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davidbix posted:I've never really believed it, myself, though I've long been intrigued by it. And I have my own theories about who was behind the "G. Gordon Liddy" account, if just because of some of the other posts in that thread, who in WWE was known to use aliases online, and who would have a motive to try to smear Stephanie in 2004. someone please spell this out for me
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Aug 12, 2021 17:22
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davidbix posted:There's a really weird Raw match with Al Snow right after The Rock's turn back heel in '98 where he uses a brand new remix for his entrance and goes back to his usual song after he wins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s578pcO2RqE Just a full-blown "Hypnotize" rip-off, god drat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDgLOd5L8As
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Aug 12, 2021 17:44
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forkboy84 posted:Oh, I apologise to Ricky then. Not Robert though, not if he stayed to watch. you know he kept an eye on it 
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Aug 12, 2021 17:55
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davidbix posted:First public mention of it that anyone can recall. Meltzer and others have later said it was already a rumor circulating within WWE for a little while. One thing that everyone always forgets that the story, as posted, was clearly false based on how it addressed Stephanie's age. And it was not a thing that I remember anyone in the thread even believing at the time. It only picked up steam because it was very early in the "Vince won't work with Savage" odyssey and it quickly became clear that he wasn't giving anyone a reason. How much of it had to do with it coming within 18 months or so of the "Stephanie confronts Vince about trafficking her sexually to business associates as a teenager" promo, I have no idea, but I suspect that it played a role to some degree. But by and large, it caught fire because of the complete lack of alternative explanations, to the point that a lot of people in the company believed it. oh my god i completely forgot about "Oliver Knows"
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Aug 12, 2021 17:59
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I mean they also started an incest thing w/Stephanie and Vince...not sure if HHH asked them to kill it for obvious reasons, or if sponsors said "Cut it out, weirdos". On the Vince DVD, it's said that he wanted to be Steph's baby's father. When she was grossed out and said no, he suggested Shane.
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Aug 12, 2021 20:43
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I want to say that it was either during the Invasion (where she was feuding with Vince as the owner of ECW There was a whole string of angles around that time that were both weirdly objectifying and ego-stroking for Steph by making her out to be the most desirable woman on the roster. Now, it's definitely WORSE if it was Vince pushing that, but it's not exactly great if she was doing it herself either.
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Aug 12, 2021 21:32
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) or during her feud with Vince in 2003. Hmm, I don't remember much about that time, let's check Wikip-
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Remember when Vince ordered William Regal to have Undertaker's wife gang raped by a motorcycle gang? They were his actual words.
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Aug 12, 2021 21:47
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Kosmo Gallion posted:Remember when Vince ordered William Regal to have Undertaker's wife gang raped by a motorcycle gang? They were his actual words. Remember when the cliffhanger of an episode of Smackdown was DX dragging Steph into a room for similar purposes but then it turned out it was "just some college cheerleader" so that was fine?
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Aug 12, 2021 21:52
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I have to imagine that the Vince and Savage fallout is probably something as simple as Vince feeling "betrayed" after Savage went to WCW. As for why he "forgave" Hogan for it but not Savage, Hogan is the bigger star and also Vince has always been a complete Hulkamaniac. He probably thought he was doing Savage a favour by demoting him to a commentary role. CombineThresher posted:DJ, roll that back - when did THAT happen? https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/1405021436008448003 KoldPT posted:someone please spell this out for me Paul Heyman used to get blowjobs behind the ECW parking lot at 3am while writing checks to a line of a few wrestlers. That certainly reads like something made up to pump up Heyman for a number of reasons. Heyman would have a motive to put out a "negative" rumor about Stephanie and has a long history of using burners online to steer the narrative. Do I think it's Paul? Not necessarily; not all of the posts feel that way. Do I think there's a good possibility that it was someone or even multiple people in Paul's inner circle? Yeah.
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Aug 12, 2021 21:59
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Now I'm just remembering that very weird segment immediately after Savage left when Vince looked to be trying really hard not to cry on commentary
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Aug 12, 2021 22:04
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Steph went from shrieky to smoker-voice from 2002-2003 and then stayed that way permanently
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Aug 12, 2021 22:08
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D.N. Nation posted:Steph went from shrieky to smoker-voice from 2002-2003 and then stayed that way permanently
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Aug 12, 2021 22:14
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Kosmo Gallion posted:Remember when Vince ordered William Regal to have Undertaker's wife gang raped by a motorcycle gang? They were his actual words. Don't be ridiculous, that never happened. It was Paul Heyman he was talking to.
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Aug 12, 2021 22:19
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davidbix posted:That certainly reads like something made up to pump up Heyman for a number of reasons. Heyman would have a motive to put out a "negative" rumor about Stephanie and has a long history of using burners online to steer the narrative. Do I think it's Paul? Not necessarily; not all of the posts feel that way. Do I think there's a good possibility that it was someone or even multiple people in Paul's inner circle? Yeah. What was Gabe doing in 2004?
