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I've never properly groked how wild Eriador is supposed to be. I know there was a plague recently but every human town but Bree and the surrounding villages seems to be a ruin. Is most of the population living in isolated homesteads? Is there some sort of real life historical comparison to be made here?
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Feb 1, 2022 19:04
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North America post European contact but before white peoples moved west Also if you count orcs as people then it’s not as depopulated euphronius fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Feb 1, 2022 |
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Feb 1, 2022 19:06
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It appears more depopulated than it is because they’re mostly trying to keep a low profile by traveling through places where nobody lives. But the fact is that the hobbits have very little understanding of the state of Eriador as a whole and wouldn’t know where to find any village outside the Breeland since they’re just too far away for them to give a poo poo.quote:Occasionally the Hobbits of Bree went as far as Buckland, or the Eastfarthing; but though their little land was not much further than a day’s riding east of the Brandywine Bridge, the Hobbits of the Shire now seldom visited it. An occasional Bucklander or adventurous Took would come out to the Inn for a night or two, but even that was becoming less and less usual. The Shire-hobbits referred to those of Bree, and to any others that lived beyond the borders, as Outsiders, and took very little interest in them, considering them dull and uncouth. There were probably many more Outsiders scattered about in the West of the World in those days than the people of the Shire imagined. Nb, a hobbit’s poo poo-giving radius is a day’s ride. There are probably settlements all over some parts of Eriador. Just…probably not along the royal road of a kingdom that hasn’t existed for over a thousand years and that doesn’t really go anywhere anymore.
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Feb 1, 2022 19:46
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YaketySass posted:I've never properly groked how wild Eriador is supposed to be. I know there was a plague recently but every human town but Bree and the surrounding villages seems to be a ruin. Is most of the population living in isolated homesteads? Is there some sort of real life historical comparison to be made here? With The One Ring TTRPG coming out this has been on my mind a lot too, and we chatted about it in here a few months ago or something. But my personal interpretation is that while Tolkien never directly gives us population numbers or whatnot, there is an implied significant population in Eriador, it is just dispersed. There has to be significant numbers of Dwarves in the Ered Luin and Elves in Forlindon and Harlindon, as well as the Grey Havens proper. Both the Hobbit and LOTR reference dwarven traders moving through the Shire, and travelers are discussed as going up and down the Greenway. Rivendell has to have had a significant population that we do not see, otherwise Sauron would have just zerg rushed it down. Elrond, Glorfindel and his sons are powerful, but there is nothing to suggest they could Dynasty Warriors themselves out of a thousand(s) strong orc raid. So there has to have been infrastructure we just do not see. As for humans, the Dunedain could easily have many thousands spread out over wide areas, living in small communities or roaming bands. We see Bree which is a well developed settlement, and there is no reason to assume the coasts would be devoid of people, when those are the best areas to live in. They could have trade with the Grey Havens as well as Gondor, and be self sustaining via fishing and whaling. There are likely villages and small towns scattered all over Eriador along rivers, lakes, and in good farmland. There is also no reason to think there are not humans that live closer to the Grey Havens as well, since that would provide protection to them, as well as workers for farms and whatnot in the area. A good historical analogue could be areas that border the Eurasian steppe. Places like medieval Lithuania did not have large populations, but were not totally empty. You had a few cities, a lot of farmers, and then nomadic groups on the steppe.
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Feb 2, 2022 00:34
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Towns are mentioned around Bree . They are in the mmo. Also as I mentioned Orc are people and they are all over the mountains
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Feb 2, 2022 00:36
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It isn't just Hobbit provincialism that makes them isolated, the Shire was probably once the breadbasket of Arthedain. If you look at dates the first Hobbit settlements in the Shire are established less than 40 years prior to the Great Plague. It is extremely likely that after the plague the Hobbits were given what amounted to total control over the region while the remaining Numenorean inhabitants moved closer to the front lines on the North downs. It seems likely that Hobbit agricultural labor was the only thing keeping Arthedain standing for that last two centuries or so. What this also means though is that all people who weren't Hobbits in the immediate vicinity of the Shire (with some exceptions like Bree, which is on the quickest route from the Shire to Fornost) either died or relocated.
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Feb 2, 2022 03:05
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theres dwarves living in the blue mountains and supposedly some people in eryn vorn. yes i bring this up with all of my dates
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Feb 2, 2022 04:11
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Lindon still had a lot of elves just hanging out.
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Feb 2, 2022 04:45
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Also Dunland had a large population pretty much confined to the west side of the misty mountains. I think its mentioned that Tharbad was an old Numenorean port/logging town, but when they clearcut the forests around it, it was pretty much abandoned and fell into ruin. I don't think anyone lived in Minhiriath since the Numenoreans drove out the "lesser" men that lived there in the second age, and then Sauron burned what was left after he forged his ring.
