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Lord_Magmar posted:They’re doing so out of a desperate desire to rest the world to exactly how it was before the Final Days. They fell into the trap that they can have anything they want, or think they can, Utopia is always just another mass human sacrifice away. And it always would be. They would find something else to throw people into the maw of their god for. It was never going to end.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:47
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Lord_Magmar posted:Also, they’re not trying to free the people in Zodiark because it’s the right thing to do (which considering the focus on duty I don’t necessarily think it is, eventually freeing the people who make up Zodiark yes, doing it as fast as possible instead of accepting and respecting their decision to make powering Zodiark their duty no). They’re doing so out of a desperate desire to rest the world to exactly how it was before the Final Days. They’re literally devaluing the sacrifice itself by trying to walk it back, instead of finding a way forward that makes the sacrifice no longer needed to be maintained. I mean, how the Hythlodaeus shade describes it, the third stage of the plan does sound like it was meant to be done gradually - that the surviving Ancients would "nurture" the new life until the planet was "bursting with vitality", after which point they would trade a "portion" of it to Zodiark for their loved ones' souls. And again, mileage may vary, but a quick vague montage with two lines meant to fit in with the Themes doesn't really work enough to convince me this civilization and these peoples' existence needs to get wiped out before they even truly Commit a Crime - at that stage, they're just having thought-crimes according to Venat's ideology - especially when we can say very certainly that Emet was desperate to specifically save the people he loved out of, well, love.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:49
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Like since it came up, so remember that Tempering is specifically the process of a Primal corrupting your Aether towards their elemental alignment which leaves you susceptible to their mindset. The way that the Primals summoned by the Beast Tribes differ from Zodiark is not the capability to cause tempering (as any form of aether manipulation could be used to cause tempering if you used it to mess a person’s aether up). It’s that the method the Ascians taught for primal suffering included a requirement of zealotry to make others follow your god, which means the primal is born with a desire to claim more followers and so tempers their summoners immediately.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:50
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Raelle posted:I mean, how the Hythlodaeus shade describes it, the third stage of the plan does sound like it was meant to be done gradually - that the surviving Ancients would "nurture" the new life until the planet was "bursting with vitality", after which point they would trade a "portion" of it to Zodiark for their loved ones' souls. That still has the step of sacrifice more stuff to Zodiark so Zodiark will solve our problems. If the third step was rebuild the Star until Zodiark is no longer needed and then dismantle Zodiark, instead of rebuild the Star until we have enough stuff to sacrifice to Zodiark to get what we want, then the plan would be fine. Any plan that keeps Zodiark around as a miracle for blood sacrifice machine is a plan that is not acceptable to Venat and her crew is my thinking, and follows the themes of the expansion. Building up the world simply to sacrifice any amount of it to Zodiark is a total betrayal of the ideals and self-appointed mission of the Ancients. Who value their ability to guide and nurture the Star so highly they willingly die when they feel like they’ve done their duty to the star. The people in Zodiark are choosing their situation as a duty to perform for the Star, they would not want the Star sacrificed to save them. In fact when we get a look inside Zodiark at those people all they talk about is being the martyr, the saviour, protecting the Star as Fandaniel silenced them for his own desire to destroy it all. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 19:52
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MechaX posted:I was fully expecting him to pull a “nothin personal kid” and just teleport-kill her or throw the scythe but he just… doesn’t. He just lets the scene play out (probably thinking it was cringe as gently caress because I mean, it’s Zenos), and I was really surprised by that I was absolutely certain he was going to eat her, even through the fight I was sure he was gonna become phase 3 or whatever. Pleasantly surprised he was just a pretty good solo trial at the end.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:53
