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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I hadn't realized that running for president as the candidate for the left wing political party of the united states doesn't count as a promise to do things for the left. Bill absolutely didn't do that. He explicitly ran as a centrist who appealed to Reagan Democrats and as a rejection of the "leftist" candidates who'd gotten slaughtered by Republicans in all but one election since 1968 -- when they ran a centrist, southern Governor named Jimmy Carter.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:15
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If you voted for Trump you are unethical. Period.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:15
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Wherein you treat Hillary and Bill as the same person and also get your history wrong about Bill "stabbing the left in the back" (He didn't, because he never ran on a promise to do anything for the left.) I'd say killing welfare and attempting privatization of Ss is a stab in the back. Plus getting rid of glas stegal.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:16
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mcmagic posted:If you voted for Trump you are unethical. Period. nearly half the nation didn't vote for anyone, and yet for some reason you think they're unethical too
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Feb 16, 2017 17:17
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Crowsbeak posted:I'd say killing welfare and attempting privatization of Ss is a stab in the back. Plus getting rid of glas stegal. Glass-Steagal repeal was done with broad, bipartisan support in the last 6-months of his term; not exactly high up on the priorities list. And again it's not exactly a betrayal if you run on a specific platform to reform welfare!
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Feb 16, 2017 17:18
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I hadn't realized that running for president as the candidate for the left wing political party of the united states doesn't count as a promise to do things for the left. The entire point of Bill's presidency is that after running two boring, if ideologically correct, candidates, they got blown out of the water by Reaganism and the realignment of the '80s via the Southern Strategy and collapse of organized labor. So they ran a fluffy, conservative candidate from the South who was charming and looked good on TV on the promise of "we can do conservatism better than them" as an admission that (they believed) the electorate was conservative past the hope of upholding the New Deal era. Bill was by definition anti-left because the crux of the Blue Dog argument was not that leftism is bad, but that the electorate isn't interested in leftism anymore, for a variety of reasons. It's fundamentally a reactionary model of politics base on electoral attitudes. Edit: didn't Glass-Stegall have constitutional problems with the conservative court of the time?
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Feb 16, 2017 17:19
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Condiv posted:nearly half the nation didn't vote for anyone, and yet for some reason you think they're unethical too They are. They are complicit in enabling an unfit, racist madman to be the president.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:19
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Glass-Steagal repeal was done with broad, bipartisan support in the last 6-months of his term; not exactly high up on the priorities list; but again it's not exactly a betrayal if you run on a specific platform to reform welfare! Yeah he should not have run on reforming it at all. Also bipartisan support doesn't mean it was good for America as 2008 showed. Clinton let the left down then expected fealty. Not going to happen. Best of all despite the support we showed her and him at the booth she lost. So now we can rightfully blame them.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:20
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah he should not have run on reforming it at all. Also bipartisan support doesn't mean it was good for America as 2008 showed. Clinton let the left down then expected fealty. Not going to happen. Best of all despite the support we showed her and him at the booth she lost. So now we can rightfully blame them. *watches goal posts get moved faster than a speeding bullet* And Hillary, who is not Bill, explicitly allowed the platform for her campaign to be pretty danged progressive and let Bernie have a whole damned night to himself in her convention. Like I said, nothing is ever good enough for you guys, so I don't know why you keep excepting anyone to meet your criteria. Hell, you idiots have turned on fuckign Liz Warren.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:23
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mcmagic posted:They are. They are complicit in enabling an unfit, racist madman to be the president. they didn't enable trump to be president at all, that's not how voting works. also it's p hosed up that you think a large majority of america is unethical because they didn't give a vote to your precious abuela. Condiv fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 17:23
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Condiv posted:they didn't enable trump to be president at all, that's not how voting works. lol at accusing mcmagic of being in the mi abuela crowd
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Feb 16, 2017 17:25
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Condiv posted:they didn't enable trump to be president at all, that's not how voting works. If you've been reading these forums you would know that I think Hillary Clinton sucks and have been saying so for years. Not voting for her is also unethical.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:25
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Lightning Knight posted:lol at accusing mcmagic of being in the mi abuela crowd he is if he's so judgemental that the mere act of not voting for her makes you as bad as a trump supporter
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Feb 16, 2017 17:26
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:*watches goal posts get moved faster than a speeding bullet* explain to all how gutting welfare. Trying to gut pensions and gutting banking regulations is not a against everything the left stands for.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:26
