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Trabant posted:You rely on the French Resistance to evade the largely ineffectual and corrupt (but still dangerous) German occupation forces. You also helps to steal the painting of the fallen Madonna with the big boobies
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Mar 26, 2023 08:32
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Nessus posted:I imagine it was a lot easier to survive being shot down in these contexts since the planes were slower, flew lower, and you were mostly getting shot up with bullets (if big ones) rather than missiles. So a lot of the time it was a mission kill, not "explode and die." I found a claim about George Bennions having exactly this happen to him, but can't see it backed up anywhere else. But it definitely could have happened.
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Mar 26, 2023 09:23
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Animal-Mother posted:So here's a question for history goons. There's so many stories about all these airmen who got shot down multiple times inside warzones. After you get shot down... What exactly do you do? I mean, you survived, obviously, but do you really just dust yourself off, break out a map and compass, and start walking back to your side of the war? If you’re Bob Hoover, you bust out of camp, steal Hitler’s least‐battle‐damaged fighter, and make haste for Holland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B09nWQHdRiU He starts the story at four and a half minutes.
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Mar 26, 2023 09:31
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On a somewhat similar note I remember hearing about members of the Sherwood Foresters in Normandy lose up to four tanks in one day, they'd get a disabling hit in their first tank, abandon it, run back to the rear area and grab a new tank and drive off to fight again. Like a game of Battlefield or something! I can't find any mention of this elsewhere though 
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Mar 26, 2023 09:40
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Red Bones posted:Is there a good source of information / research/ perspective on how the trauma of WW2 impacted that whole adult generation in the late 1940s and 1950s? I can give a British example. Patrick Stewart's father Alfred used to beat his mother. Patrick new his dad served in WW2 but was never told much. He found out about his father's experiences during the show Who Do You Think You Are which is worth watching. A quick summary from memory: Alfred was in the British Army before WW2 and reenlisted when it started. Due to his previous experience he was placed in a training battalion that was never supposed to be used on the front line, then the Germans attacked France. He saw a lot of action, including being one of the last British soldiers evacuated from France. Dunkirk was the most famous evacuation but others happened afterwards. The soldiers involved in the final rearguard actions would have seen some horrific things. He got diagnosed with shellshock (the WW1 and WW2 version of PTSD in the UK) but after returning to Britain volunteered for the paratroopers. He then saw action in several combat jumps in the south of France. When he returned home after the war ended his entire generation was expected to just deal with their mental health themselves. Given the state of psychiatric help in the UK at the time, this was probably the lesser of two evils; many people deemed to have mental health issues were simply locked up for life. Alfred would have known about this happening to WW1 veterans. It was not just social pressure that meant these men didn't talk about their issues; there was the very real threat of losing their personal liberty (and ruining their families if the man's wages are the only source of finance). None of this excuses the domestic violence, just provides an explanation. Patrick had already been involved with the domestic violence charity Refuge in honour of his mum; after Who Do You Think You Are he started working with the veteran's charity Combat Stress in honour of his dad.
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Mar 26, 2023 11:11
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In Finland there's been an lot of recent discussion about the second- and even third- and fourth-generational trauma of WW2. People came back home mentally scarred from fighting and were told to just get back to work because the entire country needed to be rebuilt, no time to care about your feelings. Since mental health issues were strongly stigmatized here as well, people took solace in the bottle and/or acted it out on their families, and so the psychological damage got passed on to the next generation in a mutated form. Such cycles can just keep on repeating unless something is actually done about them.
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Mar 26, 2023 11:49
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barbecue at the folks posted:In Finland there's been an lot of recent discussion about the second- and even third- and fourth-generational trauma of WW2. People came back home mentally scarred from fighting and were told to just get back to work because the entire country needed to be rebuilt, no time to care about your feelings. Since mental health issues were strongly stigmatized here as well, people took solace in the bottle and/or acted it out on their families, and so the psychological damage got passed on to the next generation in a mutated form. Such cycles can just keep on repeating unless something is actually done about them. In Norway there also was a discussion about the war sailors (like my grand uncle). They were all deeply traumatized but were mostly ignored by the public after the war. They didn't get help, recognition for their effort or a war pension. Then in 1968 there was a law that said that war sailors was entitled to a pension without having to prove that their mental problems was due to the war, they just had to prove that they had been war sailors for more than six months. In 2013 the norwegian minister of defense publicly apologized for how the war sailors had been treated.
