|
The gall some people have to not like a thing!
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 09:45 |
|
|
I enjoy Tragedy Looper, but I 100% agree with the token hate. Next time I plan on playing, I'm going to pick up some generic counter tokens, either thin plastic ones or those colored stones with flat bases, to use instead, because seeing a mishmash of dark-color-on-black-background bits of cardboard on a character is really tough to parse at first glance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:14
|
|
|
The gall of people asking other people why they don't like a thing! In a discussion forum, of all places! For shame!
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:14
|
|
|
The only true alternative Tragedy Looper artwork:
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:15
|
|
|
I can understand that people have differing opinions on art; I really don't like the awful art on the original Glory to Rome. That being said, the art doesn't affect the mechanics and I really like GtR's mechanics. The difference is that Tragedy Looper doesn't actually have bad art; as Madmarker said, the art is actually really well done. Now, there is definitely a stigma about anime outside of Japan and that's totally fine, but unless a person finds anime art in and of itself objectionable and will simply refuse to ever interact with it, I'm running out of ways to justify the objections. I think BL put it best.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:16
|
|
|
Zark the Damned posted:The only true alternative Tragedy Looper artwork: The final stage is called "unmasking" Turns out it was old man Jenkins all along!
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:17
|
|
|
As someone with only a passing interest in Tragedy Looper, so I've been on no side of this discussion, I would pick the alternative art over the original very simply because this discussion, the one you're having now, the art style would not even be mentioned if I had to take the game out and ask people to play it. Its different, so its a talking point. I wouldn't say I'm an anime fan, I have one DVD of one for nostalgia of French TV as a kid, but I know the exact conversation I'd be having if I showed some people that box. I'm not there to start a perception on other cultures discussion, so I'll go for the more 'normal' looking box. And I'm not surprised if the publishers thought the same thing and thought the game would be given more chance with this art style.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:19
|
|
|
Anime has a lot of loving stigma, it doesn't matter if theres no tentacle rape and scantily clad school girls, a lot of people associate it with those things and feel creepy playing a game with that style. I'm not accusing Tragedy Looper of those things, but I know if I brought it to my group people would be a lot more open and accepting of the new style as opposed to the anime art. Alternatively, anime is in line with Yu-gi-oh, and those are the worst sorts of gamers in my local scene.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:21
|
|
|
And back on to what I came to post about. I was playing a VASSAL game of Twilight Struggle with a friend and it crashed on the start of turn 7 (because I Missile Envied him in Headline I think). We decided to finish this tense game in person. I tried to access the discard piles in the game but in this newer version it won't let me. Maybe because its crashed, but I can't see what cards have bee used already, which would let me work out what cards are left and set the game up accordingly. Is there an obvious way I'm missing to get that info? Or can I pull the info out of the save game somehow, maybe the text is somewhere? Any help on this much appreciated!