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TGLT posted:Emet seems pretty clear that he's had enough of Meteion's report, that all he intends to do is take her back to Amaurot and recall her sisters. He tells her to stop talking then gets annoyed when she keeps going. Also I've done the Elpis's side quests and I think the only time we see another group of Amaurotines grapple with tragedy the way Hermes does is the flower ceremony after a few of their experiments get cut short. We even get a sort of repeat of Hermes tackling other Fandaniel choosing to die, and that person sort of just shrugs at the person who's fretting over them. I mean again, one of them tells you to let yourself die to preserve his experiments after charging you with a quest. Paired with their willingness to toss all their creations into Zodiark's mouth I think it's a fair reading. Venat is the one who initially tells Meteion to stop the report. And then all Emet says is that they're taking her to Amaurot. Both of which I think are very reasonable, although I will happily concede that Emet could work on his communication skills. And they were right - letting Meteion finish synthesizing her report allowed her to reach that conclusion that Life Is Meaningless, Time To Die. Did you do the Elpis sidequest where you can actually call someone out for being too dismissive of 'flawed' creations, and they instantly say that you're right and they're glad you offered your perspective and will think things over from that angle from now on? Or the stuff exploring the faction that pointedly doesn't cultivate life with creation magic, but does it 'our' way, through organic cross-breeding, embracing the unexpected but wonderful 'flaws' that come about as a result? Yes, a bunch of Ancients think they're weirdoes, but they're still allowed to operate, spread their findings, and believe in it passionately. Gridania seems strange to me as a counterpart to the Ancients, because a lot of their material is also deciding that life the Elementals don't approve of can go gently caress itself, including the Ala Mhigan refugees. And there's still Ul'dah, Limsa, and every other society out there, happy to farm and cull away. Hell, Sharlayan is doing the same thing, and you're largely helping them, in the plot of Endwalker - making the decisions about what is going to make the cut onto their moon ark, up to and including the sapient races, with the strong implication that the tribes are poo poo out of luck. I don't think it's plausible to put forth the the Sundered are in any way superior to the Unsundered when it comes to how they extract and pick and choose resources among living beings. It's an imperfection that's inherent to living, period - and Hermes could not deal with it in a healthy way. Raelle fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 19:54
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Lord_Magmar posted:That still has the step of sacrifice more stuff to Zodiark so Zodiark will solve our problems. If the third step was rebuild the Star until Zodiark is no longer needed and then dismantle Zodiark, instead of rebuild the Star until we have enough stuff to sacrifice to Zodiark to get what we want, then the plan would be fine. Any plan that keeps Zodiark around as a miracle for blood sacrifice machine is a plan that is not acceptable to Venat and her crew is my thinking, and follows the themes of the expansion. And my quibble is that because they didn't have the chance to even attempt the final stage of the initial plan, we don't know if they would have gotten to their stage, and prematurely cutting them off because we're guessing that they wouldn't have based on their raw grief is incredibly messed up. Especially since a lot of why they're pinning all their hopes of Zodiark is because they do not know, and have no way of knowing, the true cause of the Final Days unless Venat tells them, which she chose not to. Again, I get the intended sentiment and the themes. I do not think the events written into the story that those themes are meant to apply to follow very well. It might come down to a fundamental 'agree to disagree' when it comes to perspective and values, but at least as far as getting the souls out, if there was an option to swap a bunch of plant and animal aether to make sure Hythlodaeus could return to the star, it's not even a choice to me. The idea that we should just leave those people to their fates, denying them the chance to reincarnate and return to the star they love, because, something vague about 'respecting' them and their 'duty', is just not something I can remotely track with. This is pre-Sundering, of course. Post-Sundering Emet has become twisted enough that the plan has become a lot more dire.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:58
