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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I would not call this Rey's 'inner self' because what does that even mean? The implication of what you're saying is that Rey is an inherently bad person who has to overcome her 'inner self' to reach the destiny-island. She does have to overcome herself, accepting her new family, facing her destiny. Thats her arc in the movie. Maybe inner self is not the right way to describe it, but it is not her true calling and certainly not mixed up with the island.
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Feb 3, 2016 05:56
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I was the one who brought up the flinching about three hundred posts back. I could have sworn I remembered it being there (from countless viewings of the film years ago) but I don't really see it now in the GIF either.
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Feb 3, 2016 06:11
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Dune chat brought up most of the blatant parallels (spice and worms and Bene Geserit-Jedi Bendu hero's journey desert planet magic
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Feb 3, 2016 06:22
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Jerkface posted:She does have to overcome herself, accepting her new family, facing her destiny. Thats her arc in the movie. Maybe inner self is not the right way to describe it, but it is not her true calling and certainly not mixed up with the island. I have an automatic revulsion towards this mystical 'inner self' stuff. You know, "overcome yourself and face your new destiny!" Am I about to be tested for thetans? gently caress that poo poo. Obiwan doesn't hide out in a rocky valley because the rocks represent his third chakra or something. Obiwan hides in the rocky valley because the territory is controlled by the sandpeople, and he can use his knowledge of their culture to survive there when most people would be killed. This ability to use spooky noises to manipulate the 'primitives' is, first and foremost, what gives him the reputation of a wizard. Han is right that it's all smoke and mirrors. Obiwan is both an admirer of sandpeople culture and something of a racist towards them. That's interesting characterization. It ties Obiwan to the world. The forest is 'just a forest', though Rey's decision to run there does reflect her state of mind. It represents... aimlessness and confusion, I guess. The thing is that the forest is shot blandly and nothing particularly interesting happens there. And Jakku, as it happens, also represents aimlessness and confusion. That's why Cnut is right to point out that the characters just sort of wander from place to place almost arbitrarily. Think of Dagobah. Luke goes there because he's in a spiritual crisis. It's a disgusting world of decay that highlights Yoda's belief in detachment from the 'crude matter' of the body. Geonosis looks like mars and is run by an insectile theocracy that's (also) mass-producing "WMDs". The heroes have become embroiled in a 'war on terror'. That's the kind of stuff that's missing in TFA. What is D'Quar or whatever?
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Feb 3, 2016 06:54
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So the forest is just a forest now? And no longer her true calling? Does nothing interesting happen in the forests? Rey meets Ren for the first time in the forest, kills someone there for the first time deliberately, sees the force in action for the first time and is subdued by it. The second time we have one of the best lightsaber fights in the series culminating in our hero taking up the sword to temporarily defeat our great villain. The cliff forming behind Rey, the chasm forming between Rey & Ren. Love that poo poo. D'Qar shows us the Resistance's station compared with the previous trilogies. The Rebellion operated out of a gigantic temple in a lush jungle. The resistance operates out of a green planet, but their ships sit out in the open, they are basically using native american burial mounds as their base. Its a far cry from the gigantic temples they took over. Its a very efficient way to let us compare and contrast how strong they are vs the Rebels. Not to mention the green & stone is a direct contrast with starkiller base's snow & metal. Jerkface fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 07:11
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The forest imagery seems to be riffing on the nature/technology dichotomy of A New Hope or the vague anarcho-primitivism of Return of the Jedi. There are two forests in this movie, Takodana and Starkiller, and Rey flees into both to try to escape from a distressing situation. She runs away from the blue lightsaber only to by accosted by the red one, and then she runs from the red lightsaber and ends up with the blue one. Alternatively, she runs from Maz and then runs from Snoke and both times Kylo Ren is there to take advantage of her imbalance. She didn't know there was that much green in the galaxy. Forests are everything that's not on Jakku. Forests are uncertainty and self-doubt. As long as she stays on Jakku, she's still just been dropped off there; once she leaves, she must consider that she's been abandoned, and may start to worry, as children will, that they did something to deserve it.