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Feb 2, 2022 05:30
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The LotR wiki claims that there were permanent settlements of the Dunedain in the angle between the rivers Gwathló and Bruinen (i.e. south of Rivendell), although they don't give any source for this. Also they seem to have lived as semi-nomads in the area between the Gwathló and the Brandywine.
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Feb 2, 2022 11:41
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The source is probably just LoTR Online or something.
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Feb 2, 2022 14:59
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The Dunedain have to live somewhere.
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Feb 2, 2022 21:16
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We're the dunedain Always wandering with the dunedain The life I love is killing uruks with my friends
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Feb 2, 2022 21:47
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Tree Bucket posted:We're the dunedain They probably have a solid bardic tradition as well but Aragorn's Lúthien song is the "here's Wonderwall" of Dúnedain gatherings.
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Feb 2, 2022 22:19
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The reason Aragorn is all alone when the hobbits meet him is that none of the other Dunedain want to hang with the guy who won’t shut up about Luthien. He’s just happy to have found some friends who don’t know how lame his favorite song is. The real reason he takes them into the wilds is so they won’t meet anyone who might dispell the hobbits ignorance.
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Feb 2, 2022 22:38
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wtf is up with tharbad. place just sits there and nobody ever talks about it
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Feb 3, 2022 01:14
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Shibawanko posted:wtf is up with tharbad. place just sits there and nobody ever talks about it *clears throat* We don't talk about Tharbad. Not after all that... unpleasantness.
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Feb 3, 2022 01:17
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I looked it up a while ago and it was some town, got plagued during those plagues, then there was some huge floods and whoever had still been there left. Now it's just ruins. Like, thousand year old ruins. Probably not much there. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tharbad There's actually a decent bit of detail on its history through the 2nd and 3rd age. This article references The Lost Road and Other Writings as saying in the 4th age the Rohirrim probably rebuilt it and populated the Enedwaith. EDIT: Looks like Boromir probably crossed the river Gwathlo at Tharbad on his way to Rivendell. Unfinished Tales posted:When Boromir made his great journey from Gondor to Rivendell - the courage and hardihood required is not fully recognized in the narrative - the North-South Road no longer existed except for the crumbling remains of the causeways, by which a hazardous approach to Tharbad might be achieved, only to find ruins on dwindling mounds, and a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge, impassable if the river had not there been slow and shallow - but wide. Tharbad is especially cool to me cause it sort of exists in this part of the map that the books (LOTR) don't really address in detail, if at all. Would you call this a "liminal space"? Idk, but it's neat cause its on the periphery, but not really the periphery cause it's between two places you see a lot of. SHISHKABOB fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 01:39
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Boromir's journey to Rivendell is the kind of thing that would have its own song written about it in happier times than the end of the Third Age.
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Feb 3, 2022 02:23
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Okay so I'm obviously a Tolkien fan but I have to say that the breadth of knowledge of other posters here on the Legendarium definitely well surpasses my own. I've read LotR, The Hobbit and the Silmarillion multiple times each, and have perused the Lost Tales on occasion, and most of what y'all are discussing is total Greek to me. So a question I have, if I can articulate it well: How much of what's being discussed here (like, for example, the population density and settlement patterns of Eriador) is actually canonical versus something that some writer on the e.g. MMO dev team or whatever came up with? People cite the Wiki, but then others will say "oh that's from the MMO." So is the MMO authoritative, or not? What is and isn't? And I understand that "canonical" as a concept can kinda be problematic in it's own right. Like if something is explicitly stated in The Hobbit, LotR, or the Silmarillion, then no poo poo. But if it's something near-incomprehensible that Tolkien scribbled out during a PTSD episode on a napkin that Christopher later "edited" into a book, does that carry the same weight?
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Feb 3, 2022 16:02
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First actual image we’ve seen I think?
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Feb 3, 2022 16:10
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In my opinion LoTR is way way up top in terms of “canonicity” or “what happened”. Under that is the last edition of the hobbit which was retconned by Tolkien to be consistent with LoTR but is still silly and more of a story told by Bilbo with many not quite “true” parts Then the Silmarillion which .. . Idk . That’s a very complicated document
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Feb 3, 2022 16:11
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euphronius posted:In my opinion LoTR is way way up top in terms of “canonicity” or “what happened”. And I'm guessing Lost Tales and other stuff Chris has published falls under even the Silmarillion, then? Or is the Silmarillion on the same tier as them? And I am aware of the Hobbit revisions, I've never read the original edition, as far as I'm aware.
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Feb 3, 2022 16:13
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If your POV is “canonicity” of “what actually happened” then no i don’t think any of those Chris Tolkien books are “reliable” without tons of context and history and so forth and even then..
