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Maarek posted:Isn't the whole point of a sacrifice that you give up something that is important to you or at least important to someone? In the show they are starving and trapped by a snow storm and his witch buddy tells him that he has to burn her or the world will literally be destroyed by ice zombies. I don't think you are meant to take what he does as casual, it's something he does as a last resort. The problem is that the conflict is dumb and rushed into. Stannis sat at the wall correcting grammar and lecturing Sam instead of being an actual character with goals and plans to accomplish them. His one idea 'March to Winterfell and siege it', which was a stupid idea refuted by Roose in two sentences last episode, was sabotaged offscreen by Buffalo Bill.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:46
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Stannis didn't ensure victory by burning Shireen. He insured not only his own defeat, but the death of his house by burning his legacy to ashes (Shireen was clutching a WOODEN STAG AS SHE BURNED). The writers put Stannis in a poo poo situation with no out when he hasn't made any mistakes in the last two seasons, for no purpose other than shock value. Show Stannis is completely hosed narratively, and having Shireen burn just seems like a gross cruelty that further shuffles characters into a white or black morality. Nobody is going to give a poo poo about Stannis the daughter-burner when he finally meets his end next season, and so the tragedy Benioff and Weiss are trying to write is going to completely fall flat because at this point gently caress Stannis, gently caress zombie Jon, gently caress Daenerys, and go Night's King! Cleanse us of this beastly idiocy!
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Jun 8, 2015 04:46
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NutritiousSnack posted:lol next season is ending on Jon Snow being stabbed to "death" and Ayra going blind. Also I guess that Vanity Fair piece was wrong.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:47
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wyoak posted:NEXT season ends with Jon getting stabbed? What's he going to do for 9 episodes? I think he meant episode I hope he meant episode
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Jun 8, 2015 04:48
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Scrree posted:Stannis didn't ensure victory by burning Shireen. He insured not only his own defeat, but the death of his house by burning his legacy to ashes (Shireen was clutching a WOODEN STAG AS SHE BURNED). The writers put Stannis in a poo poo situation with no out when he hasn't made any mistakes in the last two seasons, for no purpose other than shock value. Show Stannis is completely hosed narratively, and having Shireen burn just seems like a gross cruelty that further shuffles characters into a white or black morality. Nobody is going to give a poo poo about Stannis the daughter-burner when he finally meets his end next season, and so the tragedy Benioff and Weiss are trying to write is going to completely fall flat because at this point gently caress Stannis, gently caress zombie Jon, gently caress Daenerys, and go Night's King! Cleanse us of this beastly idiocy! What tragedy are you talking about? They're casting Stannis in the negative now so that Brienne can kill him later. edit - look at facebook; the casual fans HATE Stannis now
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Jun 8, 2015 04:49
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Is there a collection of these somewhere?
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Jun 8, 2015 04:50
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Scrree posted:Stannis didn't ensure victory by burning Shireen. He insured not only his own defeat, but the death of his house by burning his legacy to ashes (Shireen was clutching a WOODEN STAG AS SHE BURNED). The writers put Stannis in a poo poo situation with no out when he hasn't made any mistakes in the last two seasons, for no purpose other than shock value. Show Stannis is completely hosed narratively, and having Shireen burn just seems like a gross cruelty that further shuffles characters into a white or black morality. Nobody is going to give a poo poo about Stannis the daughter-burner when he finally meets his end next season, and so the tragedy Benioff and Weiss are trying to write is going to completely fall flat because at this point gently caress Stannis, gently caress zombie Jon, gently caress Daenerys, and go Night's King! Cleanse us of this beastly idiocy!
