WrenP-Complete posted:

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/horus-heresy-series-analysis-thread-carried-over.309480/

MizPiz posted:

You're right, but the reason they see Warhammer as 100% serious is because they think it's realistic. The depth doesn't come from the metaphoric or allegoric aspects of the work, but how "accurate" the setting, characters, and actions are based on their worldview. Basically, Warhammer doesn't extra levels because it's already portraying life as it really is.

Then again, this could be exactly what you're saying just with different words, thus confirming this as one of my more moments.


TBH I just used that as an example because I'm on a bit of a 40k lore-binge.

Peztopiary posted:

These are people who believe in meme magic. They think words and images can forcibly change the way you understand the world, such that you suddenly wake up and look in horror at what had previously taken for granted. After that revelation, you'll love the patriarchy (which is always the step I'm confused about) and a subset of weird psuedo-conservative beliefs.

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

The thing about Lovecraft is a lot of his work itself was incredibly racist, so even nerds can't sweep it under the rug or mentally justify why actually no this story is totally happy and fine and i don't know why you have to see racism everywhere. He was about as unambiguously racist as you can get, which is actually kind of, uh, refreshing compared to today's dogwhistles and constant denial.

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

That faint sound in your ears is me screaming in the distance

The Vosgian Beast posted:

Somfin posted:

This comic is really dumb, because Poe has written fairly extensively about The Raven and how it was a mercenary, engineered poem. The first consideration was how many lines it should have; everything else came from that decision.

WrenP-Complete posted:

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/horus-heresy-series-analysis-thread-carried-over.309480/

The Vosgian Beast posted:

That's one reason. It's a hilariously bad comic because:

1: The symbolism in the Raven is really, really easy to get

2: Poe himself wrote about the symbolism

3: Even if you are just giving a straight description of the events, the narrator loving hated that raven.


It's still a surface-level reading even if the surface is stretched out to several miles

WrenP-Complete posted:

I literally just googled for it and then pasted it. I don't know the original text either.

Peel posted:

It's not a non-surface reading so much as the ultimate surface reading - taking the superficial phenomena of the narrative as literally existent and trying to make up work out as much trivial detail about their posited literal existence as possible.

You can play some fun games with it but my god.

neongrey posted:

As a rule nerds have no idea what a non-surface level reading even is, definitionally. This is what comes of prizing extraneous detail above all else.

Night10194 posted:

I mean taking a dumb concept and then trying to use it to express something meaningful or communicate an idea isn't inherently futile or insane.

Reading it into loving Warhammer is, though, unless (in recent years) that idea is 'man isn't fascism actually kinda cool', which is hilarious for something that started as a ripoff of 2000 AD.

WrenP-Complete posted:

That is a profoundly interesting thing to say, and I don't know what set of tools you'd use to evaluate this. Is this what people who study competitive literature do? (What do they do?)

Darth Walrus posted:

Pretty much any work of art can be read into to some extent. Complexity affects the number of meanings you can (easily) find in something, while quality affects how many of those meanings are likely to be intentional, and how satisfyingly they're explored. Warhammer's lore may be a toy commercial, but it's a vast and complex toy commercial that's mashed together a few billion different artistic inspirations, and that means that a critic can find a lot to dig into. The themes may be unpleasant, and the way they're explored may be unsatisfying, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I mean, just look at Chaos and how it works. You've got a setting where emotions literally come alive and try to eat people. That's a dense thematic vein to mine right there, especially when you remember that Warhams is primarily sold to teenage boys navigating the minefield of puberty.

Wikipedia posted:

List generally saw the world in which he was living as one of degeneration,[54] comparing it with the societies of the Late Roman and Byzantine Empires.[55] He bemoaned the decline of the rural peasantry through urbanisation, having witnessed how Vienna's population tripled between 1870 and 1890, resulting in overcrowding, a growth in diseases like tuberculosis, and a severe strain on the city's resources.[56] A staunch monarchist, he opposed all forms of democracy, feminism, and modern trends in the arts, such as those of the Vienna Secessionists.[54] Influenced by the Pan-Germanist politician Georg Ritter von Schönerer and his Away from Rome! movement, List decried the growing influence of linguistically Slavic communities within the Austro-Hungarian Empire.[57] He was opposed to laissez-faire capitalism and large-scale enterprise, instead favouring an economic system based on small-scale artisans and craftsmen, being particularly unhappy with the decline in tradesmen's guilds.[58] He was similarly opposed to the modern banking sector and financial institutions, deeming it to be dominated by Jews; in criticising these institutions, he expressed anti-semitic sentiments.[54] Such views of the country's economic situation were not uncommon in Austria at the time, having become particularly widespread following the Panic of 1873.[54] The later Heathen and runologist Edred Thorsson noted that List's "theories were to some degree based on the anti-semitic dogmas of the day",[59] while Hammer stated that the Ariosophic tradition promulgated by List and others was "unambiguously racist and anti-semitic".[31]

