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Xarn posted:What makes him better than one of the ~3 strays I regularly meet on my evening walks? Other then conspicuous consumption in getting there and some insane bullshit about expanding your own mind? I mean, I would tell you to get a cat and take care of it, but if you did I would feel sorry for the cat. Right, I recognize that, like almost all humans he can't be trusted to make sane choices vis-a-vis personal consumption, ergo we are going to have to remove his opportunity to make that choice. It'll happen eventually anyway due to fuel constraints (lmao synthfuel, gtfo whoever brought that up a while ago, you thermodynamics-ignoring waste), but we will get our poo poo together as a species and control our hubris about going fast, or we will suffer the full consequences. Ditto meat every day and the endless litany of plastic useless poo poo, rural electricity, a whole bunch of stuff that people like is not going to be sticking around. Probably within the lifetime of the average goon we'll see real panic, and violent replacement of current governments with ecofascist movements. Car Hater fucked around with this message at 11:39 on May 12, 2018 |
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May 12, 2018 11:33
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Car Hater posted:They won't, because planes will be banned. Only in the fictional nation of Car Haterstan. You will also need to build a huge wall to prevent people from just running away to other, saner lands.
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May 12, 2018 11:40
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Libluini posted:Only in the fictional nation of Car Haterstan. You will also need to build a huge wall to prevent people from just running away to other, saner lands. The walls will be built to prevent people from migrating to where the fresh water is.
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May 12, 2018 11:42
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Car Hater posted:The walls will be built to prevent people from migrating to where the fresh water is. Well, I feel I should point out at this point a nation with a population of 1 versus 7+ billion will have a hard time achieving this lofty goal
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May 12, 2018 11:47
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Libluini posted:Well, I feel I should point out at this point a nation with a population of 1 versus 7+ billion will have a hard time achieving this lofty goal I feel I should point out that I'm not going to do poo poo to achieve any of this beyond harassing local politicians, I'm just spitballing on what I think humans will really do this century. Obviously I disagree with the "rising GDP and access to energy for the whole world" narrative, since the whole Arctic meltdown fiasco is already causing problems with crops and EROEI on oil is falling without a nuclear supergrid already in place to shoulder the burden of supplying equivalent energy to our current dirty system. Idk, what do you think the typical response to mass migration away from the equator will be? Car Hater fucked around with this message at 12:33 on May 12, 2018 |
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May 12, 2018 12:08
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Death
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May 12, 2018 12:37
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Minge Binge posted:Death
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May 12, 2018 16:38
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Cool
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May 12, 2018 16:48
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Xarn posted:is his literal position from this thread. If things should ever get less comfortable for him, civilization failed and should be destroyed via climate change. I am playing up the silliest aspect of travel, with a purely non-economically valuable trip with a stated reason that is clearly as silly as possible. But the overall infrastructure of travel is one of the most important achievements of the modern world and it's not nearly accessible ENOUGH as it still excludes much of the world. Claims that it's gone too far and needs to be pulled back are awful and absurd and absolutely would be a massive regression in human society. Saying civilization "should" be destroyed if they can't maintain the infrastructure that allows people access to travel is too prescriptive, but I do think a set of solutions that rely on it are just nonsense that both won't ever happen ever and aren't even desirable to happen. And if that sort of massive regression is the actual only thing that could save the world then it seems like that is basically equivalent to "the world can't be saved".
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May 12, 2018 17:04
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I noticed a lot of clueless dummies like creamcheese will tirelessly defend any technology that suits their personal desires. It is such a stupid allocation of resources and source of emissions to provide cheap air travel. There's a million other ways to expand our society culturally, technologically, and economically than dumping a bunch of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Imagine how well your city could flourish if you diverted air travel capital + the cost of externalties into arts, education, community organizations. But nope, lets keep suburbia and $300 tickets to Puerto Vallarta so you can explore the wonders of all-you-can-eat buffets, sea-doos, and tan lines. Oh, and pictures of cats. I used to travel a lot. and it didn't make me a better person. In fact, my yearly need to go on these foreign vacations to fullfill some bizarre desire to experience strange and different things probably made me worse off. I only became a better person by becoming involved with my local community.
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May 12, 2018 17:25
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Minge Binge posted:I noticed a lot of clueless dummies like creamcheese will tirelessly defend any technology that suits their personal desires. I like that the structure of this post is you complaining people support things they personally like then the rest of this post is saying they should take money out of a thing you personally didn't enjoy and have it put into the thing you say you do personally enjoy.