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Jun 8, 2015 04:50
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Arrrthritis posted:Stannis in the show, someone who has gone against Melisandre And saw his fleet destroyed. quote:who survived being starved out for the better part of a year And cut off the man who saved him's fingers because he decided he had to quote:who just recently established that he would move heaven and earth for his daughter Years ago he refused to let her sickness consume her, and obviously still cares for her in his own, Stannis way. Sadly, that was Stannis pre-Melisandre and pre-Ramsey basically defeating him by destroying his stores. quote:It's writing in the sense that all writing is writing. The show wants to get from point A to point B so badly that it doesn't care just how schizophrenic the journey there is. Except it's really not, but you'd have to stop convincing yourself they didn't build to this to see it.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:50
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Scrree posted:Stannis didn't ensure victory by burning Shireen. He insured not only his own defeat, but the death of his house by burning his legacy to ashes (Shireen was clutching a WOODEN STAG AS SHE BURNED). The writers put Stannis in a poo poo situation with no out when he hasn't made any mistakes in the last two seasons, for no purpose other than shock value. Show Stannis is completely hosed narratively, and having Shireen burn just seems like a gross cruelty that further shuffles characters into a white or black morality. Nobody is going to give a poo poo about Stannis the daughter-burner when he finally meets his end next season, and so the tragedy Benioff and Weiss are trying to write is going to completely fall flat because at this point gently caress Stannis, gently caress zombie Jon, gently caress Daenerys, and go Night's King! Cleanse us of this beastly idiocy! It broke the blizzard so that he could march on Winterfell, and his House doesn't matter if his destiny is saving the world from the very real Other invasion coming from the North. Him burning Shireen is not some kind of punishment the writers are inflicting because he did something wrong and they need to show the audience that this mistake is being corrected (burning the food is just a narrative device), it is being sent as a test of character to see if when presented with the decision between his duty to the realm and his sense of justice and love of his daughter, he chooses duty. The story needed this choice because we're about to discover his destiny is not his own so he'll feel like he did all of this for nothing. This is literally Biblical and Classical tragedy, ref. Abraham and Agamemnon.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:51
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Dolash posted:Stannis is where he is as the result of his decisions - namely, his decision to continue to pursue the throne in the name of duty. It's what's driven him to not give up, to take risks, to follow visions to the North, and now to fight the Boltons. The decision to burn Shireen is the culmination of this decision when it comes into conflict with his sense of justice and love for his family. Burning Shireen is wrong, he loves Shireen, but given where his decisions have lead him he has to choose between her and his duty, and his chooses duty. The way you present it makes what the show has been doing seem like something well done and thought out, but let's consider for a moment that Stannis hasn't gained much from following R'hllor either. The Multitude of sacrifices he has made for him has resulted in- what, easier winds on the way to the wall? His one sacrifice of Gendry's blood hasn't even gone all the way through yet, as Balon is still alive for some unknown reason. This is why it seems so out of character for Stannis to sacrifice his daughter at the first bit of resistance he encounters. It doesn't make it a decision on Stannis' behalf, because it doesn't seem like it's Stannis making the decision. Rather, it just seems like the events of the story unfolding because that's the way it has to happen. I can appreciate that you enjoy the show immensely, but not all of us have your precognitive abilities regarding the show's story. You're defending it on merits that it doesn't have yet (and if this sacrifice does turn into a part of a good, well thought-out character arc, then I will be thoroughly embarrassed/impressed.) It's difficult for us to continue watching when the scenes it does create on its own end up making no sense, or just being cheesy.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:51
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Scrree posted:Stannis didn't ensure victory by burning Shireen. He insured not only his own defeat, but the death of his house by burning his legacy to ashes (Shireen was clutching a WOODEN STAG AS SHE BURNED). The writers put Stannis in a poo poo situation with no out when he hasn't made any mistakes in the last two seasons, for no purpose other than shock value. Show Stannis is completely hosed narratively, and having Shireen burn just seems like a gross cruelty that further shuffles characters into a white or black morality. Nobody is going to give a poo poo about Stannis the daughter-burner when he finally meets his end next season, and so the tragedy Benioff and Weiss are trying to write is going to completely fall flat because at this point gently caress Stannis, gently caress zombie Jon, gently caress Daenerys, and go Night's King! Cleanse us of this beastly idiocy! Maybe they want us to hate everyone in Westeros so that when the walkers raze the whole continent by the end of season 7 we can take it as a happy ending.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:51
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kater posted:His one idea 'March to Winterfell and siege it', which was a stupid idea refuted by Roose in two sentences last episode, was sabotaged offscreen by Buffalo Bill. I believe in the show Davos brings this up and Stannis' reply is that since winters last years he doesn't have the option of waiting it out. Stannis views it as a last ditch chance where he will either cement his victory in the north or die in the process and if he followed Davos' advice, where would he even go? They already ran him out of Dragonstone. I guess his only option would be to become king of the wall or something?
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Jun 8, 2015 04:52
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Let's all just take a moment and imagine how hosed Stannis would be if Ramsay had brought 30 good men.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:52
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El Hefe posted:Maybe they want us to hate everyone in Westeros so that when the walkers raze the whole continent by the end of season 7 we can take it as a happy ending. Pretty sure this is basically the only happy ending possible at this point.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:54
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DFu4ever posted:Except it's really not, but you'd have to stop convincing yourself they didn't build to this to see it. Well jeez, you got me there! Arrrthritis posted:I mean, we all saw this coming. We just hoped that D&D wouldn't stoop so low as to do the most ham-handed thing possible. Oh wait.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:54
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Kusagari posted:Let's all just take a moment and imagine how hosed Stannis would be if Ramsay had brought 30 good men. "The northmen know their land better than we do." It's a loving camp!