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They willingly joined Zodiark so those plants and animals could live and grow and prosper. Sacrificing them to get back the Ancients is in fact the opposite of what those who went into Zodiark want, and I’m specifically stating that the plan to get the souls back out of Zodiark, instead of a plan to fix the world enough that Zodiark is no longer necessary at all, is enough of a sign that they’re going to use Zodiark as a miracle machine. Any plan that involves more sacrifice to Zodiark is an inherently flawed one because it involves sacrificing to Zodiark, not whatever goal it ends up at being good or bad. Especially because Zodiark isn’t a permanent requirement, he’s a bulwark until a solution can be found. Getting Hythlodaeus out immediately by going to ball that life you sacrificed yourself for, I decided was less important than you, is not okay. Like, Hythlodaeus willingly sacrificed himself as part of the second sacrifice, the one that would rebirth life on the planet, because he wanted to rebirth life on the planet. Turning around and sacrificing that life so he can come back, instead of creating a scenario where he can return because Zodiark is no longer needed, is not what he would want. We see inside the soul conglomerate of Zodiark and those inside do not want to be freed, they want to be rejoined so they can continue to protect the planet and do their duty. It can be assumed once their duty is done they will happily return to the planet as is Ancient custom. Returning them before their duty is done is not right. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 20:02
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When we had maintenance I DCed during this cutscene with this line onscreen and it started autoplaying from this line as soon as I got back in the next day which felt very fitting.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:04
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It means literally putting other souls in the Pain Box to power Zodiark, potentially forever. That's a rank betrayal of Ancient ideals.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:04
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Raelle posted:Venat is the one who initially tells Meteion to stop the report. And then all Emet says is that they're taking her to Amaurot. Both of which I think are very reasonable, although I will happily concede that Emet could work on his communication skills. And they were right - letting Meteion finish synthesizing her report allowed her to reach that conclusion that Life Is Meaningless, Time To Die. You're right, I got it mixed up that Venat is the one that tells her to stop and Emet complains when she doesn't. And I don't think what they did was right - we get the flashback to Hermes very nakedly reiterating the game's thesis statement about needing to face painful truths. I think Hermes was wrong to then run away with Meteion and basically luxuriate in the misery, but I think the other ancients wanting to stop Meteion's reporting and just call her sisters back is representative of a mistake as well. The ancients needed to hear Meteion out and they needed to help their creation work through her newfound trauma in a lore sense, and in a metaphorical sense they needed to grapple with the ugly truth she represented. Also I have a clear map so yes I've probably done those side quests. Do you remember their specific names? I've screen capped some of them but not all of them. As for evolution island, yeah they're interested in trying to find things they wouldn't think of doing but they will still ultimately subject them to the same trials and presumably treat them the same way they treat every other life they create. I remember them framing it not as an embrace of flaws but rather of acknowledging they weren't always able of predicting what exactly was needed. It's a bright spot! But like you said a marginalized ideology. They should have been given a chance to explore that, maybe Amaurot could have been saved, but that's really neither here nor there when they're planning to start chunking people down for sweet sweet Zodiark juice. As for Gridania, yeah the Elementals loving suck but I was bringing them up because there's a constant undercurrent of respect for nature - other lives - that I think makes for a good contrast to how most the people in Elpis approach the life they've created. Yeah lots of the rest of Eorzea suck when it comes to respecting life as well! I'm not saying the Amaurotines should have died or they were inherently inferior, I'm saying their philosophical leanings all but guaranteed they would eventually succumb to Meteion's song. Their society's governing philosophy did not really value life in a way that would let them avoid terminal nihilism, and when faced with their first brush with existential dread they chose to double down harder on that. edit: To pursue a nebulous perfection, regardless of who has to be discarded because they don't fit into it. TGLT fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 20:08
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Jetrauben posted:It means literally putting other souls in the Pain Box to power Zodiark, potentially forever. That's a rank betrayal of Ancient ideals. Also they use Ancient Souls because nothing else would be strong enough I suspect. It took sacrificing half their entire population to make Zodiark. Then another half to repair the planet, I sincerely doubt any amount of Aether would be enough to replace the Ancients inside him. Who again knowingly sacrificed the self to Zodiark as part of their duty to protect, nurture, and steward the planet. Being inside Zodiark may not be pleasant, but every single one of them knew going in they would not return to the planet, not until Zodiark himself has done his duty. As for Meteion I’m gonna say the damage is already done. It’s implied that the rest of her sisters were constantly