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May 12, 2018 17:36
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I like that the structure of this post is you complaining people support things they personally like then the rest of this post is saying they should take money out of a thing you personally didn't enjoy and have it put into the thing you say you do personally enjoy. He's calling out your self-absorbed belief of cheap long-distance travel being the absolute metric of the worth of human civilization.
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May 12, 2018 17:42
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Conspiratiorist posted:He's calling out your self-absorbed belief of cheap long-distance travel being the absolute metric of human civilization. If you found out the sumerians had a network of long distance travel and then later lost it you'd absolutely view that as a huge regression of their civilization. The travel network we have is a huge achievement and also far too primitive by the fact it's so inaccessible as it is now.
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May 12, 2018 17:46
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:If you found out the sumerians had a network of long distance travel and then later lost it you'd absolutely view that as a huge regression of their civilization. The travel network we have is a huge achievement and also far too primitive by the fact it's so inaccessible as it is now. Yes, and?
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May 12, 2018 17:47
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Guys, it's probably not psychologically healthy to project all your anxieties about the climate onto a computer programmer who takes one or two long-haul flights a year.
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May 12, 2018 17:48
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I like that the structure of this post is you complaining people support things they personally like then the rest of this post is saying they should take money out of a thing you personally didn't enjoy and have it put into the thing you say you do personally enjoy. you dumbass. I loved travelling. But it was an absolutely decadent hobby that I know realize was destroying our world. I didn't gain anything from it other than those fleeting moments of stimulation, smug satisfaction of being "well traveled", and dating profile fodder. Now that I focus on my local community I can develop long-lasting and meaningful relationships, all without having to burn up 100kg of kerosene.
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May 12, 2018 17:52
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Thug Lessons posted:Guys, it's probably not psychologically healthy to project all your anxieties about the climate onto a computer programmer who takes one or two long-haul flights a year.
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May 12, 2018 17:56
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Ahh yes the classic "u mad?" Nobody is projecting anxieties an idiot is saying stupid things and being called out for it. Welcome to SA enjoy your stay
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May 12, 2018 17:59
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Minge Binge posted:I noticed a lot of clueless dummies like creamcheese will tirelessly defend any technology that suits their personal desires. Sadly, we aren't all your xeroxed copies, so what worked for you doesn't work for everyone. Not everyone will instantly become a better person just by being involved in their local community. Also your logic about cheap air travel is really bad, I think I really shouldn't have to point out that all those resources spend on travel can't just be magically be converted into arts, education and community organizations. That is because all those corporations in control of those resources have no reasons to invest in those things, as they are meta-constructs purely made for profit generation. If from one day to the other air travel is banned, those corporations would crash and burn, and all that money would be burned and wasted, too. In a funny way, your argument resembles those who are against any kind of scientific endeavor, like space exploration: Instead of realizing that tons of money could be shifted from the military-industrial complex without negatively impacting other parts of the economy, they think the money for things like space exploration is somehow directly drained out of the poor. Like space exploration is some kind of metaphysical vampire. They also think that deleting space exploration would magically transport the spend money and resources back into the poor orphanages it was drained out of. In short, your thinking about how economics works is shockingly naive.
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May 12, 2018 17:59
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Oh now we're pretending like he was implying magic would be used instead of applying the reductions in air travel emissions to existing carbon budgets. Truly it's simply misunderstood basic principals of govenrment funding and not you being a giant baby because someone hurt your feelings by letting you know your personal beliefs and activities are harmful to society Good Lord the knee jerk technology defenders could at least try a little harder. You know the rope is getting short when they've evolved to"maybe you guys should just be less mean" posts being made in earnest 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 18:06 on May 12, 2018 |
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May 12, 2018 18:03
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self unaware posted:Ahh yes the classic "u mad?" No, people here definite have an unhealthy investment in OOCC. Over the past few months there's been more posts made about his personal flying habits than any other single topic.
