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prom candy posted:This is nice to read after all the poo poo you were posting last year about your terrible job Thanks! Honestly the new job (which I guess isn’t all that new anymore since it’s been over a year but who can tell with how hosed the passage of time is during the age of quarantine) is better in just about every single aspect up to and including waaaay better pay. I actually credit this thread and the folks in it for giving me some much needed perspective about how bad and damaging it actually was because I’d been in it too long and couldn’t tell anymore because in the beginning it was great and frog in boiling pot and all that. Finally getting on antidepressants and snapping out of a paralyzing bout of imposter syndrome also helped. I’m still working on unlearning some maladaptive tendencies but it’s way better than before. As for my cool and good team, I took part in interviewing them thanks to the inclusive and transparent interview process we have here. If I’d sensed any red flags or bad vibes from a candidate I have full confidence that the higher ups would have jettisoned said candidate. Very unlike my old job where I was peripherally aware we had an open position and then all of a sudden a new coworker would be dumped on us (in a very small team where it was kind of important that we all meshed). One thing I will add is that I don’t believe that the shittiness of my old job was intentional or malicious. There were significant growing pains and the dev team suffered from mismanagement, management being oblivious to the undercurrents of poo poo and a couple bad hires. But in a small company and a super small team, a couple bad moves like that can completely gently caress things up for everyone.
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 08:05 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 02:24 |
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Speaking of new jobs. A while ago I was reading about the push back on large take homes companies were expecting people to do during the interview process and that companies were starting to address the issue. Well now that I'm looking for a job I'm running into the same large take homes that are different only in them just slapping "please don't spend more than an hour on this task" while still asking the same kind of 4 hour+ task of you. I questioned this with one of them and the response was "we understand that some candidates will go over the hour, but we don't encourage you too". Is this some kind of check to see if I will work unpaid 'optional' overtime for them?
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 13:04 |
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Mega Comrade posted:Speaking of new jobs. A while ago I was reading about the push back on large take homes companies were expecting people to do during the interview process and that companies were starting to address the issue. Well now that I'm looking for a job I'm running into the same large take homes that are different only in them just slapping "please don't spend more than an hour on this task" while still asking the same kind of 4 hour+ task of you. I questioned this with one of them and the response was "we understand that some candidates will go over the hour, but we don't encourage you too". lol i had one of those that was basically "make this full application, front end and back end, it all has to work, have user management, roles and permissions, make the front end look nice" and they said it would take 2-3 hours at most. to get it setup maybe. i had a bit of impostor syndrome kick in but it went away when i realized that no, it wasn't that i'm just not good enough to do it in 3 hours, it's just a gigantic task. in their defense they said you didn't have to do everything (which i didn't believe) and even though i didn't deliver everything (i'm not spending 5 days/multiple hours a day on this) i still passed, to be fair.
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 13:18 |
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Inacio posted:lol i had one of those that was basically "make this full application, front end and back end, it all has to work, have user management, roles and permissions, make the front end look nice" and they said it would take 2-3 hours at most. I had the exact same imposter syndrome until I shared it with a few dev friends who agreed with me it was a 4+ hour task. The bit that threw me off even more was it said "Please take your time too really impress us". Take your time! jfc I'm barely gonna have the thing scaffolded in an hour let alone be impressing anyone with anything. I probably wouldn't have cared so much if it was a one off, but Ive done a few of these in the last 2 weeks and I'm really tired of giving up every evening to them, I think I might just take a break for Christmas and restart my search in January. Maybe I can do some personal projects to stick on my github and ask if they will look at those for assessment instead of making me do these boring take homes that just get chucked in the bin after.
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 13:27 |
Having just gone through an interview improvement process with my team, there's a lot of momentum behind big take-homes. My coworkers wanted interviewees to build a complete argo workflow, tip to tail, that consumed a flask API and performed some transformations on the data. All of this was to be built from scratch. Estimated time was 2-3 hours. I barely stopped short of calling it disrespectful to even consider giving this to anyone we weren't paying and noted that as someone comfortable with all these techs, I'd want at least a whole day for it. It took multiple meetings to cut it down to "give them literally everything and then give them some requirements to modify/extend it". Teammates were very invested in the "everyone else is doing this, and I had to do this, so our interviewees should have to do this" philosophy. Luckily, the in-person interview was a little easier, but yeah if you're not tuned into the current conversation around interviews there's a lot of "well we've always done <algorithm questions/dumb takehomes/etc>"
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 15:47 |
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Huge take-home projects that you have to build from scratch basically amount to spec work. It’s one thing to give a project that actually takes 2-3 hours and then there’s asking the person to build an entire app and merely claim it should only take 2-3 hours. I think my company hit the right balance. I was given a busted little toy app that I had to fix and improve. Seeing if a candidate could find their way around the code and diagnose problems and also write a bit of new code was sufficient to gauge aptitude without wasting many evenings of your life. My boss later told me that it often ended up being a litmus test for whether the candidate was able to code at all without plagiarizing a solution. There were apparently a ton of candidates that looked good enough on paper to get to the take-home test stage but ended up being lying hacks. Test needs to be rewritten (frontend paradigm has changed and we want to evaluate some different skills), but when we get to it it’ll still be the same concept - dumb toy app that’s already built that just needs fixing and tweaking.