accessing the Hive Mind, in fact that’s part of the problem because they collectively started broadcasting each others emotional mimicry of dying worlds. Meteion herself isn’t deciding anything, she’s relaying the decision of the hive mind, and once done is sharing a declaration about Eitherys being their target, which might be the thing she specifically added to the Hive Mind. The fact she’s the only individual seems pretty clear by how she ends up trying to convince her sisters to stop right before the final trial. Edit: Upon further thought, Hydaelyn/Venat’s passing is the example to use. She sacrificed her own ability to rejoin the Star so as to perform a godlike duty, same as those who became Zodiark, I dunno if other Ancients joined her to make Hydaelyn but I imagine they did, and Venat simply functions like Elidibus but with a smaller collection of Ancient Souls. In any case, Hydaelyn once her duty is done dies happy and the Ancients who make her up return to the Star. Zodiark should have been the same deal, he lives until his duty is finished, dies happy, and the souls that make him up return to the Star, he doesn’t need to be an endless existence or a miracles for blood machine, and in fact the latter is pretty much the sort of thing Meteion encountered, societies becoming desthseekers for a myriad of reasons destroying entire worlds. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 20:08
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Jetrauben posted:It means literally putting other souls in the Pain Box to power Zodiark, potentially forever. That's a rank betrayal of Ancient ideals. Again, we don't know that. What Zodiark needs is aether - he's a primal, and primals can be summoned using crystals of aether alone. Ancient souls were the huge and immediate bundle of aether that they needed for the initial summoning because they needed it to happen RIGHT NOW to stop the apocalypse. But the soulless creations of the Ancients - indeed, basically everything in the world, according to lore - is made of aether. If they had been able to gradually swap that out for the souls, once again, to me, that's not even a choice. You do it as soon as possible, even if you come to the 'ideal' answer of Zodiark needing to stick around as a temporary measure until they come up with a more permanent solution. And saying "they probably" and "I suspect" and "eventually would have" isn't good enough for me when it comes to either a) leaving 75% of the Ancient civilization in a purgatory that goes straight against their beliefs about a meaningful death, and b) wiping them out and ending their civilization. Execution, not premise.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:14
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You do know that the Venat scene wasn't literal and she didn't just walk in hear them say "i love zodiark" and decided to sunder, right?
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Dec 13, 2021 20:15
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TGLT posted:You're right, I got it mixed up that Venat is the one that tells her to stop and Emet complains when she doesn't. And I don't think what they did was right - we get the flashback to Hermes very nakedly reiterating the game's thesis statement about needing to face painful truths. I think Hermes was wrong to then run away with Meteion and basically luxuriate in the misery, but I think the other ancients wanting to stop Meteion's reporting and just call her sisters back is representative of a mistake as well. The ancients needed to hear Meteion out and they needed to help their creation work through her newfound trauma in a lore sense, and in a metaphorical sense they needed to grapple with the ugly truth she represented. Except that, again, there's lots of even orthodox Ancients whom you converse with who express a strong amount of empathy and care for you. The baseline Ancient position is not "gently caress other life," it's "all life is precious and good, and we value even a 'mere' familiar - a semi-extension of its creator designed for a specific task - enough to ask their opinion, reward them for help, and care for their well-being as a full person." It's really mostly the trauma that fucks up Ancient society they decide to start hammering the Zodiark Button.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:16
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Ibram Gaunt posted:You do know that the Venat scene wasn't literal and she didn't just walk in hear them say "i love zodiark" and decided to sunder, right? Of course, but that's all we're given to work with. I can't judge based on stuff I haven't seen, even if the stuff I DO see obviously isn't literal. That's why I keep saying it's a matter of selling the idea, not the idea itself.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:16
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We learned more about the whole process and how long it took back in Shadowbringers. There had to be some amount of actual ongoing debate before anything happened since Elidibus had to withdraw himself in a failed attempt to reconcile the two sides. Venat didn't just walk out among people in the midst of destruction and say "it's sunderin time".