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Feb 3, 2022 16:18
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Mahoning posted:First actual image we’ve seen I think? I hope this is completely over the top goofy and dumb.
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Feb 3, 2022 16:20
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Also it's "Unfinished Tales," not "Lost Tales." Whoops.
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Feb 3, 2022 16:20
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Even the Red Book of Westmarch is just one account of what happened.
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Feb 3, 2022 16:21
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Frankly I'd be leery of even JRRT the later in life he got. Most of his Silmarillion rewrites were attempts to rationalize Orcs and free will in his Catholic belief system, and also the round-earth/heliocentric universe, and he kept tearing his hair out rewriting it to encompass those things more smoothly and he ended up just ruining it and giving up as soon as he started. Same with that "LotR-style Hobbit" he did in 1960 that was completely in an adult tone, and he got as far as the Trolls and showed it to a friend who was like "uhhhh it's nice I guess but it's not The Hobbit"
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Feb 3, 2022 16:22
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there are a bunch on the twitter up to like 10-15 now. At the very least, the costumes seem well done. https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1489257998144860160?s=20&t=oxvMe3ARLUdzCxePoWfPLw I do like this dagger that is meant to evoke the 2 trees. 
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Feb 3, 2022 16:26
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Ginette Reno posted:I hope this is completely over the top goofy and dumb. They actually dropped something like 20+ images like this. Some of them are pretty cool from a costume/production design standpoint.   
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Feb 3, 2022 16:28
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WoodrowSkillson posted:there are a bunch on the twitter up to like 10-15 now. At the very least, the costumes seem well done. ah, it's dagger
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Feb 3, 2022 16:28
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Even the Red Book of Westmarch is just one account of what happened. By a few different authors and then translated yeah For example : The one area where I think this becomes important is the wizards where the common interpretation of them these days is based a lot of the unpublished notes and letters . And then we just had a discussion about Galadriel and who she was and there isn’t much in LOTR. Is it proper to bring in stuff from Chris Tolkien ? Idk
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Feb 3, 2022 16:30
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This dude has two rings he must be extra powerful!
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Feb 3, 2022 16:41
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As I understand it, Tolkien had a constantly evolving idea about a lot of the things in LOTR as a setting. So it's important for me to remember that, when I look at a wiki article about the city of tharbad or whatever, I am synthesizing a bunch of stuff together into some kind of coherent story in my own head. Also as I understand it, Canon as a religious thing is a way to make sure everybody agrees on certain ways of talking about poo poo, so that there's no "heresy" or whatever. When ppl are interpreting fictional works like lotr, its not for religious purposes, so like, you can't be heretical because there's no "religion", (though I guess there are "Tolkien scholars" and that's relatively similar). It's for pretty personal purposes. When you talk to other people about your different interpretations, it's important to have clear understandings of how each of you view the collected works and whatever, but that's up to individuals to have healthy discussions. All this haziness is why I like lotr because it really helps me understand what Tolkien meant about making a mythology for the English, or for the modern day, or something. Cause like, imagine being a person in Norway arguing with some other guy about some story about Thor or whatever. It must have been magnitudes more complex because they were dealing with mostly oral collections of stories that were like a thousand years old and shared between a whole lot of people. As opposed to us huddling in this thread just talking about the written works of one guy across like 30 or 40 years.
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Feb 3, 2022 17:22
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I bet Sam went back and edited in the part where he rejected the Ring just to make himself seem more awesome.
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Feb 3, 2022 17:30
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i'm ready to be disappointed, and my default assumption is the show will suck rear end, but at the very least, those are well made costumes and that shows an attention to detail lacking in The Hobbit and other poo poo.
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Feb 3, 2022 17:46
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WoodrowSkillson posted:i'm ready to be disappointed, and my default assumption is the show will suck rear end, but at the very least, those are well made costumes and that shows an attention to detail lacking in The Hobbit and other poo poo. Yeah it'll at least be pretty and make for some good backgrounds/wall art/calendars.
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Feb 3, 2022 17:59
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Kinda getting the impression from some of y'alls replies that treating what's "canon" (or "true" if you prefer that term, though it seems odd when discussing a totally fictional setting) in the Legendarium honestly isn't that different from the actual Canonical Gospels. So yeah, we're pretty sure there was a Jew named Jesus living in 1st century Judea, he traveled to Jerusalem during the passover, roused some rabble, then got crucified. All the other details? Ehhhh who can say? I guess it kinda makes sense in a way given Tolkien's own Catholicism, even if it wasn't intended.
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Feb 3, 2022 18:05
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Mahoning posted:First actual image we’ve seen I think? Daedric greatsword lookin motherfucker
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Feb 3, 2022 18:05
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Everything in The Hobbit, LoTR, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales is canon. If anything within those 4 items contradict something else within those 4 items just flip a coin. IMO
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Feb 3, 2022 18:13
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