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:23
|
|
|
It's great that goons are super progressive about promoting non-western art styles, but is it really that shocking to hear that John Q. Public still perceives Anime as a weird niche thing for nerds? Also, the proposed alternative art for Tragedy Looper looks bland as poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:23
|
|
|
Boardgaming is a weird niche for nerds, it's just that nerds are really loving good at stratifying their nerdiness and group people as 'good nerds' and 'bad nerds'. It's why I call people that play american-style game as 'RPGers with low imagination'.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:26
|
|
|
Broken Loose posted:What I don't understand about the hatred for Tragedy Looper's "anime" "theme" is that (A) they're okay with the exact same game with the exact same setting and the exact same characters and the exact same everything except with smaller eyes and (B) the game is made in goddamn Japan. Does that mean that if I dislike impressionist paintings that I'm xenophobic against the French? What about disliking abstract paintings and the Spanish? Or disliking Country music and the entire southern half of the United States? People can dislike an art style. Personally, I don't like it when characters are hard to distinguish visually. Don't get me wrong, I'd still play the game because mechanics are >>> theme or art style, but that's not true for everyone, and I know plenty of people who would thoroughly enjoy if everything was ripped straight out of Back to the Future or something like that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:31
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:Boardgaming is a weird niche for nerds, it's just that nerds are really loving good at stratifying their nerdiness and group people as 'good nerds' and 'bad nerds'. It's why I call people that play american-style game as 'RPGers with low imagination'. Actually nerds are bad at it that's why the geek social fallacies exist. I wear my anime shaming as a badge of pride.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:31
|
|
|
Foehammer posted:It's great that goons are super progressive about promoting non-western art styles, but is it really that shocking to hear that John Q. Public still perceives Anime as a weird niche thing for nerds? I always assumed that John Q. Public would associate anime with Dragonball Z or Sailor Moon. One wouldn't really know about the weirder stuff unless you dug into it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:31
|
|
|
Dirk the Average posted:Or disliking Country music and the entire southern half of the United States? Uhhhh
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:32
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:Boardgaming is a weird niche for nerds Yes, which is why it's easier to trick your friends into playing boardgames if you minimize the number of stigmas to overcome.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:34
|
|
|
Foehammer posted:Yes, which is why it's easier to trick your friends into playing boardgames if you minimize the number of stigmas to overcome.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:35
|
|
|
I think that the Japanese designer of Tragedy Looper should have made the game in a more traditional western style. My friends are offended when our games don't feature european colonial themes and lack beautiful artwork like the Harem card or the Ratcatcher occupation.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:36
|
|
|
This is exactly the same argument people used the last time there was an argument about TragLoop art, and last time it was correctly pointed out that John Q. Public doesn't know enough about anime to give a poo poo, this whole "Normal People Think Anime Is All School Girl Tentacle Rape" is just nerds projecting their own nonsense onto the general population to justify their own xenophobia.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:37
|
|
|
fozzy fosbourne posted:I think that the Japanese designer of Tragedy Looper should have made the game in a more traditional western style. My friends are offended when our games don't feature european colonial themes and lack beautiful artwork like the Harem card or the Ratcatcher occupation. If Japan can take our pizza and put mayonnaise on it because that's what Japanese people will buy, we can change the art in their games to something westerners will buy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:42
|
|
|
fozzy fosbourne posted:I think that the Japanese designer of Tragedy Looper should have made the game in a more traditional western style. My friends are offended when our games don't feature european colonial themes and lack beautiful artwork like the Harem card or the Ratcatcher occupation.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:42
|
|
|
OH MY GOD SHUT UP ABOUT ANIME ALREADY
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:43
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:Holy poo poo you better not diss the harem card, it's a work of art I think that's the problem. Seriously this discussion is dumb. The art has stigmas attached to it. Great. Who are you trying to impress by being grossed out by it? The art in the game is inoffensive. StashAugustine posted:OH MY GOD SHUT UP ABOUT ANIME ALREADY And this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:44
|
|
|
Its not even about any of that. Its very simply the publisher trying to work out whether a different art style would positively affect perception and sales. While I agree on the whole the public probably doesn't associate anime style with the worst elements, there are plenty of reasons why they might think going more conventional art would increase accessibility. I was going to say market penetration but come on, this is anime we're talking here. Other mediums make appearance changes across regions, there shouldn't be any shock when a board game does it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:44
|
|
|
Tevery Best posted:gently caress you, I hate you. What about Love Letter? If you don't dig the "courting a princess" thing you can go play the Batman version. I'm sure there are plenty of games out there with successful alternate themes if you count the usual zombie/cthulu/whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:44
|
|
|
OmegaGoo posted:I think that's the problem. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:47
|
|
|
Esoteric joke, sorry. I mean, what I think the problem is that it is "art" as a noun, but is it "art" as a concept? ... I'm gonna go hide in a corner now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:50
|
|
|
OmegaGoo posted:Seriously this discussion is dumb. The art has stigmas attached to it. Great. Who are you trying to impress by being grossed out by it? The art in the game is inoffensive. Nobody's trying to impress anyone. The question was posed and people answered  I think there's a reasonable position in between "who gives a poo poo" and "you must hate japanese people".
