|
Let's militarize the Rhineland - with Southern European troops.
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 14:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 14:29 |
|
|
Policies aimed at preventing racing to the bottom. Instead of policies aimed at encouraging them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 14:53
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:Just for fun, how should the EU change? (please limit your answer to policies that are not just wealth transfers from the North-East to the South-West) German exit and closure of their borders. Those borders will be militarized while Germany won't be allowed to raise its own army.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 15:02
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Policies aimed at preventing racing to the bottom. Instead of policies aimed at encouraging them. So ban immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe then? Maybe ban exports from there as well? Also it's difficult to take you seriously because whenever you bring up race to the bottom, someone can drag up statistics showing that within the EU, the poorest countries have the highest levels of wage growth (with wages only falling in Greece) or that globally it's the exact same thing. It's nice that you keep repeating "race to the bottom" but in the real world, wages are rising fastest in the poorest countries that opened up to trade. It's really difficult to understand why leftists are so anti-poor. I get why you would value the "poor" of France over the poor in Asia (proximity, cultural familiarity, you being a racist etc) and as such, if there was a threat to the poor in France you'd prefer to help them over the poor in Asia. But this whole thing about stagnating income is a D&D narrative that's true in America (to some extent) but completely false in Europe. So the poor in Europe aren't even seeing the kind of stagnation that the extreme leftists and far righters like to talk about. So essentially you're basically just saying "gently caress the poor" https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/the-american-middle-class-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html?_r=0
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 16:02
|
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:It will come closer even if macron wins Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Apr 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 16:09
|
|
|
I'm talking more about the ongoing competition to be Europe's biggest tax shelter so as to try to get some industry back. Stuff like this: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-21/hungary-s-tax-cut-to-eu-s-lowest-seen-risking-race-to-the-bottom To afford to constantly lower taxes, spending have to be cut likewise, which destroys social cohesion. The EU encourages fraud and evasion, while restricting countries' ability to fight against them. As for the poor in Asia, they'll discover how much poorer they will forever be when they'll realize the real cost of environmental dumping as a way to increase competitiveness. Increased market shares last a few years, pollution lasts for thousands of years. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/30/more-than-half-of-south-asias-groundwater-too-contaminated-to-use-study
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 16:12
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:I'm talking more about the ongoing competition to be Europe's biggest tax shelter so as to try to get some industry back. Stuff like this: Pop quiz: Which former tax official is lead the charge in this fight in this decade? Hint: It's not the guy who wanted to equip tourists with Google Glasses to spy on shopkeepers.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 17:01
|
|
|
SaltyJesus posted:A lot of these were far less of a problem in Yugoslavia than they were in other Communist European countries. For example, leaving the country to go West was fairly easy; my dad and his friends low-cost backpacked all over Europe, eastern and western, as students. As for luxuries, an oft' repeated fact here is that Yugoslavia had color television before Italy. Because of the freedom of movement we were also the source of a lot of smuggled jeans and other "exclusive" goods in even the relatively better off countries like the Czech Republic. Finally, art, especially music, was allowed to be far more irreverent and disrespectful to authority here than what I'm led to believe about the other former Communist countries. Wasn't all the products in Yugoslavia trash though? Like everything would break all the time?
