretty dishonest invocation of "spent nearly half his life". He crashed when he was 14/15. I don't think someone should've forgotten all social and cultural norms just because he was in magical Tibet for a roughly equivalent amount of time. Especially since Kun Lun also had him interact with people who were different than him. In fact since the show repeatedly tells us how calm and zen and amazing he is he probably should be like the most enlightened person ever. If its racism or lovely acting or lovely writing, it was still a lovely scene that can easily be seen as kind of racist regardless of the intentions. notthegoatseguy fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 16:03
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The first friend Danny makes in the real world he leaves to rot in a park. He's just a poo poo-head.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:06
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notthegoatseguy posted:He crashed when he was 14/15. I don't think someone should've forgotten all social and cultural norms just because he was in magical Tibet for a roughly equivalent amount of time. Especially since Kun Lun also had him interact with people who were different than him. Source for his age? He was 11 at the oldest. Do you really think that 10 year olds know jack poo poo about social norms, period? I'm not arguing it's not racist. I'm saying it's a completely stupid and disingenuous to say that "Danny Rand spent nearly half his life in NYC so he should know how to be racially sensitive". That's all I'm arguing. That that was a stupid thing to say.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:09
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He crashed when he was 10. Believing all 10yo billionaires should be, ahem, "woke" sure is a world view all right. Arist posted:The character might not know, but who gives a poo poo, the writers should not be unintentionally putting their character in a position where they sound extremely racist. That scene was definitely not Iron Fist's proudest moment, and yeah, it was kinda racist, but saying it's "extremely" racist makes you sound like an alarmist. Do you believe that not "extremely" racism even exists? If this is what you consider extreme, do you have to make up new words to define even more racist things? Does human language even have the capacity to describe the hyper-racism of something like the Klan?
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Mar 31, 2017 16:12
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lol, okay
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Mar 31, 2017 16:14
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And, again, while I'm not defending the terribly written, acted, and directed scene, Rand's context for what "Chattering monkeys" means is almost certainly based on what it means for people in K'un Lun to call each other chattering monkeys, and not at all the same connotations as calling a non-white person a monkey has in north america. Another really cringeworth moment is when Danny walks into Karate and Kendo dojo of Coleen Wing, an american of Japanese descent, and tells her that she would make more money if she taught Kung Fu lessons. Of course she can be versed in any martial art she wants, but not a single thing about her implies she has any interest in diverging from her Samurai heritage to learn and teach Chinese traditions.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:19
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Snak posted:Source for his age? He was 11 at the oldest. Do you really think that 10 year olds know jack poo poo about social norms, period? I mean yeah, his time in NYC should've shaped him. Especially since there's really no indication his time in Kun Lun stunted him socially. He even talks about how Davos and him would go out and watch women. Besides some very brief flashbacks, he reflects on his time in Kun Lun fondly and even chooses to go back. Finn Jones is 29 and there's really no indication that he's playing a significantly older or younger character than his current age. Take 15 years away and that leaves us with crash at 14. I'm not saying he needs to be racially sensitive, but he probably knows how to behave around minorities especially when he spent 15 with people who weren't of the same skin color or even the same culture. So yeah, that dialogue is racist and clunky. counterfeitsaint posted:That scene was definitely not Iron Fist's proudest moment, and yeah, it was kinda racist, but saying it's "extremely" racist makes you sound like an alarmist. Do you believe that not "extremely" racism even exists? If this is what you consider extreme, do you have to make up new words to define even more racist things? Does human language even have the capacity to describe the hyper-racism of something like the Klan? Okay, it is still racist though. Just because someone isn't dressed up in white robes and a pointy hat doesn't make it any less racist. It just means they aren't violently expressing it.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:24
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Johnnie5 posted:It think the reason I have a different opinion of the series than most of you is that I view the monks of K'un L'un as bad people. good lord you sound like a corny, sad nerd
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Mar 31, 2017 16:26
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Snak posted:Another really cringeworth moment is when Danny walks into Karate and Kendo dojo of Coleen Wing, an american of Japanese descent, and tells her that she would make more money if she taught Kung Fu lessons. Of course she can be versed in any martial art she wants, but not a single thing about her implies she has any interest in diverging from her Samurai heritage to learn and teach Chinese traditions. Danny randomly trying to talk to her in Mandarin ten seconds after meeting her was pretty bad too.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:28
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My biggest problem is the guy who plays Danny has no presence whatsoever. He sounds like a dweeb when he speaks the Naruto lines he's given. I'm sure someone could elevate that garbage but unfortunately he can't.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:32
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Pakled posted:Danny randomly trying to talk to her in Mandarin ten seconds after meeting her was pretty bad too. Yeah. At first I assumed he was using a language that was on her flier, but it turns out her flier was in English.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:34