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:52
|
|
|
That leg still mesmerizes me to this day.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:52
|
|
|
It could be worse... (OK I know it's not Harem, I suspect that one may be NSFW)
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:55
|
|
|
Zark the Damned posted:It could be worse... Now THAT art is loving off putting. 
Madmarker fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jun 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:07
|
|
|
bobvonunheil posted:Is it just 'It's WH40K' you have a problem with theme-wise or is there something else? YES. Here's a slightly but really not at all controversial claim: Warhammer 40,000 has no theme. It's just every single fiction trope thrown into a blender. It's Star Trek, Star Wars, the Silmarillion, Alien, Aliens, Terminator, Predator, Mad Max, Starship Troopers, King Arthur, goddamn literally Rambo, some 40-year-old British dude's idea of "Japanime" robots, Dungeon & Dragons, Dracula, Zombies, Norse legends, Jesus Christ and a great deal of the rest of the Bible, Lensman, Wolverine, Wolfman, Monty loving Python, zombies, the Matrix, and drat near every single other fiction property combined in a single setting with no regard for executing it well or actually advancing the storyline other than "everything exists and it sucks." Even worse? Like 0.001% of 40k lore and fiction is actually good*, but unlike every single other property that has huge chunks of poo poo in it, people just go "ahh 40k's cool" without any sense of irony. No Star Wars fan in their right mind would say, "Star Wars is great and I love it," no, they'd work their way around the prequels and Ewoks and Ziro the Hutt and whatever EU books they hate. I don't say, "I love Star Trek;" I say, "I love Deep Space 9 and most of TNG," because I am very well aware that there's 7 loving seasons of Janeway, 4 seasons of Enterprise, and 7 terrible movies out of a total of 12. I very much don't like the majority of Star Trek. 40k is 99.999% poo poo. Most of it is Grey Knights bathing in period blood because it's "pure," Blood Angels fistbumping Necrons, a decade's worth of writing about an entire species dedicated to rape, Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau, Marneus Calgar being a Mary Sue, 4chan memes, and multilasermultilasermultilaser. If a cook made a dish using every ingredient in the kitchen, you cannot say that the meal is good because he used your favorite ingredient. Even worse, it's disingenuous to claim that there are good parts you can lick off because half the thing is spoiled, diseased, and burned and seriously what is wrong with you people? It's a bad setting, it's written poorly, the vast and overwhelming majority of the lore is awful, there is no writer interest in advancing the plot in a meaningful way, and nothing about it holds any entertainment value other than trying to enjoy it ironically. I love Super Robot anime, and I'm well aware there is a difference between something that is good and something that is Awesome. Overuse of skulls and purity seals is not awesome. *It bears restating-- due to the grapeshot nature of 40k fiction (that there's a near-infinite amount of it and a tiny fraction of it is good), yes, that means there's probably enough good stuff to fill, like, 1 book. Read The Fall of Malvolion, a short story by Dan Abnett. It's not perfect but it's pretty drat good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:08
|
|
|
Wait, do people have a problem with Argent's art style? That looks like a quality of anime art as embarassing as Tragedy Looper, but I'm only going off pics and videos I've seen though, so maybe it's better than person.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:18
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:The gall of people asking other people why they don't like a thing! I'm just amazed at how defensive yo guys got over animes, like the french edition would make pikachu cry. It's cool that it was explained that folks shouldn't worry about actual problematic stuff that could scare people away, but it turned into this weird crusade aganst having a preference. Some people just dislike anime as an aesthetic, or genre (loosely speaking), just as some dislike cthulhu, or rennaisance italy or warhammer or whatever. It's ok to like some things less than others. Like, no one felt the need to complain about, say, pret-a-porter being unnecessarily shunned due to it's theme (or the shameful reskin in the works) or the pandering awkwar reskinning that is Lords of Xidit, but besmirching otaku honor is where half the thread draws the line. I think calling people xenophobes for not enjoying an art style is just as dumb as claiming dislike of reggae is racism. I, for one, am happy for the new edition, because the SyFy channel show look is less immediately nerdy than animes and therefore more accessible to normal folk, which goes against the general trend to needlessly nerdify everything. PS. There is a discussion to be had on whether theme and/or aesthetics should stand in path enjoying a mechanically sound game and where the line should be drawn, but so far this isn't that discussion.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:22
