2021: Linux on the desktop, Free Software 9/11

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > 2021: Linux on the desktop, Free Software 9/11

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SlowBloke: Aug 14, 2017

pseudorandom name posted:

the revamped IO stack that makes DirectStorage fast

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-developer-preview-now-available/

DirectStorage is coming to windows 10 too so it�s not a win11 improvement, since most of the kernel code is shared I�m not expecting the performance to be so divergent.

SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Aug 7, 2021

# ? Aug 7, 2021 12:17

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 04:58

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

i run windows 11 daily atm, and my take remains that it is a small tweak that exists mostly to demarcate ending support for some things, still bet that windows 10 will be updated in parallel (and thus stay pretty much exactly the same as 11) until its eol.

which may be annoying but is hardly unreasonable.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 12:39

Wiggly Wayne DDS: Sep 11, 2010

infernal machines posted:

i know what that part meant, i'm wondering how it's in any way related to claims about improved security from requiring tpm?

if you don't require tpm, you don't get improved security because the install base is completely fractured and you can't enforce the new security baseline. people who cannot or refuse to upgrade would not be getting improved security either way. but people who can, will.

there will absolutely be gerybeard grognards who insist on running windows 7 on a core 2 duo well into the 2030s because "it still works", they should not be a consideration of any kind for product development though

forcing cheap as poo poo oems to start including tpm on their $299 best buy specials if they want to be able to sell them with windows 11 is literally the only way that hardware is ever going to end up in consumer systems.

we were agreeing on all counts for what it's worth, i had some half-assed wording about the userbase who redistribute modified windows builds then act shocked when they won't update properly

pseudorandom name posted:

the details of DirectStorage are still under NDA, but it appears to be some pre-authored data decompression compute shaders, an io_uring clone, and (only in Windows 11) an updated IO stack to make their io_uring clone useful

i wasn't aware of there being any generic data compressor involved given their testbed is the xbox consoles where they only implemented decompression for specific texture formats. at least they're looking to support as many ssd controllers as they can

rjmccall posted:

if you mean the armv8.3 jscvt instruction, to be clear, that is useful for js implementations even without a jit

there are also some efforts to provide better intraprocess jit sandboxing but those often aren�t instructions per se

i was thinking of the arm improvements, which isn't really that relevant to windows but i'm glad that microsoft are willing to test base assumptions on requirements like this to try and improve security

Sapozhnik posted:

from what i remember of a hackbunny post several years back the main problem is some amazingly ham-fisted locking that's built into NT's IO semantics, although that's by no means the only problem with it.

ya i remember their posts about it in the post and its a convoluted mess that they've been working around and avoiding fixing.

Sapozhnik posted:

I hope hackbunny is doing ok

# ? Aug 7, 2021 14:19

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

oh yeah, this thread in particular is great for the sort of brain genius that follows tweak guides and runs random exes off the internet to hack out functionality without the first clue what they're doing

# ? Aug 7, 2021 14:33

Workaday Wizard: Oct 23, 2009; by Pragmatica

i love hackbunny's posting and i hope them all the best wherever they are

# ? Aug 7, 2021 16:18

The_Franz: Aug 8, 2003

Workaday Wizard posted:

i love hackbunny's posting and i hope them all the best wherever they are

yeah, hackbunny's effortposts on windows internals were great

# ? Aug 7, 2021 16:23

pseudorandom name: May 6, 2007

SlowBloke posted:

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-developer-preview-now-available/

DirectStorage is coming to windows 10 too so it�s not a win11 improvement, since most of the kernel code is shared I�m not expecting the performance to be so divergent.

did you even read this blog post? it says exactly what I said.

quote:

DirectStorage features can be broken down into:

The new DirectStorage API programming model that provides a DX12-style batched submission/completion calling pattern, relieving apps from the need to individually manage thousands of IO requests/completion notifications per second

GPU decompression providing super-fast asset decompression for load time and streaming scenarios (coming in a later preview)

Storage stack optimizations: On Windows 11, this consists of an upgraded OS storage stack that unlocks the full potential of DirectStorage, and on Windows 10, games will still benefit from the more efficient use of the legacy OS storage stack

This means that any game built on DirectStorage will benefit from the new programming model and GPU decompression technology on Windows 10, version 1909 and up. Additionally, because Windows 11 was built with DirectStorage in mind, games running on Windows 11 benefit further from new storage stack optimizations. The API runtime implementation and the GPU decompression technology is delivered via the DirectStorage SDK, and ships with your game. As a game developer, you need only implement DirectStorage once into your engine, and all the applicable benefits will be automatically applied and scaled appropriately for gamers.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 19:35

SlowBloke: Aug 14, 2017

pseudorandom name posted:

did you even read this blog post? it says exactly what I said.