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Barry Convex posted:lol, you might have a point there Many pages ago but: Luke Cage didn't grow up in the ghetto or an urban environment. Black people grow up in a myriad living situations, urban ghetto aint our default. He's a country southern boy and the son of a pastor, those types definitely go into law enforcement. They tell us that a few times. How he got framed tho is anyone's guess, I'm going with blaxploitation magic.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:47
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notthegoatseguy posted:Finn Jones is 29 and there's really no indication that he's playing a significantly older or younger character than his current age. Take 15 years away and that leaves us with crash at 14. I'm pretty sure they specifically say he was 10 when the plane crashed.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:47
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The entire show is bad once you give it any critical thought, save for Ward's arc. The script is loving atrocious and screams "rushed to get it out before defenders." A few more months of additional pre-production and a serious script revision could've saved it. It's Netflix Marvel, so there'll be a season 2, and hopefully they learn from their mistakes. Finn Jones can be a fine Danny Rand, as long he's given even time to actually train and more than 15 minutes to practice the fight scene and some internal consistency or actual motivation. Jessica Henwick and Rosario Dawson did as well as would be possible with the poo poo writing. Ward is the best part of the show because he was given the best material.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:48
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Danny being 10 when the plane crashed is a plot point that is mentioned many times during the show. White 10yo billionaires are not nearly as 'woke' as one might expect.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:51
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counterfeitsaint posted:Danny being 10 when the plane crashed is a plot point that is mentioned many times during the show. He had plenty of experience socializing while he was home-schooled with two other white billionaires though!
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Mar 31, 2017 16:58
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counterfeitsaint posted:Danny being 10 when the plane crashed is a plot point that is mentioned many times during the show. How many times did you call black people "monkeys" when you were 10? And considering that we are constantly being told that he is "woke" almost from the beginning of the show, yeah, he should act like it.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:59
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If Danny and his friend were the prized defenders of the first city of heaven - why were they always so goddamn dirty?
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Mar 31, 2017 17:03
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Pakled posted:Danny randomly trying to talk to her in Mandarin ten seconds after meeting her was pretty bad too. But her last name is Wing, obviously Mandarin is her fist language. American born Chinese aside, I'm sure there's no Wings who natively speak Cantonese and not Mandarin anyway. notthegoatseguy posted:How many times did you call black people "monkeys" when you were 10? As with many scenes in Iron Fist, it was a lovely scene that was poorly written and not thought out. But it was pretty clearly less a scene about Danny calling a bunch of brown and black kids monkeys and more about Danny tapping into his child abuse training and aping his instructors getting angry at not taking martial arts as seriously as they should. Absolutely a poor choice of the writers and carrying loads of other context that is racist.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:47
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I mean the whole thing comes back to "Danny is a tosser" so maybe being kinda racist just goes with his assholery and the incompetent script writers.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:44
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Many pages ago but: Luke Cage didn't grow up in the ghetto or an urban environment. Black people grow up in a myriad living situations, urban ghetto aint our default. I'm pretty sure when he said "turned from" he was talking about his comics backstory. This is just a small note. edit: I think "chattering monkeys" was an okay character note for Danny, and that it was a missed chance to not have someone call him on it instead of using it to making him look like a cool karate man.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:52
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notthegoatseguy posted:And considering that we are constantly being told that he is "woke" almost from the beginning of the show, yeah, he should act like it. Where on earth are you getting that from?
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Mar 31, 2017 19:01
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counterfeitsaint posted:Where on earth are you getting that from? he seems really confused and trying v hard to hate this show for something thats basically non-existant on the list of terrible things about the show and its pretty funny
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Mar 31, 2017 19:11
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Many pages ago but: Luke Cage didn't grow up in the ghetto or an urban environment. Black people grow up in a myriad living situations, urban ghetto aint our default. That's his comic book origin. Beyond the drastic change in his background from the source material, it was also pretty weird that we learn literally nothing about his pre-incarceration adult life aside from that he was in some form of law enforcement at some point.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:13
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I like how the only scenes from Kun Lun are from when they were hitting Danny with sticks. Maybe the monks weren't so bad after all.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:31
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Snak posted:Another really cringeworth moment is when Danny walks into Karate and Kendo dojo of Coleen Wing, an american of Japanese descent, and tells her that she would make more money if she taught Kung Fu lessons. Of course she can be versed in any martial art she wants, but not a single thing about her implies she has any interest in diverging from her Samurai heritage to learn and teach Chinese traditions. She's Chinese. As was already mentioned, "Wing" is Chinese rather than Japanese, and Danny first gets her attention by speaking Chinese to her. She tells him to stick to English since she only knows a little Chinese from her grandmother or something. Her martial arts training is Japanese Bushido/samurai stuff, which is why she has a sensei rather than a sifu.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:43