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Dec 13, 2021 20:18
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Raelle posted:Again, we don't know that. What Zodiark needs is aether - he's a primal, and primals can be summoned using crystals of aether alone. Ancient souls were the huge and immediate bundle of aether that they needed for the initial summoning because they needed it to happen RIGHT NOW to stop the apocalypse. But the soulless creations of the Ancients - indeed, basically everything in the world, according to lore - is made of aether. If they had been able to gradually swap that out for the souls, once again, to me, that's not even a choice. You do it as soon as possible, even if you come to the 'ideal' answer of Zodiark needing to stick around as a temporary measure until they come up with a more permanent solution. And saying "they probably" and "I suspect" and "eventually would have" isn't good enough for me when it comes to either a) leaving 75% of the Ancient civilization in a purgatory that goes straight against their beliefs about a meaningful death, and b) wiping them out and ending their civilization. Execution, not premise. I figure that the scene showcasing the situation right before the Sundering shows that the Ancients weren't really in a frame of mind to go 'Alright, let us nurture life sustainably, and just constantly send a stream of non sentient Aether to Zodiark, and get our sacrifices out. One of them every year or so, while slowly rebuilding our society on the ruins. They didn't want to deal with years and decades of losing their loved ones. They didn't want to have to deal with rebuilding on the ruins. They wanted their old lives back. Now.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:19
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Pandaemonium might address this, but I would not be surprised if Sacrifice #3 was something that that the last 1/4ths of the ancients (what little number that might have been given the final days killed a lot of them, half of the survivors were fed to Zodiark, and another half were fed to repair the planet) might have been pushing back on until Elidibus came down and accidentally tempered a lot of them into a consensus. At that point, what hope does Venat really have in convincing the remaining ancients to probably not feed more lives to the Zodiark meat grinder, let alone finding an alternative because Zodiark was not only too powerful but needed to be around anyway I could see her back being against the wall entirely where her and her few followers resorted to the Hydaelyn plan for the lack of any better recourse that would allow the new life to survive
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Dec 13, 2021 20:19
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Raelle posted:Again, we don't know that. What Zodiark needs is aether - he's a primal, and primals can be summoned using crystals of aether alone. Ancient souls were the huge and immediate bundle of aether that they needed for the initial summoning because they needed it to happen RIGHT NOW to stop the apocalypse. But the soulless creations of the Ancients - indeed, basically everything in the world, according to lore - is made of aether. If they had been able to gradually swap that out for the souls, once again, to me, that's not even a choice. You do it as soon as possible, even if you come to the 'ideal' answer of Zodiark needing to stick around as a temporary measure until they come up with a more permanent solution. And saying "they probably" and "I suspect" and "eventually would have" isn't good enough for me when it comes to either a) leaving 75% of the Ancient civilization in a purgatory that goes straight against their beliefs about a meaningful death, and b) wiping them out and ending their civilization. Execution, not premise. Freeing them goes against their beliefs, they are performing a duty for the Star. To return them to the Star before the duty is finished is an insult. Leaving them in purgatory implies that Zodiark is a permanent fixture of the planet going forward. If he’s only a temporary measure, then those Ancients inside him are performing a duty with an endpoint that involves them returning to the Star and they do not need to be freed anyway. That’s the thing I’m trying to say here. The very act of deciding to sacrifice non ancients to pull ancients out of Zodiark goes against their stated beliefs. Again, inside Zodiark not one of the Ancients wants to return to the Star, they want to perform their duty as martyrs and protectors of the planet. We directly see this to be so, they consider it their duty to perform their job as Zodiark. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 20:19
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You know, ironically, I believe that a Zodiark filled with souls who so much cherished life as a whole, even in the midst of all the despair that was unleashed on them, that they sacrificed themselves to save the lives of their loved ones, supported by the survivors stubbornly rebuilding on the ashes she caused and rising up again after she knocked them down, and then would go to find her would have been something that might have actually dealt with the issue.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:22
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Lord_Magmar posted:Freeing them goes against their beliefs, they are performing a duty for the Star. To return them to the Star before the duty is finished is an insult. Leaving them in purgatory implies that Zodiark is a permanent fixture of the planet going forward. If he’s only a temporary measure, then those Ancients inside him are performing a duty with an endpoint that involves them returning to the Star and they do not need to be freed anyway. That’s the thing I’m trying to say here. This is going to be my last post on this, since I think we're going around in circles and like I said, I think this comes down to a fundamental difference in worldview and belief. Assuming that a person who is willing to put themselves through pain, at the expense of their own comfort and happiness, because they want to protect their loved ones, are perfectly happy to 'perform their duty' in perpetuity and wanting to think of a way to spare them from their tragically necessitated fate is some kind of 'insult' to them is not something I can wrap my head around. At all. To me, it comes across as platitudes to be fine abandoning them to a terrible fate for our own convenience. Especially knowing that no, Hythlodaeus did not want this, this was not his desire, he is selflessly denying himself his own dream because he chooses to priorize protecting Hades and the other people of the Star. If someone I loved decided to lock themselves in a box because through whatever contrivance, that was the only way to save my life, I am going to look for a way to get them out of there instead of figuring 'hm, guess they're happy to be in that box. Well anyway.'