I did read that, I�m just skeptical that the improvements mentioned will be significant enough. If it was substantial they would have flaunted in a more evident way than �upgraded�

# ? Aug 8, 2021 10:42

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

significant enough for what though? for people to be willing to pay $0 for windows 11 when microsoft pushes it to the update channel?

# ? Aug 8, 2021 12:02

SlowBloke: Aug 14, 2017

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

significant enough for what though? for people to be willing to pay $0 for windows 11 when microsoft pushes it to the update channel?

Significant enough to warrant owners of intel 6xxx processors to upgrade for instance.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 12:04

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

dare say it has been 20 years since the last time there was an os update even distantly worth buying a new computer for, so don't hold your breath for this feature list to swell to that degree.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 12:15

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

SlowBloke posted:

Significant enough to warrant owners of intel 6xxx processors to upgrade for instance.

people using five generation old cpus probably don't care about bleeding edge performance and features enough to pay to upgrade. you've cracked the case detective!

# ? Aug 8, 2021 14:27

mystes: May 31, 2006

Lol even Charles Petzold is mad at Microsoft for sticking ads everywhere: http://www.charlespetzold.com/blog/2021/08/Screw-You-Microsoft-Edge.html

# ? Aug 8, 2021 23:13

The_Franz: Aug 8, 2003

infernal machines posted:

people using five generation old cpus probably don't care about bleeding edge performance and features enough to pay to upgrade. you've cracked the case detective!

sandy bridge cpus are 10 years old and still more than adequate for common tasks

# ? Aug 8, 2021 23:16

FlapYoJacks: Feb 12, 2009

The_Franz posted:

sandy bridge cpus are 10 years old and still more than adequate for common tasks

I upgraded my dad from a Sandy bridge i3 to a Sandy Bridge i7 last year and windows is perfectly happy running everything he needs it to, which is photoshop and lightroom. He has no reason nor desire to buy a new PC.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 23:18

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

there's another 4 years before you need to upgrade at least, and there are far stupider things about windows 11 than the attempt to establish a new hardware baseline.

# ? Aug 8, 2021 23:41

pseudorandom name: May 6, 2007

SlowBloke posted:

I did read that, I�m just skeptical that the improvements mentioned will be significant enough. If it was substantial they would have flaunted in a more evident way than �upgraded�

oh, sorry, I completely misunderstood which point you were making

its probably a WIP for the next Server release, and probably requires a happy path only available in the stock Microsoft NVMe drive without Storage Spaces or whatever and without (the wrong kind of) virus scanners etc.

the IoRing API write-up that was on hackernews a while back only supported read operations, so unless write support is coming later it may be a special case where NTFS is involved in the beginning to figure out the locations of file blocks and then the filesystem driver isn't involved at all on subsequent reads or something equally hacky. maybe it isn't coherent with the regular cache, who know

# ? Aug 9, 2021 05:35

Lysidas: Jul 26, 2002; John Diefenbaker is a madman who thinks he's John Diefenbaker.; Pillbug

wonder how directstorage is going to affect proton not-emulation of games on linux, maybe just an additional windows API that needs to be emulated properly just like all the others? so those wouldnt work until that support is implemented in whatever layer (wine? proton? dont remember what parts of the stack have which names)

# ? Aug 12, 2021 14:27

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

Lysidas posted:

wonder how directstorage is going to affect proton not-emulation of games on linux, maybe just an additional windows API that needs to be emulated properly just like all the others? so those wouldnt work until that support is implemented in whatever layer (wine? proton? dont remember what parts of the stack have which names)

presumably will need a bit of dev work yeah, but just redirecting the calls to "normal" io will probably be a trivial exercise.

# ? Aug 12, 2021 14:30

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

presumably will need a bit of dev work yeah, but just redirecting the calls to "normal" io will probably be a trivial exercise.

what could it take to reimplement another platform's io layer, 10 man-hours? 20? 40 at the most

# ? Aug 12, 2021 15:03

Chris Knight: Jun 5, 2002; me @ ur posts; Fun Shoe

https://twitter.com/apenwarr/status/1426258160927612928

# ? Aug 13, 2021 21:13

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Chris Knight posted:

https://twitter.com/apenwarr/status/1426258160927612928

lol at the last part, sadly

# ? Aug 13, 2021 22:12

Khorne: May 1, 2002

Carthag Tuek posted:

lol at the last part, sadly

microsoft's api documentation is great when you can figure out the api exists and get to the right one of their 7 abandoned sites for the product that all make conflicting claims.

then you realize you can do more with the api than they documented but it's not supported behavior despite being necessary to even interact with the product

-sharepoint

# ? Aug 13, 2021 23:21

mystes: May 31, 2006

This thing I just stumbled across:

quote:

Introduced in September 2020, Microsoft Dataverse for Teams is a built-in, low-code data platform for Microsoft Teams that empowers users to build custom apps, bots, and flows in Microsoft Teams by using Power Apps, Power Virtual Agents, and Power Automate. Dataverse for Teams�built on Microsoft Dataverse�provides relational data storage, rich data types, enterprise-grade governance, and one-click solution deployment to the Microsoft Teams app store. More information: Dataverse for Teams overview

The Dataverse for Teams environment is automatically created for the selected team when you create an app or bot in Microsoft Teams for the first time or install a Power Apps app from the app catalog for the first time. The Dataverse for Teams environment is used to store, manage, and share team-specific data, apps, and flows. Each team can have one environment, and all data, apps, bots, and flows created with the Power Apps app inside a team are available from that team's Dataverse for Teams database.