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 17:05
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:Pop quiz: Which former tax official is lead the charge in this fight in this decade? Hint: It's not the guy who wanted to equip tourists with Google Glasses to spy on shopkeepers. Your capability for mixing stuff into a confusing slurry is impressive but, again, that's a completely different thing. Other than the word "tax", there is nothing in common between a hare-brained scheme to catch people dodging the VAT, and countries using fiscal dumping as a way to increase their competitiveness.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 17:20
|
|
|
Sulla-Marius 88 posted:are you classifying the greens as centre-left rather than left? because the SPD could also be classified as centre-left, so i feel like there should be grades here.. The greens are centre-NIMBY. State green parties from the North still are still in the process of throwing kinda sorta leftist social policy overboard, but the Southern greens have already completed the transition into the party for former rebellious leftists who want to pretend they haven't become part of the system they're benefitting from and for homeowners who really like the view from their million euro mansions. Also don't forget the green party helped send the German army abroad for the first time since WW2.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 17:40
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
It cant be said enough that curbing tax dumping and killing offshores would improve the eu by 3000%.also reform the way structural funds work because at it is now its a pit of snakes and corruption.also it would be cool if the ec was consistent in its decision making ,please refer to the pigs mess that is the bailout and privatization of Novo Banco in Portugal.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 18:08
|
|
|
is this the year where parliamentary elections are actually meaningful in this forsaken land
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
Toplowtech posted:Lol if Macron wins the Republicans could still probably get enough parliament members elected to get Sarkozy (or Fillon lol) prime minister for all we know. I have serious doubts Macron's victory could cause a PS or EM parliamentary victory. Unless someone is currently spending a lot of money and effort to prepare a new party. What I mean is the EU crisis will keep coming closer even with macron, doesn't matter who wins, only a matter of time. The EU is hosed in it's current form and path.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 18:39
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:Just for fun, how should the EU change? (please limit your answer to policies that are not just wealth transfers from the North-East to the South-West) Full adoption of the Euro by all member states, federalisation of tax collecting, federalisation of government spending. Synchronise national elections with EU parliamentary elections and have the ballots for national parties also include the EU party affiliation in the name (for instance, in Greece you'd see "PASOK - PES", or in Germany "CDU - EPP"). Formalise the approval of the EU executive by the European Parliament and nothing else.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 19:17
|
|
YF-23 posted:Full adoption of the Euro by all member states, federalisation of tax collecting, federalisation of government spending. Synchronise national elections with EU parliamentary elections and have the ballots for national parties also include the EU party affiliation in the name (for instance, in Greece you'd see "PASOK - PES", or in Germany "CDU - EPP"). Formalise the approval of the EU executive by the European Parliament and nothing else. I assume this new EP would respect the democratic rule that every vote should count the same?
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 19:26
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:Full adoption of the Euro by all member states, federalisation of tax collecting, federalisation of government spending. Synchronise national elections with EU parliamentary elections and have the ballots for national parties also include the EU party affiliation in the name (for instance, in Greece you'd see "PASOK - PES", or in Germany "CDU - EPP"). Formalise the approval of the EU executive by the European Parliament and nothing else. You know what would be a good first step? Abolish all the national and private postal systems, organize it into a single federal postal system, and use that as a base to start providing other EU-wide services. It might not sound like much to start with, but a unified postal system would end up directly interacting with a ton of things people do in their daily lives.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 19:32
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:Full adoption of the Euro by all member states, federalisation of tax collecting, federalisation of government spending. Synchronise national elections with EU parliamentary elections and have the ballots for national parties also include the EU party affiliation in the name (for instance, in Greece you'd see "PASOK - PES", or in Germany "CDU - EPP"). Formalise the approval of the EU executive by the European Parliament and nothing else. GaussianCopula posted:I assume this new EP would respect the democratic rule that every vote should count the same?