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Jun 8, 2015 04:55
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three posted:Pretty sure this is basically the only happy ending possible at this point.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:56
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The only happy ending is Gurm realizing he's never going to finish the books and spoiling the show on his blog.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:57
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Arrrthritis posted:The way you present it makes what the show has been doing seem like something well done and thought out, but let's consider for a moment that Stannis hasn't gained much from following R'hllor either. The Multitude of sacrifices he has made for him has resulted in- what, easier winds on the way to the wall? His one sacrifice of Gendry's blood hasn't even gone all the way through yet, as Balon is still alive for some unknown reason. You forgot that Melisandre's shadow killed Renly, which is what gave Stannis a start in the first place, and her visions were critical in showing him that he had to follow the letter and go North. She's the one that convinced him his destiny is real, and now that he's been to the Wall and hear what's going on he's the only King actually acting with knowledge of the Other invasion. It's not the first bit of resistance. We've had several episodes establishing how desperate this campaign is, how taking Winterfell is do-or-die, how the weather is getting worse, how they're trapped. He refused to burn her at first, hoping the food would last until the storm was over, but now there's no food left and he's forced to choose. It does not take precognitive ability. Everything I'm talking about is stuff that's actually happened. At most, it presumes that Jon will be revealed as the true hero and steal Stannis's destiny which will make his sacrifices in vain and make him prime villain material, but that's not strictly necessary to understand what's going on in the here and now. If you want something out of the past, consider this - Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer in his wife's heart before he could save humanity. Stannis had yet to make a commensurate sacrifice despite being Azor Ahai's destined incarnation. Of course he was going to have to burn Shireen.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:57
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420smoke shireen erryday
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Jun 8, 2015 05:02
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I don't think white walkers even do magic to bring people back, I think it's just something that occurs when something dies around them, so it's a natural thing for them and they don't see it as evil. The arm raising at Hardhome looked cool, sure, but there were already people turning way before he did that and we didn't see any magic casting for them. Plus wights seem to turn other people into wights when white walkers aren't anywhere to be found. At this point you can't even really call them villains compared to whatever the hell it is Mel is doing
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Jun 8, 2015 05:03
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Darko posted:What tragedy are you talking about? They're casting Stannis in the negative now so that Brienne can kill him later. They turned a morally ambiguous character (only King to give a poo poo about the Others, likes and supports Jon Snow, best chance of vengeance against the Boltons/Freys) into a hated villain for no reason but to make his death more palatable next season? Is that good writing, or more hack plotting with an added pinch of gross 'burning a child to death' shock value spice?
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Jun 8, 2015 05:04
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Hot Dog Day 80 posted:Is there a collection of these somewhere? Only other one that I know of 
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Jun 8, 2015 05:05
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Scrree posted:They turned a morally ambiguous character (only King to give a poo poo about the Others, likes and supports Jon Snow, best chance of vengeance against the Boltons/Freys) into a hated villain for no reason but to make his death more palatable next season? Is that good writing, or more hack plotting with an added pinch of gross 'burning a child to death' shock value spice?
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Jun 8, 2015 05:05
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Ekusukariba posted:Only other one that I know of Lol that "Jaime tours the Riverlands, nothing happens" is compelling at all.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:08
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wyoak posted:Or they made a character make a terrible sacrifice in order to (he believes) save the world. Yeah, it's really not that far out of character. Stannis is a douche, Stannis has always been a douche in the books and the show. No matter how he feels and what he actually wants, he's willing to do what he believes it takes to be king. Did people who think this is out of character forget season 2, or something? He had his little brother assassinated by a shadow monster, and that was a considerably less desperate situation.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:09
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Dolash posted:It broke the blizzard so that he could march on Winterfell, and his House doesn't matter if his destiny is saving the world from the very real Other invasion coming from the North. Him burning Shireen is not some kind of punishment the writers are inflicting because he did something wrong and they need to show the audience that this mistake is being corrected (burning the food is just a narrative device), it is being sent as a test of character to see if when presented with the decision between his duty to the realm and his sense of justice and love of his daughter, he chooses duty. The story needed this choice because we're about to discover his destiny is not his own so he'll feel like he did all of this for nothing. I feel like you're given the showrunners too much credit. The way David Benioff frames it is that Stannis didn't do it for duty, he did for ambition. That's a significant difference. All along they've been saying that Stannis is driven out a desire to be king and not out of duty or a desire to save anyone by fulfilling his destiny. To me, this is a fundamental misinterpretation of the character and I think it is the reason for the scene from this last episode. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 05:09
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nooneofconsequence posted:"The northmen know their land better than we do." There's a cut bit from the previous episode, where they're setting up camp and put all the food in a cave with a sign that says 'Definitely not a secret passage. No Northmen allowed!!!!" and everyone takes the sign at face value because when has a sign ever lied? Dolash posted:You forgot that Melisandre's shadow killed Renly, which is what gave Stannis a start in the first place, and her visions were critical in showing him that he had to follow the letter and go North. She's the one that convinced him his destiny is real, and now that he's been to the Wall and hear what's going on he's the only King actually acting with knowledge of the Other invasion. Yeah, that's true. I can concede that it puts the lord of light in a favorable situation, but I still don't think it's enough to bend over so willingly. But yes, it is the first bit of resistance. Stannis knew the conditions would worsen, he knew that the siege might not go as well as it could have. This is the first bit of resistance because it's really the first time poo poo goes wrong, instead of "Oh hey the snow's setting in we might want to hurry it up Mr. Mannis." You defend this show's decisions on a lot of points like it's going to be a part of him breaking- that this sacrifice will get him further towards his goal, only to realize that Jon was Azor Ahai all along. We don't know that yet. With your track record you could very well be right and that is very well how it plays out. But what if you're wrong? The last explanation was superfluous. I'm not complaining about a lack of foreshadowing or reasoning behind the event. I'm complaining that the show did a poor job of bringing the characters to that point.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:10
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I kind of wish they went more into Stannis rallying the North instead of it being implied that the Bolton's have all their support because of fear or something.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:11
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Dumb book question (I don't think it's been clarified in the show, I can't remember) - What sort of collateral does the Iron Bank actually have over King's Landing? Just not giving them any more loans?