List believed that the degradation of modern Western society was as a result of a conspiracy orchestrated by a secret organisation known as the Great International Party,[60] an idea influenced by anti-semitic conspiracy theories.[61] Adopting a millenarianist perspective, he believed in the imminent defeat of this enemy and the establishment of a better future for the Ario-German race.[62] In April 1915 he welcomed the start of World War I as a conflict that would bring about the defeat of Germany's enemies and the establishment of a golden age for the new Ario-German Empire.[63] Toward the war's end, he believed that the German war dead would be reincarnated as a generation who would push through with a national revolution and establish this new, better society.[64] For List, this better future would be intricately connected to the ancient past, reflecting his belief in the cyclical nature of time, something which he had adopted both from a reading of Norse mythology and from Theosophy.[65] Reflecting his monarchist beliefs, he envisioned this future state as being governed by the House of Habsburg,[66] with a revived feudal system of land ownership being introduced through which land would be inherited by a man's eldest son.[67] In List's opinion, this new empire would be highly hierarchical, with non-Aryans being subjugated under the Aryan population and opportunities for education and jobs in public service being restricted to those deemed racially pure.[68] He envisioned this Empire following the Wotanic religion which he promoted.[32]

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

... the only person they actually interviewed were the people who invited him (some campus libertarian group I think) who were like "This is how we have a ~conversation~ and if he weren't so controversial nobody would care and we couldn't have this ~conversation~"

MizPiz posted:

A thread relevant analysis of 40k.

Peel posted:

It's not a non-surface reading so much as the ultimate surface reading - taking the superficial phenomena of the narrative as literally existent and trying to make up work out as much trivial detail about their posited literal existence as possible.

You can play some fun games with it but my god.

Silver2195 posted:

I'm pretty sure most people who argue about the mechanics of fictional worlds are aware that it's just a fun game. Which isn't to deny that some people can be obnoxious about it.

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

Yes but those people do it in real life, just for funsies, with friends, maybe over a few drinks. I think the line at which it starts to become weird is when you start writing it down on the internet.

MizPiz posted:

A thread relevant analysis of 40k.

quote:

“Every doctrine tends to direct human activity towards a determined objective,” as Mussolini said. Although very few people would want to live in the Human Imperium, I also believe that there are also a lot of people who don’t want to live in Gene Roddenberry’s Federation or George Lucas’ Galactic Republic, yours truly included. Despite its obvious caricaturization, the Human Imperium represents a society where courage, valor, instinct and the will are more valued than equality, compassion and progress. It is a society that is not driven by the shallow morality of egalitarianism and individuality, but by the Will to Power as expressed by the Will to Survive.

Doc Hawkins posted:

The designated good team is those boring grey alien guys. The humans are gross and awful (in a fun way).

Improbable Lobster posted:

Everyone is evil in increasingly edgy ways, which is great when people remember that the setting is highly satirical

The Vosgian Beast posted:

Nerds hate reading on any level other than the surface.

Unless it's Lovecraft. With Lovecraft it's okay to talk about the underlying philosophy and how his racism might have affected his work. But nerds will tolerate that kind of discussion for nobody else, not even when it's really obvious.

Improbable Lobster posted:

Everyone is evil in increasingly edgy ways, which is great when people remember that the setting is highly satirical

Law Cheetah posted:

from my memory of high school it was always the normalcool kids who got mad about the stuff in that comic, not the nerds

fatherboxx posted:

Very "good" essay on being a child


I don't think individual virtues are valued at all in the setting where billions die just because they got run over by a wandering fleet of demon knights.
Why the altrighters don't identify with Chaos characters? If anything, they are purer expression of the "will to power" and the "will to survive". For being fans of a setting that is above conventional morality they sure support the designated "good" team. What rebels!

I love the paragraph about pop culture significance that is entirely empty huffing. Warhammer is mostly insignificant on a global pop culture scale, not because race traitors and liberals hide it from the people, but because it is hillariously unrelatable and is ultimately anchored by its goal - to explain why overpriced plastic soldiers need to bash each other. The right needs to find some stories about peacetime if it wants to influence popular culture.

The Vosgian Beast posted:

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

Yes but those people do it in real life, just for funsies, with friends, maybe over a few drinks. I think the line at which it starts to become weird is when you start writing it down on the internet.