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 19:41
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:I assume this new EP would respect the democratic rule that every vote should count the same? Yes. Here's a problem with the EU today: national politics vastly overshadow European politics. So when people in elections, they don't think about how that affects the EU as a whole. When the Germans vote for Merkel and the CDU, or the French for Hollande and the PS, they think about how that will affect national politics rather than general EU policy. If you give the EU and the EP more authority, and make the relations between local parties and governments with the European institutions more clear, you will promote a culture of treating national politics as part of European politics. Essentially what I'm saying is that, I think there should be a more harmonised political discourse in the EU, so that when people from Spain, Greece, Germany and Latvia all vote together, they make a decision on the same issues. A Buttery Pastry posted:Are you suggesting making it so you had just one vote for both national and EU elections? That's going to be a problem with the parties that aren't represented in both, aside from the fact that people might not want to vote for the same parties in the national and EU elections. Having both elections at the same time might be a good idea, in terms of turnout, but I wonder if it wouldn't just strengthen the trend of using EU elections as another means to punish national parties. I mean having both elections happen at the same time. National parties that don't have an EU party affiliation could just have "Unaffiliated" or something to that effect next to their name on the national ballot.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:Yes. Here's a problem with the EU today: national politics vastly overshadow European politics. So when people in elections, they don't think about how that affects the EU as a whole. When the Germans vote for Merkel and the CDU, or the French for Hollande and the PS, they think about how that will affect national politics rather than general EU policy. If you give the EU and the EP more authority, and make the relations between local parties and governments with the European institutions more clear, you will promote a culture of treating national politics as part of European politics. Essentially what I'm saying is that, I think there should be a more harmonised political discourse in the EU, so that when people from Spain, Greece, Germany and Latvia all vote together, they make a decision on the same issues.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 20:58
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:I mean having both elections happen at the same time. National parties that don't have an EU party affiliation could just have "Unaffiliated" or something to that effect next to their name on the national ballot. YF-23 posted:Yes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 21:07
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:Yes. Here's a problem with the EU today: national politics vastly overshadow European politics. So when people in elections, they don't think about how that affects the EU as a whole. When the Germans vote for Merkel and the CDU, or the French for Hollande and the PS, they think about how that will affect national politics rather than general EU policy. If you give the EU and the EP more authority, and make the relations between local parties and governments with the European institutions more clear, you will promote a culture of treating national politics as part of European politics. Essentially what I'm saying is that, I think there should be a more harmonised political discourse in the EU, so that when people from Spain, Greece, Germany and Latvia all vote together, they make a decision on the same issues. This idea is fun, but it suffers from a pretty major practical drawback: you'd need to rewrite a bunch of Constitutions to align the length of a regular parliamentary mandate with that of an EP mandate.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2017 22:56
|
|
|
jBrereton posted:Do you not think that the many working class people in the richer states who are pretty burnt out on the so-called centre left shafting large parts of the workforce aren't just going to vote "gently caress you all" in the combined EU and national elections rather than just doing it for EUlections as they do now if that happens? I mean maybe, but I did also say that I want federal tax collecting and government spending. That means that the north can't vote for the south to cut their pensions because pensions are managed by the EU and are as a result harmonised across it, for instance. This would, in effect, result in a transfer of wealth from the richer countries to the poorer ones, much in the same way that California puts in more in the US federal budget than it receives from it, or how pretty much any country ends up with its distribution of the budget. Flowers For Algeria posted:This idea is fun, but it suffers from a pretty major practical drawback: you'd need to rewrite a bunch of Constitutions to align the length of a regular parliamentary mandate with that of an EP mandate. Forums friend GC asked for a pie-in-the-sky dream reform of the EU that is not just "take money from the north and give it to the south", I know it's unrealistic as poo poo and that countries would throw a hissy-fit about any and all parts of it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 00:46
|
|
|
The EU either has to jump in much harder into being the "United States of Europe" or just dismantle the whole thing. It isn't something you can do half measure wise.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 01:59
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:The EU either has to jump in much harder into being the "United States of Europe" or just dismantle the whole thing. It isn't something you can do half measure wise. Monetary policy with no unified fiscal policy... aka Articles of Confederation. . Didnt work