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Feb 3, 2016 07:30
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Tezzor posted:Yes, if you're going to establish slavery you should indicate some reason whatsoever why it is so bad, especially in a fantasy universe where the general rules do not necessarily apply. In addition to show-don't-tell being a basic principle of storytelling, this creates an emotional connection and investment in the character which causes us to care about them. If you fail to do this the audience is uninvested in what's happening. how do you feel about Gor?
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Feb 3, 2016 07:44
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Tezzor posted:lmao Jesus Christ George. i think he really believes this poo poo. Yeah if only the Jedi had used Friendship Is Magic at the Cackling Lightning Torture Monster. the man has lost his goddamn mind if mace had treated sheeve fairly by his own code, anikin might have seen the goodness of the jedi and not have fallen to corruption the senate may have convicted him due to overwhelming evidence and the republic could have been saved so yes a bit of love and compassion for the person held "helpless" by his own admission might have saved the republic from even more war.
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Feb 3, 2016 08:27
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Sheev literally becomes empowered by Windu's fear, anger and hate.Jerkface posted:So the forest is just a forest now? And no longer her true calling? It is Rey's true calling in the sense that she finds it beautiful and instinctively hides there in a crisis. When I say it is her true calling, I mean simply that she prefers to be there. The island is a distraction/afterthought. I was not impressed by the cinematography in any of these forest scenes. Killing a stormtrooper is not interesting in this film; everyone does it. And the sword battles, likewise, lack any mythic quality. Rey does not stand for any sort of idea or cause. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 08:54
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Tezzor posted:lmao Jesus Christ George. i think he really believes this poo poo. Yeah if only the Jedi had used Friendship Is Magic at the Cackling Lightning Torture Monster. the man has lost his goddamn mind Anakin walks in and sees a guy who recently talked down to him and essentially humiliated him in front of the Jedi Council, something he does not have a lot of love for at this point, pointing a lightsaber at an essentially defenseless old man who at that point is one of three people in the entire galaxy who he has a good relationship with, Palpatine even confirms what Anakin is thinking by saying "The Jedi are taking over, like I said!". Anakin at this point says he needs Palpatine alive and makes an appeal to the Republic's legal system, two things can happen now: 1) Mace goes "Okay, we'll arrest him for killing 3 Jedi and the crime of being a Sith Lord (is this even a crime?)" and apprehends him with the help of Anakin. Palpatine won't resist arrest because he doesn't want to do anything to turn Anakin away from him. I don't know how Palpatine's emergency powers would interact with the infamous slowness of the Republic courts, but unless it's the fastest trial ever and Palpatine is cleared of all charges, it's pretty likely Padme will have her kids and not die, which means Anakin, you know, won't require the Dark Side anymore. Keep in mind, by this point, Obi-Wan (Anakin's best friend) will be back from wrecking Grevious and they can just talk about this and help calm down Anakin. 2) Mace goes "No, he's too dangerous to be kept alive", which means Anakin steps in to both defend his friend (Palpatine) and the Republic, since at this point Mace Windu is pretty much breaking the law. Palpatine shoots him out of the window, Anakin expresses remorse over what he did, and then goes and kills every Jedi because he knows they're all "Too dangerous to be kept alive." Even if kills Palpatine, it'll just lead right into a Jedi-led coup anyway, which is the exact thing Palpatine says they attempted on him, and it's probably likely he had some sort of posthumous Order 66 anyway. It's not even mercy or love, it's pragmatism. Though now here's the thing I'm wondering, why exactly did the Jedi have to "move quickly" in the first place? Was Palpatine preparing a magic spell or something?
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Feb 3, 2016 08:55
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Chucat posted:Though now here's the thing I'm wondering, why exactly did the Jedi have to "move quickly" in the first place? Was Palpatine preparing a magic spell or something? They were rushing to kill Sheev before he officially became emperor.
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Feb 3, 2016 09:06
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Didn't that only come about after the Jedi tried to kill him and I guess he got enough political capital to get away with making an Empire? Like would it have killed the Jedi to wait one day for Obi-Wan "Sith Lords are his speciality" Kenobi to get back from Utapau to help them apprehend the Sith Lord?