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Dec 13, 2021 20:27
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tbf, Venat did absolutely walk out amongst the people and say "it's sunderin time" whether or not it was in the midst of catastrophe.Jetrauben posted:Except that, again, there's lots of even orthodox Ancients whom you converse with who express a strong amount of empathy and care for you. The baseline Ancient position is not "gently caress other life," it's "all life is precious and good, and we value even a 'mere' familiar - a semi-extension of its creator designed for a specific task - enough to ask their opinion, reward them for help, and care for their well-being as a full person." I mean again, they were ready to wipe out a whole species because one of them was afraid of flying and they'd rather do the convenient thing than suffer the indignity of transformation. Being nice (and in one case infantilizing) doesn't really amount to useful empathy. But it's not just about their treatment of their creations - it's also about how they treat their own lives. They are, again, prone to just choosing to die when they've fulfilled some sort of purpose. If their society didn't go the way of Ra-la it probably would go the way of Omicron, like Hermes speculated. If their perfection was achievable, they would achieve it then surrender to death since they lacked for purpose. They didn't value life not in the sense of a literal living being (although often yes) but they didn't place enough value on the process of living. Hell they don't even like to acknowledge death, Hythlodeus is surprised when Hermes calls the act what it is.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:28
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I’m not saying leave them in Zodiark, I’m saying respect their sacrifice and find a solution that makes Zodiark unnecessary. Just swapping them for other stuff wouldn’t make them happy, it would be denying them their duty (which Ancients consider a vital part of their life, they do their duty and then once it is done return to the Star). You are not abandoning them to their fate for your convenience, because you are working on a solution that respects their chosen duty and will eventually let them see their duty end so they can return to the Star. If someone I loved locked themselves in a box because doing so protected me, I would not be trying to replace them in the box I would be trying to make the box unnecessary, and the game presents the latter as the path the Ancients should have taken because the former just leads to infinitely locking things in boxes to solve problems. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 20:30
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I mean I'd argue that's not actually an immature response to death as an immortal. "Live until you feel you've done enough in this life, then go to the Aetherial Sea for a respite and be born again as someone else" feels like the proper reincarnation approach to the potential ennui of immortal existence. It's not unhealthy at all, and something being adopted as an individual ethos is not synonymous with the entire society deciding "welp time to die now." Honestly it's basically the solution writ large.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:30
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Ibram Gaunt posted:You do know that the Venat scene wasn't literal and she didn't just walk in hear them say "i love zodiark" and decided to sunder, right? When Hydaelyn sundered the world, she sundered Therion as well.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:31
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I think that might be why they're relatively comfortable with the 'Huh, yeah, this species doesn't seem to work out, time to pull the plug' Even with themselves, they tend to have a view of 'Hey, if you don't really have a job left to do, time to get your reset and return to the Lifestream', so in a way, they treat Familiars in the same way they treat themselves. (With, you know, the notable exception that Familiars don't get to consent) But yeah, it is definitely the moral blind spot of the whole society. Something that Hermes might have made some real impact there. I mean, Emet probably would back him in a way. His reaction to Hermes making clear what he thought of it was to tell him to join the Convocation. Even if he doesn't agree, he clearly feels it's a perspective the ruling body has a place for.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:33
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Raelle posted:If someone I loved decided to lock themselves in a box because through whatever contrivance, that was the only way to save my life, I am going to look for a way to get them out of there instead of figuring 'hm, guess they're happy to be in that box. Well anyway.' Would you stick an equal mass of puppies in the box instead though? Or would you question why you need a Pain Box in the first place and try and dismantle that fucker? Because the Ancients, in their grief and horror, seemed to be leaning toward the former.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:34