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Mar 26, 2023 14:46
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My grandfather was a kind old kiwi gardener who had been in ww2. He only ever told us 4 stories about his time there: He got stung by a scorpion. He got bitten by a camel. Then, when he got older: He saw a shovel in a museum and said it was no good, that a shovel needed to be able to cut through bones so that when you got buried by a nearby bomb it was easier to dig your way out. That sometimes you had to do what you needed to, even if that included shooting an old school friend for desertion. He kind of went the opposite to a lot of old vets, he had an absolute aversion to violence and bravado. Genuinely one of the nicest, kindest old fellows you could ever hope to meet. Unless you were Japanese.
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Mar 26, 2023 18:30
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Animal-Mother posted:So here's a question for history goons. There's so many stories about all these airmen who got shot down multiple times inside warzones. After you get shot down... What exactly do you do? I mean, you survived, obviously, but do you really just dust yourself off, break out a map and compass, and start walking back to your side of the war? Another question is what happens when you don't survive and your body is left behind enemy lines? Happened to my great uncle. He was shot down during one of those extremely dangerous low altitude strafing missions in Italy. He bailed out too late and did not survive. An old Italian couple found his body near their home and found his rosary in his pocket. Recognizing him as a Catholic, they got the priest and gave him a proper burial in their garden. When the lines advanced enough they found his commander, handed over his personal items, and showed them the grave site they had been maintaining for "the American boy". He was disinterred and sent to the states to be reburied. Reminds me of some early hominids found in North Africa that had received Muslim burials. 80,000 years ago, this guy died. 500 years ago, some travelers passing through found remains they recognized as human, perhaps assumed they were recent, and reburied them with their head facing towards Mecca. I think both are examples of the best parts of human nature. Showing kindness and respect to strangers, even to their bodies in death.
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Mar 26, 2023 18:49
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barbecue at the folks posted:In Finland there's been an lot of recent discussion about the second- and even third- and fourth-generational trauma of WW2. People came back home mentally scarred from fighting and were told to just get back to work because the entire country needed to be rebuilt, no time to care about your feelings. Since mental health issues were strongly stigmatized here as well, people took solace in the bottle and/or acted it out on their families, and so the psychological damage got passed on to the next generation in a mutated form. Such cycles can just keep on repeating unless something is actually done about them. More of a scientific than a historical fact, but fear responses and other psychiatric issues can be genetically passed down from males to their children. Sperm are constantly made in the body as opposed to eggs and can be epigenetically modified as the father experiences (usually) traumatic things.
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Mar 26, 2023 20:33
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theflyingexecutive posted:More of a scientific than a historical fact, but fear responses and other psychiatric issues can be genetically passed down from males to their children. Sperm are constantly made in the body as opposed to eggs and can be epigenetically modified as the father experiences (usually) traumatic things. The spooky sperm. Sporm.
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Mar 26, 2023 20:35
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canyoneer posted:Another question is what happens when you don't survive and your body is left behind enemy lines? Happened to my great uncle. He was shot down during one of those extremely dangerous low altitude strafing missions in Italy. He bailed out too late and did not survive. That is so extraordinarily polite and kindly; they found old bones and buried them with honor and dignity.