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Feb 3, 2016 09:49
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Chucat posted:1) Mace goes "Okay, we'll arrest him for killing 3 Jedi and the crime of being a Sith Lord (is this even a crime?)" even if it's not illegal to be sith they know a sith is causing all of this, and the believe that here's at most only two sith and this dude admitted to being one so an arrest is probably not out of the question
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Feb 3, 2016 09:51
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Elfgames posted:if mace had treated sheeve fairly by his own code, anikin might have seen the goodness of the jedi and not have fallen to corruption the senate may have convicted him due to overwhelming evidence and the republic could have been saved so yes a bit of love and compassion for the person held "helpless" by his own admission might have saved the republic from even more war. Mace wanted to execute palpatine the same exact way anakin executed count dooku. Dooku didn't even have hands at that point. Yet somehow anakin realized the Jedi are the real evil and must be exterminated. Even the children! Because of mace. It's dumb. Super dumb.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:12
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Made went there with like 4 other Jedi - who were killed by Palpatine in self defense- as a committee which represented the Jedi order so...
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Feb 3, 2016 14:52
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DARPA posted:Mace wanted to execute palpatine the same exact way anakin executed count dooku. He shouldn't.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:59
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euphronius posted:Made went there with like 4 other Jedi - who were killed by Palpatine in self defense- as a committee which represented the Jedi order so... It's pretty similar to how the Trade Federation reacts in TPM when the Republic sends 2 superpowered thugs to "negotiate" with them.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:03
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The Jedi were right.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:21
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Rey does not stand for any sort of idea or cause. She stands for the cause of Star Wars fans (the ones who don't like Star Wars), who will pick over the remnants of decades-old Episodes IV-VI before they accept any novelty. Even when taken away from her desperate Tatooine of reminisce and fantasy, she longs to return there. Offered a pale substitute -- tagging along with an aging Han Solo -- she declines. Even when told flat-out that the old childhood magic is never coming back and faced abruptly and violently with a new Star Wars,, she flee to the depths of an Endor-clone forest. She has to be dragged bodily into the new franchise, but once she's there, she begins to engage, and the Force awakens again.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:29
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Vintersorg posted:The Jedi were right. are you in favor of political assassinations IRL? as in, would you be appalled if you found out that seal team 6 had been ordered to (or of their own accord) murdered Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? might makes right, eh?
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Feb 3, 2016 15:36
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I don't think that's the idiom you want to use to criticize that idea over the space wizard who won the space fight and also has a gigantic army and navy who killed all his opponents.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:42
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I read the script to make sure I wasn't misremembering, but it looks like Nute Gunray was completely shocked that the Republic had sent 2 Jedi to negotiate. I'm guessing then that it wasn't standard Republic policy to send armed enforcers as diplomats. No wonder everything went to poo poo very quickly.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:42
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Serf posted:I read the script to make sure I wasn't misremembering, but it looks like Nute Gunray was completely shocked that the Republic had sent 2 Jedi to negotiate. I'm guessing then that it wasn't standard Republic policy to send armed enforcers as diplomats. No wonder everything went to poo poo very quickly. Obi-wan says "how do you think this trade viceroy will deal with the chancellor's demands?" and then Qui-Gon is super smug and says "these federation types are cowards, the negotiations will be short" Then Nute and his colleague learn that the ambassadors are Jedi and Not-Nute says "I knew it, they're here to force a settlement" so yeah Valorum explicitly sent Jedi to scare or strong-arm these dudes, which was a move that apparently sheev didn't see coming, he even says "this is unexpected"
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Feb 3, 2016 15:54
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Yeah, a more accurate analogy would be that Seal Team Six is talking about how to overthrow Obama because they're worried he's getting too much power, and then Reggie Love tells them that Obama is a secret member of ISIS and Bin Laden worked for him, so they send a hit squad to the White House. I think I just wrote some Tom Clancy wannabe's next book jacket.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:56
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Waffles Inc. posted:are you in favor of political assassinations IRL? as in, would you be appalled if you found out that seal team 6 had been ordered to (or of their own accord) murdered Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Maybe if Ahmadinejad was a Sith lord plotting to take over the entire galaxy with a young apprentice. E: Jedi's, sworn to keep the peace, and their biggest enemy, the Sith, are going to disrupt. Cut the head off. But they fail. And whelp, you get the Empire and eradication of Jedi and aliens. euphronius posted:They were going to kill Palpatine not Sidious. 