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Jetrauben posted:I mean I'd argue that's not actually an immature response to death as an immortal. And notably the Ancients inside Zodiark are conscious actors who when we get a direct feed of their thoughts think only of saving the planet. They’re alive and performing their duty until they have completed it and can happily return to the Star. This is literally on screen during the scene before the fight with Fandaniel inside Zodiark. The Ancients are talking about saving the Star, being the martyr, protecting the world, not one of them wants to return to the Star because they have a duty to fulfill first. The Ancients who are having issues are the ones outside the Zodiark collective, barred from completing their duty as a part of Zodiark by Hydaelyn’s bindings. We even get to see Hythlodaeus twice in that sequence be happy and friendly and understanding of the situation, he’s certainly not concerned with returning to the sea just yet. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 20:34
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Shogeton posted:I think that might be why they're relatively comfortable with the 'Huh, yeah, this species doesn't seem to work out, time to pull the plug' Even with themselves, they tend to have a view of 'Hey, if you don't really have a job left to do, time to get your reset and return to the Lifestream', so in a way, they treat Familiars in the same way they treat themselves. (With, you know, the notable exception that Familiars don't get to consent) But yeah, it is definitely the moral blind spot of the whole society. Something that Hermes might have made some real impact there. I mean, Emet probably would back him in a way. His reaction to Hermes making clear what he thought of it was to tell him to join the Convocation. Even if he doesn't agree, he clearly feels it's a perspective the ruling body has a place for. I think the essential point here is that to Ancients their purpose is not a job, it's a joy. It's not "you no longer provide utility to society" - and notably although Ancient society natters on about how they need to be frugal and harmonious, there's plenty of ancients engaging in whimsical excess and decadence, from Mitron and Loghrif's students cheerfully following their relationship drama to ancients lounging around relaxing and enjoying themselves or the frankly silly trend-chasing of creating new cool shark species just for the sake of making the world cooler. It is, in a more concrete sense, their life's work. They stick around as long as they find meaning and happiness in life and decide to have a reset when they no longer do. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:38
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Jetrauben posted:I think the essential point here is that to Ancients their purpose is not a job, it's a joy. It's not "you no longer provide utility to society" - and notably although Ancient society natters on about how they need to be frugal and harmonious, there's plenty of ancients engaging in whimsical excess and decadence, from Mitron and Loghrif's students cheerfully following their relationship drama to ancients lounging around relaxing and enjoying themselves or the frankly silly trend-chasing of creating new cool shark species just for the sake of making the world cooler. It is, in a more concrete sense, their life's work. They stick around as long as they find meaning and happiness in life and decide to have a reset when they no longer do. Yeah, I'm reminded of a certain series, though the series' name is a Spoiler. The Good Place does it with their vision of Heaven. You basically hang around until you feel you're done, and then your existence end, and you become... well... goodness, inspiring someone else in life to do a good thing.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:41
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Asterite34 posted:Would you stick an equal mass of puppies in the box instead though? Or would you question why you need a Pain Box in the first place and try and dismantle that fucker? Because the Ancients, in their grief and horror, seemed to be leaning toward the former. These are not mutually exclusive concepts! You can do both! Yes, I would ABSOLUTELY trade my loved one for a puppy in the box for the duration the box is required, while yes, hopefully looking for a solution where the Pain Box isn't needed at all. And again, for me personally, "leaning toward" is not good enough for Venat to decide to bring down the executioners' axe on all of them. If we're going by that standard, the First - or at least the people of Eulmore - were "leaning toward" a destructive end as well. So were the people of Garlemald. So were many of the city-states, arguably, or the numerous people in Ala Mhigo and Doma who were ready to roll over and give up against the Empire. But in those cases, you don't decide to give up and violently, forcefully wipe the slate clean. You put in the work and keep reaching a hand out to them to the very end. Did Venat do that? Maybe? But it's all really vague and generalized, and what we directly see, even if it's meant to be a metaphor, is her reaction to her people giving her an answer she didn't like being violence - and we know she didn't provide any details about her knowledge of how to actually solve the Final Days and what was causing it. So it's hard to buy that, whatever the narrative posits, she really did do Everything She Could before resorting to sundering because all her other options had been exhausted.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:43