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Sorry if this was already posted, but I was away from the thread for about a week and holy poo poo you guys are posting a lot. This I think explains a LOT. Iron Fist’s Finn Jones learned the show’s fight choreography just 15 minutes before a scene quote:So really on my days off, I only had Sunday and half a day on Saturday off, I’d be in the gym and trying to keep up with being flexible and learning martial arts. But really, I was learning the fight scenes 15 minutes before we actually shot them because the schedule was so tight. So 15 minutes before the stunt director would talk me through the choreography and I’d just jump straight into it. It really was a baptism of fire and I just learned on the job and I’ve been doing it for 12 months now. With practise you just get better and better with dealing with that kind of schedule. There's a couple other choice quotes in there, too. Apparently they didn't even give any good run-up training either prior to production. While it only addresses the choreography of the fight scenes, I imagine it's indicative of how much of a tight-fisted asswipe Perlmutter is. He'll gut a production's budget and schedule to save a buck and gently caress the quality.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:52
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homullus posted:She's Chinese. As was already mentioned, "Wing" is Chinese rather than Japanese, and Danny first gets her attention by speaking Chinese to her. She tells him to stick to English since she only knows a little Chinese from her grandmother or something. Her martial arts training is Japanese Bushido/samurai stuff, which is why she has a sensei rather than a sifu. You know, I was confused about this when I watched the show, because "Wing" is a Chinese name. So I looked it up, and guess what? It's just that comic book writers are also racists and just pick vaguely Asian names for stuff, including people. Colleen Wing has been called Colleen Wing and been Japanese since she was created in 1974. edit: spelling is hard. Snak fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 19:54
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Dude spent most of his life in a fantasy chinese temple. Calling people monkeys is probably the go-to insulting comparison there.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:00
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Show is real bad. Two stars on Netflix is still a real stretch. My biggest problem (of many) is that the show just lacks any sort of authenticity and is totally devoid of anything resembling emotional content. It's the least interesting angle for an origin in every respect. Everyone in the show looks like a better fighter than Danny so his victories are unbelievable every time. He gets clowned on by that guy in the hospital, but Ward takes that dude down later on in the apartment? How are you gonna make a martial arts show without involving anyone who gives a poo poo about martial arts? The show has no distinct look or sound, which is a real letdown after Luke Cage's stellar soundtrack, especially. There is zero chemistry between Danny and... anyone. Things just happen with no build up and there's never any payoff. The ending was a total wet fart. Ward was alright though.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:09
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^^^ Ending was way too similar to Iron Man 1. MCU probably just needs to avoid rooftop confrontations from now on. counterfeitsaint posted:Where on earth are you getting that from? Legit didn't know woke had some social justice meaning. Still doesn't make that scene not racist
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Mar 31, 2017 20:10
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Snak posted:You know, I was confused about this when I watched the show, because "Wing" is a Chinese name. So I looked it up, and guess what? It's just that comic book writers are also racists and just pick vaguely Asian names for stuff, including people. Colleen Wing has been called Colleen Wing and been Japanese since she was created in 1974. Since she was trained by her grandfather and all her training is in Japanese stuff, I figured her dad's side of the family is Chinese and her mom's side Japanese. Her parents died and she went to live with her old school Japanese grandfather to learn Karate, Kendo, and Bushido. Or maybe her grandfather is just a real giant weebaboo.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:19
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notthegoatseguy posted:Legit didn't know woke had some social justice meaning. Still doesn't make that scene not racist Really? So you thought we were discussing whether or not he was conscious and not asleep this whole time? Is that the meaning of woke you were thinking of?
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Mar 31, 2017 20:22
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Gyges posted:Since she was trained by her grandfather and all her training is in Japanese stuff, I figured her dad's side of the family is Chinese and her mom's side Japanese. Her parents died and she went to live with her old school Japanese grandfather to learn Karate, Kendo, and Bushido. That sounds accurate. From wikipedia: "Colleen was born in the mountains of Honshu, Japan, to Professor Lee Wing (a teacher of Asian history at Columbia University) and a mother whose ancestors were samurai and daimyo. After her mother's death, Colleen's late maternal grandfather, Kenji Ozawa taught her the ways of the samurai, in which she later became very skilled."
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Mar 31, 2017 20:22
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counterfeitsaint posted:Really? So you thought we were discussing whether or not he was conscious and not asleep this whole time? Is that the meaning of woke you were thinking of? That you were using as another way of saying zen and enlightened, which is something the show is constantly telling us Danny is.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:25
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Saint Freak posted:The first friend Danny makes in the real world he leaves to rot in a park. The show could have made a big deal out of his philantropy and supporting soup kitchens and the homeless of the city. But instead he goes from sleeping in a park with bare feet to a billionaire and never talks about the poor again.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:33
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notthegoatseguy posted:That you were using as another way of saying zen and enlightened, which is something the show is constantly telling us Danny is. I kind of wish I lived in this world, though.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:35
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