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mcmagic posted:They are. They are complicit in enabling an unfit, racist madman to be the president. Bingo. They ultimately had the choice between a relatively normal, if flawed candidate who told them he was a loving racist nazi idiot, and the racist nazi idiot who ran on an explicit platform of being a racist nazi idiot and they chose that. They're wickedly unethical people. Crowsbeak posted:explain to all how gutting welfare. Trying to gut pensions and gutting banking regulations is not a against everything the left stands for. That's a different loving concept from "he betrayed us!" He never promised you anything, you assholes.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:26
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mcmagic posted:If you've been reading these forums you would know that I think Hillary Clinton sucks and have been saying so for years. Not voting for her is also unethical. still disagreed. choosing not to vote is not unethical. also, if the only ethical choice is to vote for hillary then you obviously don't think she sucks.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:28
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Also yeah not destroying the status quo which is what Clinton did bot do to both banking and welfare. Is hardly a high order despite your hilarious claims to the contrary.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:28
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Glass-Steagal repeal was done with broad, bipartisan support in the last 6-months of his term; not exactly high up on the priorities list. And again it's not exactly a betrayal if you run on a specific platform to reform welfare! oh well it's totally okay then
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Feb 16, 2017 17:30
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:
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Feb 16, 2017 17:31
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I still find it interesting that when you apply the Trolly Problem to voting, tons of people will say it's more ethical/not unethical to not pull the lever. Because I mean, in practice, strategic voting versus ideological purity is basically just the trolly problem. 
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Feb 16, 2017 17:31
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Condiv posted:still disagreed. choosing not to vote is not unethical. No. I do think she sucks. You just have an ethical obligation to do everything you can do to make sure that an unfit, racist, madman doesn't become president and voting for her falls into that category.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:32
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Raskolnikov38 posted:oh well it's totally okay then I didn't say that! I said you need to stop the "they betrayed us!!!!!!" poo poo. Bill never promised the left anything. He didn't run as a leftist. He didn't promise leftist policy goals. Hillary, however, did promise you leftist policy goals, but y'all subsumed a false betrayal narrative about Bill onto her, and you're doing the same thing to Perez now.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:32
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:(He didn't, because he never ran on a promise to do anything for the left.) Crippling labor and gutting the new deal was OK because Bill never promised not to do those things. Got it. Why should I vote for your lovely neoliberal candidates again?
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Feb 16, 2017 17:32
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:That's a different loving concept from "he betrayed us!" He never promised you anything, you assholes. You're right that he never promised anything other than mealy-mouthed centrist apologies. It doesn't change the fact that he hired current Tea Party Patriot Dick Morris for his 96 reelection in response to Gingrich's stranglehold on the House and swung hard right. He did not end his presidency on the same platform that he started on, he absolutely did change course completely in his second term, and it's hard to see that as anything but a betrayal. How old were you in the 90s?
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Feb 16, 2017 17:33
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Crowsbeak posted:We are assholes for not wanting starving seniors or unemployed mothers. We are assholes for not wanting the banks to get so big that their casino antics destroy the economy. If we're assholes for that you're a sociopathic creature. No you're assholes for saying stupid poo poo that's not based in history and making up your own personal head cannons to justify it.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:33
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I didn't say that! I said you need to stop the "they betrayed us!!!!!!" poo poo. Bill never promised the left anything. He didn't run as a leftist. He didn't promise leftist policy goals. you are literally going bill didn't promise you poo poo so it's okay that he did lovely things as president. fwiw i don't give a drat about the betrayal argument
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Feb 16, 2017 17:34
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Raskolnikov38 posted:you are literally going bill didn't promise you poo poo so it's okay that he did lovely things as president. fwiw i don't give a drat about the betrayal argument I am not?
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Feb 16, 2017 17:34
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:No you're assholes for saying stupid poo poo that's not based in history and making up your own personal head cannons to justify it. Wait so the attempted destruction of as that was only not done because of the blow job didn't happen? The destruction of welfare didn't happen? The setting is up for 2008 because Bill wanted more praise from financial news didn't happen?
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Feb 16, 2017 17:35
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I am not? I'm not sure how else to read your argument as anything other than apologia for bill's actions
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Feb 16, 2017 17:36
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I'm not sure how else to read your argument as anything other than apologia for bill's actions His posts are nothing more than. "Bill did nothing wrong ".