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 17:30 |
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Queen Victorian posted:I think my company hit the right balance. I was given a busted little toy app that I had to fix and improve. Seeing if a candidate could find their way around the code and diagnose problems and also write a bit of new code was sufficient to gauge aptitude without wasting many evenings of your life. those are much nicer imo. you build your stuff and break it and see if the candidate can fix it. it's okay if you want them to implement a [small, reasonable] new feature too, especially to see if they can make it fit in with the rest of the architecture
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 17:45 |
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I just want to bitch about some people that are truly helpless. Built a simple web API, has two endpoints. Super simple to use. Put together a word doc on its capabilities, limitations, had example Postman API calls, etc. All the fancy things you’d want to properly consume an API if you were assigned the job. Two weeks go by, someone asks for the info again. I resend the email with all the resources. Today, a week later, they emailed me back. “What values are valid for this parameter of the request?” Gee, I dunno, if only there was a word doc that listed all of the possible values for this parameter that I know is in your inbox... twice!!!
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 17:50 |
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Protocol7 posted:I just want to bitch about some people that are truly helpless. When I get an email like that, the person usually isn't really asking "what values are valid for this parameter?" They're usually really trying to say something such as "I tried to use your api, something doesn't work, I don't know why, and writing a bug report or reproduction steps is effort."
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 19:57 |
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I really really hate doing take home coding projects myself. Almost every single one I've done I felt was pretty unfair, for all the reasons everyone's already said here. But I actually really like giving them out to candidates. I started doing interviews 2 months ago for the first time, and I like to give candidates a project that will actually take 2-3 hours just to see if they can really code. Then we have an interactive interview afterwards where they walk me through it and continue working on it. I found it to be way more effective than asking a candidate to reverse a linked list.
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 22:18 |
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by the way i still prefer take home over asking me to write a stupid algorithm i have to memorize from Cracking the Coding Interview my most recent interview had me do a take home as the first step, then in the subsequent interviews i still had to write [simple, tbf] algorithms live and i rolled my eyes a bit
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 22:29 |
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Same. The idea of take homes is great. Just please respect my time. And giving me some broken code to fix and implement x feature is gonna tell you a lot more than "create a Web api" to which anyone can just follow a guide and pass.
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 22:48 |
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I had a company send me a project that they claimed should take less than 4 hours. I balked at that but thought "I'll give it a try." So I downloaded the template to get started. It was literally just an empty VS project. It didn't even have the default file renamed. They clicked 5 buttons in VS, saved those files, and called it a template. I was so pissed; my email response was not appropriate. And on top of that their instructions were poo poo, and I estimated it at more like 8 - 10 hours. I don't think they understood that anyone with a lick of sense doesn't want to go work for a company that can't even provide a real template with a realistic timeline and spec doc. If they can't even do that right, how hosed is the real deal? And it was for a senior dev spot, like this wasn't an intro position. It ticks me off just remembering it.
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 23:10 |
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downout posted:I had a company send me a project that they claimed should take less than 4 hours. I balked at that but thought "I'll give it a try." So I downloaded the template to get started. It was literally just an empty VS project. It didn't even have the default file renamed. They clicked 5 buttons in VS, saved those files, and called it a template. I was so pissed; my email response was not appropriate. And on top of that their instructions were poo poo, and I estimated it at more like 8 - 10 hours. I don't think they understood that anyone with a lick of sense doesn't want to go work for a company that can't even provide a real template with a realistic timeline and spec doc. If they can't even do that right, how hosed is the real deal? And it was for a senior dev spot, like this wasn't an intro position. Congrats you passed the interview for our manager role! When can you start?
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# ? Dec 10, 2020 23:46 |
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Inacio posted:those are much nicer imo. The bulk of my career has been doing surgery on old busted products, either to fix bugs or add features (often both at once), yet every take home I've done has been some build-a-toy problem. Sometimes it's a problem that's vaguely related to the business, but even then they trivialize the problem space so much that it's effectively unrelated. I say if a company has a code base older than 6 months, "fix/improve this code" sounds a lot better, because at least that's related to the primary coding activities you'll be doing, and frankly, more companies should be evaluating a candidates debugging and analysis capabilities anyway.