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Aug 12, 2021 22:21
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davidbix posted:Here's the thing: It was never an issue until...late 2003 or thereabouts? He repeatedly tried to get Savage back when his WCW contracts were up. Savage was interviewed in...I forget whether it was WWE Magazine or SmackDown Magazine at that point, but whichever it was, they interviewed him in 2003. It was not particularly long after that when the "he's too crazy to work with" stories started being reported. Something happened, we just don't know what, and it's something Vince clearly hasn't been willing to share. In the unlikely event that there's any truth to the Stephanie thing, it would involve Vince finding out years after the fact. With this information in mind it seems like a private disagreement. Hogan knew how to play his cards right with Vince and he went along with it every now and then, whereas everything I hear about Savage indicates that he was a bit of a self-destructive nutcase, especially during and after his WCW run; maybe he said too much when talking to Vince and Vince felt personally slighted by it? Vince seems to get really emotional when he feels that someone has "betrayed" or been "ungrateful" to him. Who knows I guess. As an aside I'm not sure what would have been made of Savage in WWE in 2003. Hogan started off hot on his return but interest dwindled super quick. Piper was visibly past it and rambling more than ever. Savage's WCW run had generally been bad, and while I haven't seen it in a while I seem to recall his brief appearance in TNA (which perhaps happened as a result of whatever blew up between him and Vince? idk) being absolutely horrible. EDIT: Wrestlecrap's take on Macho Man in TNA: https://wrestlecrap.com/inductions/induction-machofinalmatch/ Hedgehog Pie fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Aug 12, 2021 |
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Aug 12, 2021 22:32
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DeathChicken posted:Now I'm just remembering that very weird segment immediately after Savage left when Vince looked to be trying really hard not to cry on commentary
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Aug 13, 2021 00:37
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Savage was 42 when he left the WWF because Vince thought he was "too old". The Miz is 40. Randy Orton is 41. AJ Styles is 44. Bobby Lashley is 45. Edge is 47.
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Aug 13, 2021 00:43
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Hedgehog Pie posted:With this information in mind it seems like a private disagreement. Hogan knew how to play his cards right with Vince and he went along with it every now and then, whereas everything I hear about Savage indicates that he was a bit of a self-destructive nutcase, especially during and after his WCW run; maybe he said too much when talking to Vince and Vince felt personally slighted by it? Vince seems to get really emotional when he feels that someone has "betrayed" or been "ungrateful" to him. Who knows I guess.
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Aug 13, 2021 00:51
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What did Vince decide to stop using Savage in the first place? "He was too old" never sat right with me. Vince needed star power when Hogan left. Savage was a star and could still go.
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Aug 13, 2021 01:00
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Kosmo Gallion posted:What did Vince decide to stop using Savage in the first place? "He was too old" never sat right with me. Vince needed star power when Hogan left. Savage was a star and could still go. He thought he was too old. That is the reason. He thought people over 40 were ancient. If Vince knew how badly Randy wanted to have sex with teenagers he'd have kept him around.
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Aug 13, 2021 01:00
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Davros1 posted:Savage was 42 when he left the WWF because Vince thought he was "too old". The Miz is 40. Randy Orton is 41. AJ Styles is 44. Bobby Lashley is 45. Edge is 47. Vince is in his 70s so 40 doesn't seem that old to him anymore
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Aug 13, 2021 01:01
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Was HBK’s “icon who can still go” line a dig at WCW?
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Aug 13, 2021 01:06
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Kosmo Gallion posted:What did Vince decide to stop using Savage in the first place? "He was too old" never sat right with me. Vince needed star power when Hogan left. Savage was a star and could still go.
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Aug 13, 2021 01:35
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davidbix posted:To add to what MRT said: Vince started trying to move away from Hogan when Hogan was just 36. He fully moved away from Hogan when Hogan was about to turn 40. Savage was not the first time Vince decided someone who wasn't that old was way too old. (Also: Remember that it's a different era where nobody would dare suggest that Hogan and Savage shave their heads to obscure their badly receding hairlines because being a bald white guy wasn't really fashionable yet, so there was nothing to offset what was presumably a byproduct of the ridiculous level of steroid usage at their peaks.) Maybe I didn't explain my question correctly. Why did Vince retire Savage who was a proven star/draw to gamble on Bret/Shawn/Diesel? Vince wasn't all powerful and stil had to somewhat avoid making stupid decisions. It seems idiotic that Vince would voluntarily retire Savage in 93/94 when business was at it's worst.
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Aug 13, 2021 01:45
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I mean, did Vince think Savage was a draw?
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Aug 13, 2021 01:47
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Who else did he have in 93?
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Aug 13, 2021 01:50
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Kosmo Gallion posted:Maybe I didn't explain my question correctly. Why did Vince retire Savage who was a proven star/draw to gamble on Bret/Shawn/Diesel? Vince wasn't all powerful and stil had to somewhat avoid making stupid decisions. It seems idiotic that Vince would voluntarily retire Savage in 93/94 when business was at it's worst. Because he was old. That's the reason. He didn't think old guys could draw anymore and wanted to go with a youth movement. He wasn't even using Savage in a drawing position while he still had him.