So this is microsoft's equivalent to discord bots but it's based on Power Apps?

It seems like every time I look at this stuff they have more weird low code platforms but do they actually have any customers using it?

# ? Aug 13, 2021 23:34

Chris Knight: Jun 5, 2002; me @ ur posts; Fun Shoe

quote:

flows created with the Power Apps app inside a team are available from that team's Dataverse for Teams database.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 01:03

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Khorne posted:

microsoft's api documentation is great

Khorne posted:

when you can figure out the api exists and get to the right one of their 7 abandoned sites for the product that all make conflicting claims.

then you realize you can do more with the api than they documented but it's not supported behavior despite being necessary to even interact with the product

-sharepoint

# ? Aug 14, 2021 02:02

Drastic Actions: Apr 7, 2009; FUCK YOU!
GET PUMPED!; Nap Ghost

mystes posted:

It seems like every time I look at this stuff they have more weird low code platforms but do they actually have any customers using it?

it�s nearly all enterprise but yeah.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 03:45

Bored Online: May 25, 2009; We don't need Rome telling us what to do.

DoomTrainPhD posted:

I upgraded my dad from a Sandy bridge i3 to a Sandy Bridge i7 last year and windows is perfectly happy running everything he needs it to, which is photoshop and lightroom. He has no reason nor desire to buy a new PC.

he doesnt know what it feels like to rip threads

# ? Aug 14, 2021 07:21

FlapYoJacks: Feb 12, 2009

Bored Online posted:

he doesnt know what it feels like to rip threads

I do though. :getin:

# ? Aug 14, 2021 07:59

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Bored Online posted:

he doesnt know what it feels like to rip threads

you can buy a 1st gen threadripper off newegg for like $120 right now with a coupon code

not on the windows 11 supported hardware list though

# ? Aug 14, 2021 14:00

Khorne: May 1, 2002

infernal machines posted:

you can buy a 1st gen threadripper off newegg for like $120 right now with a coupon code

not on the windows 11 supported hardware list though

despite having 100% more cores it's only 30% faster than a 3rd gen 8c in all core workloads that favor the 1950x

# ? Aug 14, 2021 14:17

mystes: May 31, 2006

Khorne posted:

despite having 100% more cores it's only 30% faster than a 3rd gen 8c in all core workloads that favor the 1950x

The performance has gotten way better... I'm still using a first gen Ryzen and would love upgrade but it seems like various computer parts have been stupidly expensive for the past 1-2 years.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 17:45

Chris Knight: Jun 5, 2002; me @ ur posts; Fun Shoe

lol
https://twitter.com/hadip/status/1426587406094934016

https://twitter.com/hadip/status/1426587408267501568

# ? Aug 15, 2021 19:42

Cold on a Cob: Feb 6, 2006; i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually; College Slice

imagine destroying your life for internet explorer lmfao

# ? Aug 15, 2021 20:00

mystes: May 31, 2006

Cold on a Cob posted:

imagine destroying your life for internet explorer lmfao

Imagine destroying your life in the 1990s to avoid a future where windows is reduced to a buggy container for web apps and then going into a coma until 2021.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 20:03

Cold on a Cob: Feb 6, 2006; i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually; College Slice

lol he tries to walk it back a bit later but that's just horseshit, he was absolutely glorifying it

# ? Aug 15, 2021 20:20

carry on then: Jul 10, 2010; by VideoGames
(and can't post for 10 years!)

that whole thread is him glorifying a bunch of incidental poo poo then fuzzing over what happened afterwards lol

# ? Aug 15, 2021 21:03

Cold on a Cob: Feb 6, 2006; i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually; College Slice

lol

https://twitter.com/ebwilford/status/1426964448632246276?s=20

# ? Aug 15, 2021 21:10

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Cold on a Cob posted:

lol

https://twitter.com/ebwilford/status/1426964448632246276?s=20

oof, lmao

# ? Aug 16, 2021 07:42

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 04:58

Workaday Wizard: Oct 23, 2009; by Pragmatica

grind culture cringe

# ? Aug 16, 2021 09:02

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > 2021: Linux on the desktop, Free Software 9/11

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