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Feb 16, 2017 17:37
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I'm not sure how else to read your argument as anything other than apologia for bill's actions I am saying that you can't really say Bill Betrayed Us So We Couldn't Trust Hillary is dumb because it ignores that he never promised you anything in the first place. He did what he said he would do, which was be market-oriented and work with Republicans on stuff like, welfare reform. Hillary, meanwhile, ran on a platform that embraced the left and promised to enact a leftist policy agenda. You're more than welcome to criticize Bill and the Third Way. I generally agree that a lot of that poo poo was hosed up; what I don't agree with is the stupidity of pretending it was some sort of "back stab." BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 17:40
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mcmagic posted:No. I do think she sucks. You just have an ethical obligation to do everything you can do to make sure that an unfit, racist, madman doesn't become president and voting for her falls into that category. By your definition hillary herself is unethical since she angled to have trump as her opponent, and she was too lazy and arrogant to do everything she could to make sure he doesn't win. Also, said non voters may not have realized how hosed up trump was. Claiming they're unethical because they're under informed and detached from politics is p hosed up Lightning Knight posted:I still find it interesting that when you apply the Trolly Problem to voting, tons of people will say it's more ethical/not unethical to not pull the lever. It's not the trolley problem because by throwing the switch for the lesser evil, you encourage them to keep tying people to the tracks. Condiv fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 17:48
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:You're more than welcome to criticize Bill and the Third Way. I generally agree that a lot of that poo poo was hosed up; what I don't agree with is the stupidity of pretending it was some sort of "back stab." You're rabidly defending this extremely reduced narrative that you've invented that nobody's attacking, and it's weird. Clinton's legacy isn't nearly as straightforward as you're making it, and nobody's really arguing with you on that anyway. You should let it go, I think most of the people in this thread probably agree with you on the basic issues we're discussing in here.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:48
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Condiv posted:By your definition hillary herself is unethical since she angled to have trump as her opponent, and she was too lazy and arrogant to do everything she could to make sure he doesn't win.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:49
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:You're rabidly defending this extremely reduced narrative that you've invented that nobody's attacking, and it's weird. Clinton's legacy isn't nearly as straightforward as you're making it, and nobody's really arguing with you on that anyway. You should let it go, I think most of the people in this thread probably agree with you on the basic issues we're discussing in here. Dude, the last 200 posts of this thread have been people crying about how they won't ever support the DNC ever again if they choose Perez over Ellison and it all comes back to the same dumb poo poo about how the "left has been serially betrayed by the Evil Clinton Establishment." It's the fuckin heart of the issue.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:51
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So if Trump ran as the Democrat and the Republicans literally ran Hitler would I still be a terrible person for voting for Jill Stein? Just curious how far one's duty to vote for the lesser evil goes.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:54
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readingatwork posted:So if Trump ran as the Democrat and the Republicans literally ran Hitler would I still be a terrible person for voting for Jill Stein? Just curious how far one's duty to vote for the lesser evil goes. Yes. Next question.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:54
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readingatwork posted:Crippling labor and gutting the new deal was OK because Bill never promised not to do those things. Got it. Phew. Thank god the neoliberal wasn't allowed into office! In the background, a family was being loaded into an ICE deportation wagon. The television across the bar continued its 4 hour report on a chemical spill that blanketed a midwestern town in chlorine gas. The EPA, starved of funds and ethical leadership, praised this as an opportunity for the dying townites to revitalize the local farms and, just maybe, move on up into the city. I mean, just imagine the kind of terrible Free Trade policies she would have supported. They nodded in agreement. One of them paged through the newspaper, past the section detailing the grisly lynching of a trans-student at a local college, past the sidebar that listed the first group of men grabbed by the new federal AntiSodomy laws. The scones were dry. Ew.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:55
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Dude, the last 200 posts of this thread have been people crying about how they won't ever support the DNC ever again if they choose Perez over Ellison and it all comes back to the same dumb poo poo about how the "left has been serially betrayed by the Evil Clinton Establishment." It's the fuckin heart of the issue. fine attacked instead of betrayed also it's only 33 pages  e: damnit you edited it
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Feb 16, 2017 17:55
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mcmagic posted:Sure. You still had an ethical obligation to vote for her. Nope because people may not have realized how hosed up trump was, what with being detached non voters. By insisting voters come to the dems on their own instead of trying to attract voters you only enable mad men like trump, making you unethical too.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:56
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