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Mar 26, 2023 20:41
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jazzyjay posted:You also helps to steal the painting of the fallen Madonna with the big boobies Ah, another person of culture 
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Mar 27, 2023 16:55
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Nessus posted:I imagine it was a lot easier to survive being shot down in these contexts since the planes were slower, flew lower, and you were mostly getting shot up with bullets (if big ones) rather than missiles. So a lot of the time it was a mission kill, not "explode and die." It was often harder to survive because you had to open the canopy and jump out of the plane/deploy your chute yourself rather than pull the eject lever. It was common for people to burn to death/crash into the ground/crash land and then burn to death because they were lucid enough to realize they were going down but too wounded to bail. If you were too low and bailed you would likely hit the ground and die before you could deploy your chute. Modern zero-airspeed/zero-altitude ejection seats save a lot of lives. It was even worse in World War I where parachutes were much bulkier and heavier, and only the Germans had them. The Allies believed that parachutes would encourage cowardice, you see. World War I was very stupid. Also in general flying lower and slower is more dangerous while being high and fast is safer, and this is something that is emphasized in a lot of introductory flight training. The higher and faster you are, the more time you have to react when things go pear-shaped. Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 23:03 on Mar 28, 2023 |
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Mar 28, 2023 23:00
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My grandfather went into the marines in 39. Chesty Puller asked him what he did before enlisting and it was dishwashing so he was made the cook. If folks asked about being a cook he’d say “Every marine is also a rifleman.”… “Except for band they were riflemen and gravediggers” He did all the holiday and most of the day to day cooking at family gatherings. On Guadalcanal he was in Johnny Basilone’s machine gun squad. He never talked about this. But he did give books about it. In the McMillan edition that has photos he was in a couple. He had occasional nightmares about it until he died. He was also a racist homophobe.
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Mar 29, 2023 02:41
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Woolie Wool posted:It was often harder to survive because you had to open the canopy and jump out of the plane/deploy your chute yourself rather than pull the eject lever. It was common for people to burn to death/crash into the ground/crash land and then burn to death because they were lucid enough to realize they were going down but too wounded to bail. If you were too low and bailed you would likely hit the ground and die before you could deploy your chute. Modern zero-airspeed/zero-altitude ejection seats save a lot of lives. It seems like having parachutes would encourage the opposite of cowardice but Idk maybe that's just me
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Mar 29, 2023 07:32
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Milo and POTUS posted:It seems like having parachutes would encourage the opposite of cowardice but Idk maybe that's just me Well you see, planes are expensive and we can't just have pilots jump out of a perfectly recoverable plane just because of silly little things like it being on fire. 
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Mar 29, 2023 07:52
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Perestroika posted:Well you see, planes are expensive and we can't just have pilots jump out of a perfectly recoverable plane just because of silly little things like it being on fire. Britain actually removed the backup chute because they saved something like 2 pounds by only giving the pilot one chute.
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Mar 29, 2023 10:20
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They spent their fleet savings on churchill's liquor budget for a month
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Mar 29, 2023 10:34
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Woolie Wool posted:It was often harder to survive because you had to open the canopy and jump out of the plane/deploy your chute yourself rather than pull the eject lever. It was common for people to burn to death/crash into the ground/crash land and then burn to death because they were lucid enough to realize they were going down but too wounded to bail. If you were too low and bailed you would likely hit the ground and die before you could deploy your chute. Modern zero-airspeed/zero-altitude ejection seats save a lot of lives. I can't quote an exact source but my understanding is that the cowardice thing is a bit overblown and part of the "lions lead by donkeys" myth that was popular for a long time. The thing about parachutes at the time is that they were heavy, bulky, unreliable, and due to the aerodynamic and construction constraints of the time the aircraft themselves were not very easy to bail out of. The aircraft performance was also marginal (especially early in the war) so every pound saved could have a substantial benefit in performance. With that in mind the parachute becomes an actual trade-off: real performance loss against unreliable protection. For a service that emphasized aggression and the idea that killing the enemy is the best form of defense omitting parachutes is a pretty logical step.
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Mar 29, 2023 14:21
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I'm under the impression that that era of aircraft sucked at ejection because the pilot and crew would often smack something important on the plane itself right after bailing, and human bodies flying at terminal velocity don't usually do so good when hit by another object flying at terminal velocity that might be on fire or full of cannon shells or bombs. Also the first time I solo skydived my main parachute failed, so tbqh I am extremely biased towards the reserve parachute.
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Mar 29, 2023 15:06
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None of my direct ancestors served, that I'm aware of, but my nana and grandpa met in the factory where they were building dive bombers. Nana was a riveter! Wish I'd known that (or been better able to appreciate it) when they were still alive.