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Feb 3, 2016 15:57
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They were going to kill Palpatine not Sidious.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:58
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I think you guys are being a little dense regarding Emperor Sheev Palpatine. Whilst the Jedi in general and Mace Windu specifically fatally compromised themselves by becoming autocratic agents of violence, Palpatine really clearly could not be tolerated to rule the Republic either and the Jedi would have been completely justified in trying to apprehend and arrest him, had they left it at that. I mean granted everyone was in the mud and the Jedi deserved to be in the dustbin of history as much as the Republic and the Sith, but these coy 'so you're in favour of murdering elected representatives?  ' posts are pretty disingenuous; plenty of people tried to kill Hitler, who was also originally elected and enjoyed a similar career trajectory, and they're generally considered heroes and martyrs.The Republic obviously has a history with the cult who literally worships Evil as a concept, and even though the Republic only has itself to blame for allowing it to thrive inside its government, it doesn't make any (futile, belated) action taken against it wrong. The failings of the Weimar Republic didn't make Hitler right.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:58
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Palpatine had not done anything like Hitler when Mace et al lead the hit squad.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:00
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Waffles Inc. posted:so yeah Valorum explicitly sent Jedi to scare or strong-arm these dudes, which was a move that apparently sheev didn't see coming, he even says "this is unexpected" I dunno if it was unexpected. I think Sheev talks out of both sides of his mouth depending on whether he's appearing as Palpatine or Sidious. It seems that the Jedi are what kicks the whole thing off. They show up, the Federation strikes first, then they openly invade Naboo. Which is what eventually leads to Amidala getting Palpatine put into power. I guess it could go either way. He could've planned it all from the beginning or he could've just taken advantage of events as they unfolded. Either way the result is the same I suppose.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:01
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So you're going to keep running with them being 2 different people.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:01
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No one was trying to assassinate hitler in 1933.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:03
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BUT THE AUTHORS INTENT IS NULL NEXT TO MY STORIES
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Feb 3, 2016 16:05
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Vintersorg posted:So you're going to keep running with them being 2 different people. They were. Did you watch the movie? The Jedi don't even know that Palpatine is Sidious until Anakin tells them, which is after they decided to start a coup detat. That is Mace et al would have attacked Palpatine even if they did not know who Sidious was. In fact Mace doesn't even fully believe Anakin!!
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Feb 3, 2016 16:07
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Only Once Palaptine breaks out the red saber and saves his life by defeating the assassins Does mace know he is Sidious.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:10
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I'll have to re-watch because I truly forget the reason the Jedi stormed his office. EDIT: From quick Google search, Anakin tells Mace he is a Sith lord and they go to arrest him. Then Sidious charges at them and kills 3 Jedi. So...
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Feb 3, 2016 16:11
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Waffles Inc. posted:Then Nute and his colleague learn that the ambassadors are Jedi and Not-Nute says "I knew it, they're here to force a settlement" Force indeed.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:12
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Vintersorg posted:I'll have to re-watch because I truly forget the reason the Jedi stormed his office. Anakin tells Mace Windu "Yo, Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He admitted it to my face."
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Feb 3, 2016 16:12
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Vintersorg posted:I'll have to re-watch because I truly forget the reason the Jedi stormed his office. Because they are worried Palpatine won't give up his emergency powers . It's right after Grievous is killed.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:12
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euphronius posted:Palpatine had not done anything like Hitler when Mace et al lead the hit squad. I believe the Sith are a banned political party, given the Jedi's original role in 'safeguarding' the Republic from Sith corruption, so they would have been well withing their rights to arrest him on suspicion of being a Dark Lord of Evil. Mace Windu only truly blew it when he tried to extra-judicially execute his defeated opponent, though given the course the Jedi had been taking it's a fitting conclusion to the story of their Order.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:13
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euphronius posted:Because they are worried Palpatine won't give up his emergency powers . Wow you're just twisting things and most likely trolling. "When Palpatine reveals himself as the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, Anakin reports his treachery to Mace Windu, who subdues Palpatine in an ensuing lightsaber duel. In a desperate attempt to help save Padmé, Anakin intervenes on Palpatine's behalf, allowing him to kill Mace. Anakin pledges himself to Palpatine, who dubs him Darth Vader."
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Feb 3, 2016 16:14
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