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Jun 8, 2015 05:11
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Brock Samson posted:No Davos, march upward
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Jun 8, 2015 05:12
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discoukulele posted:Dumb book question (I don't think it's been clarified in the show, I can't remember) - What sort of collateral does the Iron Bank actually have over King's Landing? Just not giving them any more loans? If you cross the Iron Bank they spend poo poo loads of money to see you toppled over
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Jun 8, 2015 05:12
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discoukulele posted:Dumb book question (I don't think it's been clarified in the show, I can't remember) - What sort of collateral does the Iron Bank actually have over King's Landing? Just not giving them any more loans? They basically hire sellswords to kick you out/kill you, and put someone they support in your place.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:13
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discoukulele posted:Dumb book question (I don't think it's been clarified in the show, I can't remember) - What sort of collateral does the Iron Bank actually have over King's Landing? Just not giving them any more loans? The Faceless Men is right across the street
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Jun 8, 2015 05:13
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Scrree posted:They turned a morally ambiguous character (only King to give a poo poo about the Others, likes and supports Jon Snow, best chance of vengeance against the Boltons/Freys) into a hated villain for no reason but to make his death more palatable next season? Is that good writing, or more hack plotting with an added pinch of gross 'burning a child to death' shock value spice? I don't think they planned on this reaction, per se. I mean, they probably knew a lot of people would just see Stannis burning a little girl and flip their lid, but the sheer volume of people who seem deliberately resistant to trying to understand why he did it or what it means for the story is a bit surprising. I think the overriding desire to criticize perceived adaption changes is partly to blame. Theon burned two boys to death just to cover his fuckups and people are still able to be interested in what's going on with him. I mean, they don't think he's a hero, but it's not like people claimed it only happened for shock value and served no purpose. It was an important part of his character's desperate slide into ruin.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:13
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the gently caress did I just watch
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Jun 8, 2015 05:14
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Dolash posted:I don't think they planned on this reaction, per se. I mean, they probably knew a lot of people would just see Stannis burning a little girl and flip their lid, but the sheer volume of people who seem deliberately resistant to trying to understand why he did it or what it means for the story is a bit surprising. I think the overriding desire to criticize perceived adaption changes is partly to blame. It's also just that people are obsessed with the narrative of Stannis-as-hero. You're going to see the same thing (from a different million GoT fans) when Dany commits genocide or dies horribly or something in the next two seasons.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:15
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discoukulele posted:Dumb book question (I don't think it's been clarified in the show, I can't remember) - What sort of collateral does the Iron Bank actually have over King's Landing? Just not giving them any more loans? And they simultaneously call in all existing debts on the continent. Ruining the whole economy even worse.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:16
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The only people that seem pouty are book readers who thought Stannis was actually a "good guy" and got invested in that idea, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Show watchers are upset at Stannis being such a shitlord, not the show itself.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:16
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In It For The Tank posted:Stannis is driven out a desire to be king rather than out of a desire to save anyone. Stannis is driven out of the belief that because he rightfully is supposed to be king, than he absolutely HAS to be king. Mel's Azor Ahai stuff just makes this drive to be king worse, because not only is he supposed to be king, it's also his mystical destiny. And that is the key thing about the character. If he wasn't the perceived rightful successor to his brother, then he'd give two shits about being on the throne. It's not personal ambition, it's pure, unbridled obsession with making things the way they are supposed to be. He's been this way since the beginning. DFu4ever fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 05:16
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