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Mar 30, 2023 03:59
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My paternal grandfather got his older sister to forge signatures so he could enlist in the marines underage, along with all of his older brothers. He served on Iwo Jima and must’ve seen some harrowing stuff, because he didn’t tell us a lot about it. He did say that once, he and his captain got summoned up to see the general (or another high ranking officer; I need to call my dad and clarify the details). Neither of them had had a real meal in ages, so when they got there and saw the general had a whole chicken roasting on his fire, the captain told my grandpa to steal it while the captain and the general were talking. My grandpa grabbed it and ran down the trail. Once the captain got done and met up with him, they squatted in the jungle and ate the chicken.
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Mar 30, 2023 16:11
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Kiebland posted:My paternal grandfather got his older sister to forge signatures so he could enlist in the marines underage, along with all of his older brothers. He served on Iwo Jima and must’ve seen some harrowing stuff, because he didn’t tell us a lot about it. My granddad hated the smell of eggs because of sulfur on Iwo Jima. There was a point where his rifle failed, a Japanese rifle failed, and his bayonet was faster than the officer's sword. That's the only combat story I ever heard from him, and he got very quiet for a while after that.
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Mar 30, 2023 20:10
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My grandfather was a machinist on the USS Salt Lake City during the Pacific campaign. He didn't talk about it much, but he had a seething hatred of Japan and the Japanese until the day he died. My ex's grandfather fought for the US in France and Germany. He flatly refused to talk about it. If you asked what he did in the war all he would say is "I tried not to get killed." e: I guess while we're talking family war stories... My dad was almost in Vietnam. He was in flight school towards the end of the war. My mom broke his arm while they were '"roughhousing" and that delayed him graduating by a couple months and probably changed where he graduated in his class. Top graduates went to fighters, next batch became instructor pilots for the next round of pilots, and the rest went into bombers and cargo planes. He fell into the instructors group and by the time he was done with that assignment the war was over. I am not completely convinced that my mom breaking his arm was completely accidental on her part. I've never asked because she'd never admit it and would be horrified by even the suggestion. Azathoth Prime has a new favorite as of 22:55 on Mar 30, 2023 |
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Mar 30, 2023 22:17
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Your mom is a badass either way, but she’s a genius badass if she did it on purpose.
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Mar 31, 2023 17:46
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yea imo give an unironic high five to your mom for breaking your dads arm lol
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Mar 31, 2023 17:52
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Cool that it was either on purpose or she was such a rough customer in the sack that it saved his life.
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Mar 31, 2023 17:56
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Azathoth Prime posted:I am not completely convinced that my mom breaking his arm was completely accidental on her part. I've never asked because she'd never admit it and would be horrified by even the suggestion. There's no easy way to ask your mom if she broke your dad's arm while they were loving. And the answer may have more detail and specifics than you really want (because to be clear, that was totally what happened)
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Mar 31, 2023 18:20
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"We've gotta make the injury convincing." "Or die trying." "...I'm not sure I wanna do this anymore..." "Get in loving bed."
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Mar 31, 2023 18:43
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Inzombiac posted:Cool that it was either on purpose or she was such a rough customer in the sack that it saved his life. "My desires are... Unconventional." "So show me." *crack* But yeah, gj mom! Reminds me -- only tangentially, thankfully -- of how some parents would supposedly chop off their sons' fingers to avoid them getting kidnapped and pressed into janissary service by the Ottomans. Usually it would be a pinky or ring finger, the theory being that it would "cripple" them enough to be rejected as janissaries but not enough to be unable to work in... whatever awful job was their lot in life. Could be true buuut could be old Balkan stories about the Turks 
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Mar 31, 2023 18:46
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"So, how did you break your arm?" "...smell my elbow."