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Aug 13, 2021 01:51
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Kosmo Gallion posted:Who else did he have in 93? Didn't matter. Vince is always right, in his own mind. Vince would rather lose money on his idea than make money with someone else's.
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Aug 13, 2021 01:52
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The age thing aside, it was probably also part optics. By that point, Hogan and Savage had been mainstays at top levels for 8-10 years in the company. Their age plus the visual of having these guys who were basically doing the same thing in 1985 might have had something to do with it, too. Gotta freshen up the product every once in a while, he just happened to try to do it all at once like a band-aid instead of gradually phasing guys out.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:14
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Ganso Bomb posted:The age thing aside, it was probably also part optics. By that point, Hogan and Savage had been mainstays at top levels for 8-10 years in the company. Their age plus the visual of having these guys who were basically doing the same thing in 1985 might have had something to do with it, too. Gotta freshen up the product every once in a while, he just happened to try to do it all at once like a band-aid instead of gradually phasing guys out. Imagine thinking being in the promotion for 10 years meant they had been there forever.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:21
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Seams posted:Was HBK’s “icon who can still go” line a dig at WCW? Did Shawn use that line, I only remember it from a Cornette promo? But yes, probably at Flair, which is hilarious, because Flair was still capable of performing at a decently high level for about 15 years after that.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:38
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He did, which I only remember because it made it in as one of his lines in the terrible WWF Attitude game
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Aug 13, 2021 02:46
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Dawgstar posted:Imagine thinking being in the promotion for 10 years meant they had been there forever. I think it's less the amount of time and more the visuals. Video from 1984 looks way shittier and "old" than video looked in 1994. Obviously it's not a problem now when everything is HD and has been for a while, but when the highlight reels of your biggest names are filled with old-looking clips it probably fuels the "they're too old" argument.
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Aug 13, 2021 02:50
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Ganso Bomb posted:I think it's less the amount of time and more the visuals. Video from 1984 looks way shittier and "old" than video looked in 1994. Obviously it's not a problem now when everything is HD and has been for a while, but when the highlight reels of your biggest names are filled with old-looking clips it probably fuels the "they're too old" argument. That's true and it certainly didn't fit in with the Dunn-lead 'look' that the 90's gave us. Why some of those clips had Hogan and Savage in what looked like something close to wrestling and not sports entertainment so we couldn't have that.
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Aug 13, 2021 03:23
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Gaz-L posted:Did Shawn use that line, I only remember it from a Cornette promo? But yes, probably at Flair, which is hilarious, because Flair was still capable of performing at a decently high level for about 15 years after that. Might've been at Piper, who wore the ICON shirt around that time and did a lot of promos about the WWF thinking he was too old.
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Aug 13, 2021 03:27
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davidbix posted:But this is the only time we know of Vince completely shutting down over an issue with talent. And started almost a decade after Savage left. Maybe Vince invented something in his mind, but whatever happened, it seems like there's a guarantee that it wasn't the usual wrestler/promoter BS. I mean this hypothetical disagreement taking place in the early 2000s that I came up with. Either way, I feel like Vince was probably extra sensitive with regards to his '80s stars. Maybe coke hangover, idk. Savage being "too old" in the New Generation is both hilarious and sad. I know that 21st century Internet fans are 21st century Internet fans, but the fans were rabid for Savage at the end of the '93 rumble. Bret vs Savage with no Hogan nonsense at Wrestlemania might've been really good. 
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Aug 13, 2021 04:46
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I mean this hypothetical disagreement taking place in the early 2000s that I came up with. Either way, I feel like Vince was probably extra sensitive with regards to his '80s stars. Maybe coke hangover, idk. But...yeah, I just don't see a scenario where Savage being weird and demanding in '03-'04 was the catalyst for the way he was handled from then-on.
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Aug 13, 2021 07:05
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thinking about how savage is used if he had jumped in 1997 is interesting. Is Vince unable to help himself and continues to not put Savage in a pushed position?
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Aug 13, 2021 07:21
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Gaz-L posted:Did Shawn use that line, I only remember it from a Cornette promo? But yes, probably at Flair, which is hilarious, because Flair was still capable of performing at a decently high level for about 15 years after that. I googled around a bit and it looks like he said it in the leadup to Survivor Series 97, which means it might've been a reference to the 'Age in the Cage' WCW match from Halloween Havoc 97.
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Aug 13, 2021 07:25
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I kinda think Vince wasn't entirely wrong for trying to move Savage into an announcing/occasional wrestler role. His body might not have been broken down, but I'm struggling to think of any really good matches he had in WCW-maybe a couple with Flair? I think he was pretty clearly on the downswing as a worker and he'd best have been used in the role Vince saw him in.
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Aug 13, 2021 17:37
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