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Thinking a bit more, the Ancients inside Zodiark are literally the Scions during Ultima Thule. They knowingly sacrifice themselves with the understanding that their friends will continue on with their protection, to find a solution so that they can be freed from their sacrificial burden. Y’shtola straight up says don’t pull me back until you’ve solved the problem. So imagine Hythlodaeus saying to Emet-Selch “I believe you can solve the problem, we will return to the sea together, you just have to save the world whilst I protect it okay?” We ultimately find another solution, but it’s one build out of hope instead of replacement sacrifices. Raelle posted:These are not mutually exclusive concepts! You can do both! Yes, I would ABSOLUTELY trade my loved one for a puppy in the box for the duration the box is required, while yes, hopefully looking for a solution where the Pain Box isn't needed at all. The analogy is more along the lines of 20 puppies you grew yourself to put in the pain box whilst not doing anything at all to remove the pain box needing to exist and your friend inside the box probably not wanting you to replace them with puppies because they got in the box not just for you to be able to live, but also the potential puppies. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 20:43
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Shogeton posted:I think that might be why they're relatively comfortable with the 'Huh, yeah, this species doesn't seem to work out, time to pull the plug' Even with themselves, they tend to have a view of 'Hey, if you don't really have a job left to do, time to get your reset and return to the Lifestream', so in a way, they treat Familiars in the same way they treat themselves. (With, you know, the notable exception that Familiars don't get to consent) But yeah, it is definitely the moral blind spot of the whole society. Something that Hermes might have made some real impact there. I mean, Emet probably would back him in a way. His reaction to Hermes making clear what he thought of it was to tell him to join the Convocation. Even if he doesn't agree, he clearly feels it's a perspective the ruling body has a place for. I really appreciated Emet in that moment tbh, not just because of what you mention but also because he has read the situation pretty well and has correctly realized that for as brilliant as Hermes is in his role as chief of Elpis he is also emotionally unsuited for the role and it is not good for him. Really I just enjoyed Emet a lot in Elpis. Him immediately recognizing that Hermes gave the Meteia a terrible question was similarly notable to me but I can't really express why.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:49
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Document your poo poo Don't release von neumann probes before sputnik Document your poo poo, seriously Kairos is gross. Oops, those memories you wanted gone? They're gone until you die, because we burned them away so hard we seared them into your immortal reincarnating soul. This is precisely why poo poo needs to be tested and reviewed and whaddya know the same guy made those von neumann probes.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:50
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Jetrauben posted:I think the essential point here is that to Ancients their purpose is not a job, it's a joy. For people supposedly Joyous all the time they sure have a hard time making the Elpis flowers change colors from default white....
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Dec 13, 2021 20:55
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OddObserver posted:For people supposedly Joyous all the time they sure have a hard time making the Elpis flowers change colors from default white.... Well clearly nobody considered it their purpose to make Elpis flowers change color.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:56
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OddObserver posted:For people supposedly Joyous all the time they sure have a hard time making the Elpis flowers change colors from default white.... Because the color white with Elpis blossoms represents hope, as we learn in Ultima Thule, and hope is the one thing that is absolutely dominant in Elpis. The entire place is created for the purpose of hope for the future of the Star and its improvement.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:56
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OddObserver posted:For people supposedly Joyous all the time they sure have a hard time making the Elpis flowers change colors from default white.... White is the colour of hope and joy. Or just hope. We don’t actually know the default colour of those flowers, because presumably they cannot be observed in a place with no Dynamis.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:56
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| # ? Jun 12, 2024 03:51 |
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MSQ 87 Hermes: "i have made a von Neumann probe" Emet-Selch: "you hosed up a perfectly good bird is what you did. look at it. it's got anxiety"
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Dec 13, 2021 20:57
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