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May 12, 2018 18:06
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Thug Lessons posted:No, people here definite have an unhealthy investment in OOCC. Over the past few months there's been more posts made about his personal flying habits than any other single topic. It's almost as if he brings it up at every chance possible and uses his own personal "quest for white person meaning" as the basis for why we can't possibly disincentivize air travel People have an unhealthy investment in you too It's because youre a bad opinion machine thAt doesn't turn off, much like oooc (in all honesty you're a way better poster and i can respect you actually have some understanding) 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 18:09 on May 12, 2018 |
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May 12, 2018 18:06
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Libluini posted:Sadly, we aren't all your xeroxed copies, so what worked for you doesn't work for everyone. Not everyone will instantly become a better person just by being involved in their local community. Also your logic about cheap air travel is really bad, I think I really shouldn't have to point out that all those resources spend on travel can't just be magically be converted into arts, education and community organizations. That is because all those corporations in control of those resources have no reasons to invest in those things, as they are meta-constructs purely made for profit generation. I'm sorry for not outlining the exact method how to divert resources from air travel into an arts program. Like, I'm not suggesting we convert a fuesalage into a bouncy castle here. But there's ways, you know, to uhhh, stop doing something and do something else. You might need some sort of organized economic structure though. something.... like...... COMMUNISM
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May 12, 2018 18:06
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Thug Lessons posted:No, people here definite have an unhealthy investment in OOCC. Over the past few months there's been more posts made about his personal flying habits than any other single topic. Yes, honestly, we should stop criticizing one of the biggest contributors of climate change so OOCC would stop posting.
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May 12, 2018 18:10
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Minge Binge posted:I used to travel a lot. and it didn't make me a better person. In fact, my yearly need to go on these foreign vacations to fullfill some bizarre desire to experience strange and different things probably made me worse off. I only became a better person by becoming involved with my local community. I don’t know if this is a us thing but at no point in my life have I experienced anything akin to a “local community”. I have lived in big cities all my life and I never had neighbors come to visit other than the odd request for eggs or something, never seen any local events, nothing. Is the climate apocalypse supposed to bring people together for survival? Because all I anticipate is even more tribalism and violence to thos who are different. I have no tribe, no one has ever invited me to join their tribe, I have no idea how to create a tribe (and all those things are even compounded by the fact that I currently live in a country in which I was not born and I probably could not fit in back home if I tried) What hope is there for shut ins like me?
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May 12, 2018 18:13
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It just goes to show you. It's ok for someone like TL to make pro 4c posts because it's required for the survival of the third world. I can disagree but at least the motives are good. Saying we need to live in a 4c world because without cheap international travel we'd lose the ability for upper class white people to find themselves is disgusting.
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May 12, 2018 18:13
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Minge Binge posted:Yes, honestly, we should stop criticizing one of the biggest contributors of climate change so OOCC would stop posting. OOCC isn't one of the biggest contributors of climate change. You guys are just trying to turn him into a symbol of one in lieu of discussing the underlying issues.
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May 12, 2018 18:14
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I am playing up the silliest aspect of travel, with a purely non-economically valuable trip with a stated reason that is clearly as silly as possible.
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May 12, 2018 18:15
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Thug Lessons posted:OOCC isn't one of the biggest contributors of climate change. You guys are just trying to turn him into a symbol of one in lieu of discussing the underlying issues. I meant air travel in general. OOCC isn't exceptional or anything. He just represents the typical persons obsession with air travel
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May 12, 2018 18:18
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AceOfFlames posted:I don’t know if this is a us thing but at no point in my life have I experienced anything akin to a “local community”. I have lived in big cities all my life and I never had neighbors come to visit other than the odd request for eggs or something, never seen any local events, nothing. Is the climate apocalypse supposed to bring people together for survival? Because all I anticipate is even more tribalism and violence to thos who are different. I have no tribe, no one has ever invited me to join their tribe, I have no idea how to create a tribe (and all those things are even compounded by the fact that I currently live in a country in which I was not born and I probably could not fit in back home if I tried) What hope is there for shut ins like me? Well, that's the problem. There are a lot of forces that dismantle communities. So you may have to make a serious effort to be a part of one, or build one yourself.
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May 12, 2018 18:21
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I myself visit my home country twice a year and don’t do vacations alone. While I agree air travel is part of the problem I do think there are a lot of issues with banning it entirely.