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 05:32
|
|
|
Can we have a European FBI fighting organized crime and political corruption? Tia.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 06:42
|
|
|
Toplowtech posted:Can we have a European FBI fighting organized crime and political corruption? Tia.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 07:06
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:This would, in effect, result in a transfer of wealth from the richer countries to the poorer ones, much in the same way that California puts in more in the US federal budget than it receives from it, or how pretty much any country ends up with its distribution of the budget. You mean like the EU structural funds that already move hundreds of billions of tax money from richer countries to poorer ones? punk rebel ecks posted:The EU either has to jump in much harder into being the "United States of Europe" or just dismantle the whole thing. It isn't something you can do half measure wise. Wait, are you doing that "what have the Romans ever done for us?" bit from Monty Python? Also, we gonna see with Brexit how a life without the EU is gonna look like very soon. (Spoileralert: exactly the same way as in the EU, but without the democratic representation. It's not like you can reverse generations of economic and cultural integration, nor do people want to) GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Apr 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 10:14
|
|
|
Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Spoileralert: exactly the same way as in the EU, but without the democratic representation. So exactly the same as in the EU. Also I want to share a cartoon from the politoon thread because  Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Apr 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 10:47
|
|
|
Disbanding the EU is not a great idea, it has a scope in which it's very useful. The problem is the expansion of EU into stuff that it's not good for, especially since it started out as a technocratic organization unfit to make decisions on stuff that can be solved within a single nation's borders through democratic means. No European country on their own will be a blip on the radar in fighting climate change or forging trade deals. The deals EU made may be bad for some people, but without EU, the deals would be of the "take it or leave it" variety for most EU countries, and small countries can't simply rely on domestic markets like the USA. The overreaches of the EU are simply becoming so bad that leaving it is a sane forward-looking choice if meaningful reform turns out to be impossible or far too slow. The people of a country have no obligation to sacrifice in order to reform an international giant that anyone can leave if it doesn't work for them. Who can even be sure that reforming the EU would be easier than destroying it and starting a new organization to replace it?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 11:41
|
|
|
Since today is papa erdogan's referendum date, are there any compelling liveblogs to follow? Compared to the brexit hysteria worldwide the whole thing seems a bit quiet and I am actually curious to know what's happening.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 12:38
|
|
|
To compound to that, the EU is a much better way to combat climate change and environmental defeadation than individual countries. Or it would be if it wasn't so ridiculously sold to capital. So as much as it pains and as much as I see thr downsides I don't see why keep it. Because reform is nigh impossible: either you get a majority of the commission elected on a reform/left wing platform in enough countries to offset Germany and the Netherland (who benefit from the current mess) while resisting the pressure of capital applied through Germany and th Eu, for as long as it takes for th different electoral cycles to elect such platform or you change th treaties, which requires unanimity (minus Ireland of course). Oh and then the massive media campaign against such a movement, as evidenced by Melenchon, podemos and anyone who doesnt toe the line on the left. So yeah at this point any change will be traumatic, to my mind. The minions of capital in Brussels just don't see outside their bubble.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 12:42
|
|
|
AFAIK, the EU doesn't even so much as fart, without the consent of the majority of the democratically elected governments, their representatives or the democratically elected parliament. As long as the majority of countries have fiscally conservative populations and elect fiscally conservative governments, nothing is ever going to change, no matter how often you re-found the EU under a new branding. I totally agree that the current model is just not working out for a lot of countries and that a unified budget is a possible solution, but there is no way to get that though with all of the 27 member states and reform from withing. That's like herding 27 methed up cats. The way to go is a two track union, like France and Germany want to. Those that want closer integration can go ahead and leave the door open behind them for the rest. Getting a fiscal union between France& Germany would be a nightmare, but at least it's not COMPLETELY impossible like with all 27 members.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 12:46
|
|
|