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Mar 31, 2023 18:49
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Marcade posted:"So, how did you break your arm?"  (wolf blitzer is conducting the interview)
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Mar 31, 2023 19:03
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Oh also, I have a question actually! I'm currently reading through a lot of witness intervews about a man who died in 1819 at an inn. Some of the witness state that he said such things as "god bless my two little children" or "god bless my wife", So I googled this up, which seems to fit, though it's medieval: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_moriendi Any of yall able to recommend some good articles/books on what the proper "art of dying" was like in Europe in the early 1800s? * most of them don't mention any "god bless" Carthag Tuek has a new favorite as of 19:41 on Mar 31, 2023 |
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Mar 31, 2023 19:12
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Carthag Tuek posted:Oh also, I have a question actually! Or maybe the witnesses are reporting accurately what they remember. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
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Mar 31, 2023 19:26
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Deteriorata posted:Or maybe the witnesses are reporting accurately what they remember. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Sure, but aside from that, it's like 15 witnesses that basically tell the same story. The other differences are like whether someone's hat fell off or not, or how long it took between someone exited and entered again. The entire narrative is virtually identical, except for the "god bless" stuff It's like, famous last words and Japanese death poems, at least some of those have to be made up to put the deceased in a good/bad light, right? This just feels like that too, because of it being so inconsistent compared to the general events being referred. e: actually double-checking, its only 3 of the 15 witnesses who claim he said it: his widow (who wasnt present, but refers what she was told by those who were), one of the serving girls (who wasnt present either, she was in another room), and a patron of the inn who doesnt seem reliable because his two depositions diverge, he might be confabulating so it does to me seem like the widow is wishing/believing he said it, and im thinking because of his/her/their reputation/legacy. so it would be very interesting to see what the then-contemporary thought was on that Carthag Tuek has a new favorite as of 19:49 on Mar 31, 2023 |
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Mar 31, 2023 19:34
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Probably also a likely a lot of people will say what they think they're supposed to say.
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Apr 1, 2023 00:34
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Probably also a likely a lot of people will say what they think they're supposed to say. That's my assumption*, but I'm just wondering if any of yall have come across writings on that topic from that period. Even fiction is fine, tbh. * the widow says it in court, random witnesses pass it on, sometime years later, the son or daughter is told in a very true way that their father was heard saying this before he died. Anyway, reflections on that topic from the early 1800s plus/minus would be appreciated 
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Apr 1, 2023 01:55
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Am I too late to grandpa chat? I'm Spanish. Great-grandpa on dad's side got drafted to fight in the Cuban independence war. Richer families would pay so their kids got exempted from service, while poorer families got to have their kids sent to fight for the very last shreds of the colonies, first Cuba and Philipphines, later Moroccan posessions. Poorly trained kids, coupled with a woefully inadequate and out of date equipment, caused several bloodbaths and would go on for decades, eventually crystallizing in a good number of bloody riots during the 1910's as people grew tired of having their kids die in useless overseas wars. This guy died in the 1950s, after having no less than nine kids in a tiny communal housing with no running water, only three of which survived childhood - two of them, my grandma and her one-year-older sister, would live on to be 100 years old. I don't think anyone was particularly proud of greatgrandpa's service years, but my grandma always kept this as a memento of him:  This was known as a backpack flag. They are linen and so cheaply made that they faded out very easily, and were handed to recruits so they'd have something to cover their backpack and other posessions with. But it had another use - if you were shot dead, you were supposed to be buried with it, so while very dead in the middle of nowhere, you'd have the Spanish flag on your tomb. Yay, patriotism! My grandpa, the one this grandma married, was military-age and drafted onto the Franco army at the start of the war. He was from an upper middle class, so his dad had influence to pull strings and have him sent to intendence instead of the frontlines - he spent the war carrying food supplies between garrisons in the Granada hills riding a donkey, but apparently managed to not have to shoot anyone. He never talked much about the war either apparently, and also left my grandma to live with another lady in the 60s (divorce wasn't legal, so he just up and left), so family didn't talk much about him, either.
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Apr 3, 2023 11:50
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All the grandad-chat got me looking at some of his old army stuff, and I came across a little booklet called "Engineering Handbook No.1". I'd seen it before, but always assumed it was like one of those old "teach yourself" books that were so popular in the later Victorian period, but it really isn't - it's entirely about waging guerilla warfare - stuff like derailing trains, destroying staff cars without explosives etc. You can read the whole thing here: https://publications.corkpublicmuseum.ie/view/1032961770/ It's really interesting Also, a picture of the man himself, in dress uniform:  I've worn the cloak once or twice - it's amazing - fine black wool, lined with red silk.
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Apr 6, 2023 17:52
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