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May 12, 2018 18:21
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Minge Binge posted:you dumbass. I loved travelling. But it was an absolutely decadent hobby that I know realize was destroying our world. I didn't gain anything from it other than those fleeting moments of stimulation, smug satisfaction of being "well traveled", and dating profile fodder. Now that I focus on my local community I can develop long-lasting and meaningful relationships, all without having to burn up 100kg of kerosene. So you gave up something you "loved" to what? reduce your carbon footprint from 22-25 tons a carbon a year to 20-22 tons of carbon a year for a couple years of your life? Thank you for your sacrifice but you gotta understand how absolutely not the solution that is and how pointless and symbolic only that sacrifice is. There is no path to global fixing environmental problems that run through you making cute little feel good changes to your consumer choices. They are stupid and pointless and don't help anyone. Even dictators declaring everyone has to make major non voluntary changes only works until someone somewhere else decides to not do that. The only workable solution is to find meaningful better ways to do that, either better technology or better alternatives to the things people do. Anything else is just jerking off to feel better. If no technology or alternatives exist then it may turn out the world in't like a mario level where bowser always left a path forward because it's a game. but you should not fool yourself into thinking you are some great hero that is saving the world by not taking vacations. The world is gonna keep making people and whatever 10 tons of carbon you don't release is going to get released a meaningless amount of time into the future as long as that kerosene exists and someone wants to burn it. And solutions that don't include making something better in one way or another than that kerosene are pointless to discuss and just serve to make people feel better about a possibly hopeless situation and misdirect effort towards moralistic false solutions.
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May 12, 2018 18:23
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:So you gave up something you "loved" to what? reduce your carbon footprint from 22-25 tons a carbon a year to 20-22 tons of carbon a year for a couple years of your life? Thank you for your sacrifice but you gotta understand how absolutely not the solution that is and how pointless and symbolic only that sacrifice is. uhhh. okay man. it's all good. i give you permission to fly now.
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May 12, 2018 18:28
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We’d eliminate a lot of airline travel if we had decent railroads in the USA. I know I sound like a broken record, but california’s Plan is the stupidest rail plan I have seen. It’s all patronage and doesn’t go where people actually want to travel to. We have an existing route that runs from San Diego to LA to Santa Barbara to San Jose, eliminate at grade crossings, fix the roadbed and electrify. Even a 5 hour ride from LA to San Jose is preferable to flying (hours wasted on check in etc. )
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May 12, 2018 18:28
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Minge Binge posted:I'm sorry for not outlining the exact method how to divert resources from air travel into an arts program. Like, I'm not suggesting we convert a fuesalage into a bouncy castle here. But there's ways, you know, to uhhh, stop doing something and do something else. You might need some sort of organized economic structure though. something.... like...... COMMUNISM It's less then I'm demanding that you come up with exact methods of economic change, but more that I'm mocking you for starting with "I noticed a lot of clueless dummies like creamcheese will tirelessly defend any technology that suits their personal desires." and then cluelessly defending your own personal desire right after. And don't try to waffle on this, right in this new post you show you don't have an idea how what you want could be implemented, so how are your desires any different from the other guys defending their own beloved crap?
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May 12, 2018 18:33
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Hint: the carbon output of said activities
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May 12, 2018 18:36
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Thought experiment: replace all instances of "air travel" itt with "coal rolling".
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May 12, 2018 18:43
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Minge Binge posted:uhhh. okay man. it's all good. i give you permission to fly now. Like please understand that your sacrifice of something you "loved" is not meaningful or helpful or useful in any way and simply is to make you feel distracted from a real and serious problem that needs a real and serious solution (that may or may not be possible). There is not going to be a solution of climate change that comes from you chipping a couple percent off your carbon footprint, even solutions where you cut your carbon footprint by half or something through deep cuts in lifestyle don't really shift the dates of various limits being reached by very much time. Only solutions that shift humans away from carbon releasing technologies entirely matter, and do so in a way that replaces them so it's not just a matter of someone else just not following the proscribed austerity program, and we don't actually know if those exist or not at this point. And that is scary and does make people want to implement pretend feel good stuff like pretending that if they don't see paris and reduce their lifetime CO2 output by .5% that they have saved the day, but it's important to not let comforting lies get confused for real things that really mean anything.
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May 12, 2018 18:49
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self unaware posted:Hint: the carbon output of said activities Sorry, but if I have to decide between a totally unworkable dream idea like DEATH TO ALL AIRTRAVEL and that dumb Icelandic machine to turn CO2 into Lego blocks, I'd rather have the dumb, unscalable machine instead, thank you very much. Since that thing at least exists and all
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May 12, 2018 18:49
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Conspiratiorist posted:Thought experiment: replace all instances of "air travel" itt with "coal rolling". Sure, coal rolling is a visible and symbolic act but working to reduce it would have only infinitesimal effects on global pollution and only changes to the fundamental underlying structure of how the trucks themselves fundamentally work would have any real actual meaning to the real actual environment. So it's a pretty good analogy. Like you shouldn't coal roll because it locally makes a mess and looks/smells bad but on a global scale only fixing the fact trucks still run on fossil fuels will fix anything while stopping coal rolling will just feel good at stopping something symbolically.
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May 12, 2018 18:58
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