Can someone explain to me why countries like France would benefit from more fiscal stimuli, given that they had an average fiscal stimulus (aka budget deficit) of about 5% since the 2008 GFC, supported by a very expansive monetary policy and QE? The issue is that the economies of certain EU member states, and in some cases most of their public sector, need a drastic overhaul but that the national governments are too beholen to vested interests and too weak to actually takle the real problem, especially since they are under siege by populists from both sides, who simply refuse to accept reality. The only country in the EU that is really doing austerity is Greece, where even the idiots from SYRIZA understand that they are better of with the Euro than without it. Oh, and wrt the unified budget bullshit: Do you really think that any country that would be worse of as a result of it (and given that there is no free lunch, there will be countries that would be worse off) would agree to such a proposal? In the best case you would give an institutions like the Eurogroup the power to veto/have to approve national budgets, but I'm not sure that's what the people itt have in mind. GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Apr 16, 2017 |
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 13:31
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:Can someone explain to me why countries like France would benefit from more fiscal stimuli, given that they had an average fiscal stimulus (aka budget deficit) of about 5% since the 2008 GFC, supported by a very expansive monetary policy and QE? I would use the word fiscal stimulus for temporary spending increases rather than budget deficits, because otherwise the word loses its meaning. Basically countries don't run budget surpluses, the average budget deficit historically is about equal with inflation, because deficit spending increases the money supply (the only other way is bank lending) and you don't want the real aggregate value of the money in circulation to drop without a good reason. You can see that if the average is 2-3%, to have a measurable stimulatory effect, you have to be prepared to spend considerably more than that. And aiming for deficits considerably lower than that in an environment where the private sector isn't going to pick up the slack is austerity. The only ways you can achieve public surpluses or even deficits lower than the rate of inflation is through private debt, trade deficits or decrease in GDP. The surpluses of the 90's were a historical aberration caused by bank deregulation, monetarism and a consequent massive increase in private debt. Germany can chase the schwarze Null because of the unique way their economy is organized toward exports. An average deficit of 5% after a recession that has only recently ended is Good Politics anywhere outside of the Eurozone. If anything, it hasn't been enough. Shuffling money around doesn't achieve the same effect, because aggregate spending isn't going to rise unless someone actually spends more. And trying to coax the private sector into spending more by simply making structural reforms is like herding cats, you don't have time for that in the middle of a recession. Whether an unified budget would be good depends on its content. If the budget is determined by neoliberals ignoring history in favor of ideology and aiming for 0% rather than 2% in average deficits, the budgets would be bad for practically everyone. If it's designed by people that understand money and fully use the powers of the ECB to create it as required, the budgets would most likely be good for everyone. uncop fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Apr 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 16:28
|
|
|
Syriza is doing austerity because Germany is dangling its banking sector over the side of a bridge supervillain-style.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 16:28
|
|
|
Toplowtech posted:Can we have a European FBI fighting organized crime and political corruption? Tia. Yes, let's have an organisation to murder people like Melenchon and Tsipras, that will go down well. What next, a European CIA?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 16:38
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Monetary policy with no unified fiscal policy... aka Articles of Confederation. Yep. Which is why they either have to go all in or not go at all. Toplowtech posted:Can we have a European FBI fighting organized crime and political corruption? Tia. There is no FBI equivalent in most European countries? Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Wait, are you doing that "what have the Romans ever done for us?" bit from Monty Python? I...don't know what you are responding to. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Apr 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 17:14
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:Oh, and wrt the unified budget bullshit: Do you really think that any country that would be worse of as a result of it (and given that there is no free lunch, there will be countries that would be worse off) would agree to such a proposal? In the best case you would give an institutions like the Eurogroup the power to veto/have to approve national budgets, but I'm not sure that's what the people itt have in mind. I don't think countries that would stand to lose in a unified budget deal would agree with it unless it's either a gradual transition to it, or under exceptional circumstances. I think both of those are a possibility in the future, but am also well aware that this might also be the wrong timeline for something of that sort.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 19:06
|
|
|
Agnosticnixie posted:What next, a European CIA? Project GCUltra. School Nickname fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Apr 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 14:29 |
|
|
YF-23 posted:I don't think countries that would stand to lose in a unified budget deal would agree with it unless it's either a gradual transition to it, or under exceptional circumstances. I think both of those are a possibility in the future, but am also well aware that this might also be the wrong timeline for something of that sort. It would probably be something like the US government, with each country continuing to run their own state budgets but also getting a unified federal budget and a clear separation of responsibilities between state and federal government. This could be phased in very slowly.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2017 21:45
|
|