|
|
|
I actually do wish Pret-a-Porter would get reprinted without being about VIDYA GAMES.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:24
|
|
|
Lichtenstein posted:I'm just amazed at how defensive yo guys got over animes, like the french edition would make pikachu cry. It's cool that it was explained that folks shouldn't worry about actual problematic stuff that could scare people away, but it turned into this weird crusade aganst having a preference. Some people just dislike anime as an aesthetic, or genre (loosely speaking), just as some dislike cthulhu, or rennaisance italy or warhammer or whatever. It's ok to like some things less than others. that's because i've never played pret-a-porter or lords of xidit and don't give a gently caress in hell about them but tragedy looper's good and innovative and seeing people write it off because it gives them flashbacks to the uguu wars is loving stupid
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:26
|
|
|
Lichtenstein posted:PS. There is a discussion to be had on whether theme and/or aesthetics should stand in path enjoying a mechanically sound game and where the line should be drawn, but so far this isn't that discussion. I am willing to play the new FFG 40k game in spite of all those words I just posted. Please learn from my example.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:27
|
|
|
Dre2Dee2 posted:Wait, do people have a problem with Argent's art style? That looks like a quality of anime art as embarassing as Tragedy Looper, but I'm only going off pics and videos I've seen though, so maybe it's better than person. I'm not thrilled by the art style, but there's so much to focus on in the game that people quickly forget that the art is even there. The only thing that I find really off-putting about it is that one of the headmaster characters looks like a prepubescent girl but is actually a several thousand year old dryad or something who just did the dryad equivalent of reincarnating or somesuch. I guess the big difference to me is that Traglooper has a big focus and emphasis on the characters where the art can make it ambiguous as to who is who, while in Argent the art just exists as a side thing and it's all about the iconography on the cards once you're into the swing of things. Hell, beyond the starting character cards/spells, I can't match a single supporter/voter to their card's text.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:31
|
|
|
Lichtenstein posted:I'm just amazed at how defensive yo guys got over animes, like the french edition would make pikachu cry. It's cool that it was explained that folks shouldn't worry about actual problematic stuff that could scare people away, but it turned into this weird crusade aganst having a preference. Some people just dislike anime as an aesthetic, or genre (loosely speaking), just as some dislike cthulhu, or rennaisance italy or warhammer or whatever. It's ok to like some things less than others. EDIT: And it also partially because when people asked why they didn't like the artwork, the reason seemed to be about stuff that isn't even present within Tragedy Looper, which to me seems akin to disliking newspaper cartoons because you know Tijuana bibles exist. Tekopo fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Jun 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 09:45 |
|
|
It's a completely valid reason to be put off from a board game due to its art, all art is a matter of taste. It's a shame if you're missing out on a good game, but if your distaste for the art, whether it's because you don't like the style, or don't think it's good enough, or think that it's too generic, or racist...if, for whatever reason, it' enough to overpower your enjoyment of the game, then you're not going to enjoy yourself and then why would you play? That said, this reprint, if it causes a Pandemic-like split where expansions are no longer made for the old version, it'll really be irritating as gently caress. Anyway can I gripe about how I'm annoyed that the Dungeon Lords Anniversary Edition is, like, half an inch taller than Galaxy Trucker and therefore won't fit in my shelf as easily? My goddamn need for order must be appeased!
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:36
|
|