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# ? Dec 11, 2020 10:09 |
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My favorite take-home was a task that legitimately took an hour, but because I was really interested in the role I spent an extra two hours figuring out Airflow. It was also a concrete task they had done recently so it was reflective of the work they did. Normally if I click on your take home and you're just asking me to implement some algorithms or it'll take more than an hour or two I'll just not do it -- I'm gainfully employed and your job is probably not interesting enough. I really hate the take-homes that are just three CTCI problems, though, and if you're sending me a Hackerrank link before I've even had a chance to talk to anyone past HR your job better be really loving interesting. I ended up turning down that role because they couldn't afford me -- they're still looking for it almost nine months later so I don't think they can really afford anyone. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Dec 11, 2020 |
# ? Dec 11, 2020 14:41 |
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:It was also a concrete task they had done recently so it was reflective of the work they did. Those are the best interview tests. You can dig in to find out what’s actually needed.
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# ? Dec 11, 2020 17:40 |
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lifg posted:Those are the best interview tests. You can dig in to find out what’s actually needed.
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# ? Dec 12, 2020 02:37 |
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rt4 posted:A couple months ago, I asked the VP of another department if they had a role I could change into and they got me one, effective January 1st Update: VP says my pay is already in line with the rest of the department, but here's a $3k raise anyway
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# ? Dec 12, 2020 14:42 |
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rt4 posted:Update: VP says my pay is already in line with the rest of the department, but here's a $3k raise anyway "we're underpaying the entire department, here's 3k to get over it!" just take the money and find something new for 30k more in ~6 months.
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# ? Dec 12, 2020 15:47 |
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There's a ton to learn in this new role. I'll take the time to learn that stuff and then into the figgiesphere. The scale of pay has got to be why I'm the only US American in this department.
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# ? Dec 12, 2020 16:55 |
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rt4 posted:Update: VP says my pay is already in line with the rest of the department, but here's a $3k raise anyway if you get a 3k raise outside of normal review time apropos of nothing but asking questions you're probably >20k undervalued.
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# ? Dec 12, 2020 18:37 |
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Something interesting came up in the Corporate thread:Space Gopher posted:There is a way to contain Agile to what it's good at. I'm bored and going to do a less cynical than normal effort post.
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# ? Dec 17, 2020 14:42 |
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Is it bad that I read the description of chaotic problems and immediately thought “ah, yes, that sounds like agile”
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# ? Dec 17, 2020 15:53 |
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ultrafilter posted:Something interesting came up in the Corporate thread: That's pretty interesting, I need to save this.
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# ? Dec 17, 2020 17:07 |
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That sounds a bit like the Pioneers, Settlers, Town Planners model. It’s the idea that there are different types of teams for different needs, whether you’re exploring unknown territory with big risks, turning a crazy prototype into working software, or scaling and industrializing that software.
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# ? Dec 18, 2020 00:13 |
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ultrafilter posted:Something interesting came up in the Corporate thread: great find!
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# ? Dec 18, 2020 00:29 |
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Ah, the joys of Christmas week, where I don’t have any meetings scheduled but it’s impossible to get any changes code reviewed because there aren’t enough teammates working.
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# ? Dec 21, 2020 15:03 |
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Thank god for the SA forums
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# ? Dec 21, 2020 15:20 |
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Idk why we can't all just declare these two weeks a holiday. Well ... I know why but I guess I can wish
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# ? Dec 21, 2020 15:48 |
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Look at all of you complaining that you have to check your email and then do absolutely nothing afterwards for two weeks while being paid for it.
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# ? Dec 21, 2020 15:59 |
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I ain’t complaining. Hell yeah, short week!
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# ? Dec 21, 2020 16:05 |
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Volmarias posted:Look at all of you complaining that you have to check your email and then do absolutely nothing afterwards for two weeks while being paid for it. While working from home.
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# ? Dec 21, 2020 16:50 |
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lifg posted:While working from home. Without pants
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# ? Dec 21, 2020 17:21 |
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This is my favorite week to work because I can get a lot done without meetings interrupting me.
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# ? Dec 21, 2020 17:28 |
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Trip report: it was a very productive two weeks although my list of unmerged outstanding PRs got out of hand and I had to work on some side project by the end of it. This was the worst year by far for end of year time off. I was literally the only person working last week on my eight person team. Did anyone’s employers do a better job of managing this?
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# ? Jan 3, 2021 17:42 |
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smackfu posted:Trip report: it was a very productive two weeks although my list of unmerged outstanding PRs got out of hand and I had to work on some side project by the end of it.
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# ? Jan 3, 2021 17:49 |
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smackfu posted:This was the worst year by far for end of year time off. I was literally the only person working last week on my eight person team. Did anyone’s employers do a better job of managing this? Sounds like all of your coworkers did a better job of managing themselves
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# ? Jan 3, 2021 19:03 |
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Yeah where I work we had holidays for most of the week and everyone used time off to get the remaining two days off.
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# ? Jan 3, 2021 19:12 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 02:24 |
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My work shut down for the holidays and just asked us to keep an eye on Slack in case of any emergencies. I think the two founders kept things running.
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# ? Jan 3, 2021 19:32 |