WrenP-Complete posted:Some scientists respond to Google Memo Man: https://archive.is/z6xxP what Please someone help me contextualize this.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:02
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Discendo Vox posted:what a google engineer wrote a pissy memo about how women don't belong in tech and sent it over company email to trusted friends. it was leaked, he got fired, the internet is freaking out about PC liberalism and censorship run amok it pops up on page 348 itt http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320/amp e: or are you asking for context on the obscure "free speech magazine that isn't scared of dangerous ideas" boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 18:09
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boner confessor posted:and the rockefellers, fords, vanderbilts are largely gone. if the best success you can hope for is that your children live lives of idle luxury by trusting their assets to someone more competent, welp
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Aug 8, 2017 18:22
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From all I hear, programming anything tends to be a super lovely workplace with everything wrong with other industries turned up to 11 and very poor oversight, wouldn't be surprised if endemic sexism is another aspect of that. Companies want young, compliant, fresh-faced nerds with no personal lives they can burn out and discard for the next generation. Even the biggest tech companies often have horrible internal culture. (Microsoft is apparently still completely hosed from stack ranking's legacy) And of course it's especially bad in 'startups' that are expected to be 'innovative' and 'disruptive', and thus not obliged to follow rules or common sense. Especially when they can present a vaguely 'progressive' trendy front contrasting stodgy grumpy men in suits. It's not a problem that's going to be fixed just by firing executives (though that probably helps) or yelling at nerds, the whole culture's a rotten facade for capitalism's ugly mug.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:23
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Inescapable Duck posted:From all I hear, programming anything tends to be a super lovely workplace with everything wrong with other industries turned up to 11 and very poor oversight, wouldn't be surprised if endemic sexism is another aspect of that. Companies want young, compliant, fresh-faced nerds with no personal lives they can burn out and discard for the next generation. Even the biggest tech companies often have horrible internal culture. (Microsoft is apparently still completely hosed from stack ranking's legacy) So to be clear this screed is based entirely on "all you've heard" and no actual personal experience at all ?
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Aug 8, 2017 18:32
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Inescapable Duck posted:From all I hear, programming anything tends to be a super lovely workplace with everything wrong with other industries turned up to 11 and very poor oversight, wouldn't be surprised if endemic sexism is another aspect of that. Companies want young, compliant, fresh-faced nerds with no personal lives they can burn out and discard for the next generation. Even the biggest tech companies often have horrible internal culture. (Microsoft is apparently still completely hosed from stack ranking's legacy)
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Aug 8, 2017 18:33
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jre posted:So to be clear this screed is based entirely on "all you've heard" and no actual personal experience at all ? Cicero posted:What a bizarre opinion. I can't speak to sexism, or racism really, but working as a coder for Big Tech has been pretty awesome for me. Work hours are normal in size and extremely flexible, coworkers are smart, pay is amazing. Google's culture is particularly great, I love that there's an internal meme site that frequently lambasts executive decisions, how many companies permit open mockery on company resources like that? You guys, I just posted a while back a bunch of links talking about how gross and hostile the tech industry is, including with the Big Guys. Did you just ignore all the stuff coming out this year regarding sexual harassment?
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Aug 8, 2017 18:39
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boner confessor posted:a google engineer wrote a pissy memo about how women don't belong in tech and sent it over company email to trusted friends. it was leaked, he got fired, the internet is freaking out about PC liberalism and censorship run amok Yeah, the latter. When I have more time I'll dig into the science being asserted in the article and post it in the pseudoscience thread. Me and the other usual suspects are all too busy/stressed to do so atm. I'd be grateful if someone could give a rundown on this "Quillette" and its founder in the meantime. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 18:42
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Shirec posted:You guys, I just posted a while back a bunch of links talking about how gross and hostile the tech industry is, including with the Big Guys. Did you just ignore all the stuff coming out this year regarding sexual harassment? So yes, you're just parroting third hand hearsay
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Aug 8, 2017 18:43
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Shirec posted:You guys, I just posted a while back a bunch of links talking about how gross and hostile the tech industry is, including with the Big Guys. Did you just ignore all the stuff coming out this year regarding sexual harassment?
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Aug 8, 2017 18:44
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IMHO the fireable offense is writing a thesis that goes from research that says "women are on average less interested in CS" to arguing a case based on "the women who are interested in CS are less capable" It's not just sexist, it's bad statistical practice.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:45
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Buffer posted:Do boot camps normally cover CS math fundamentals? "CS math fundamentals" is a pretty broad subject area. Boot camps will certainly cover logical branching statements, but they're not likely to go De Morgan's law. Linear algebra and number theory is right out.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:49
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jre posted:So yes, you're just parroting third hand hearsay I am talking about actual studies and interviews that were done on why people leave the tech industry. And I currently work in more of a finance role, but I work with other women who have told me some skeezy rear end poo poo that has happened to them. I've been lucky in that regard, but I trust what my friends have told me. Just gonna quote from the actual survey so you see it http://www.kaporcenter.org/tech-leavers/ quote:
Cicero posted:Did you not notice how I said I couldn't speak to sexism? The person I was replying to was saying dumb crap about big tech companies' culture far beyond sexist or racist hostility. Apologies then, but you can't really divorce culture from those things either
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Aug 8, 2017 18:52
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Klyith posted:IMHO the fireable offense is writing a thesis that goes from research that says "women are on average less interested in CS" to arguing a case based on "the women who are interested in CS are less capable" This is why I'm finding that quillette article so bizzare.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:53
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isn't quillette supposed to be jacobin for libertarians
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Aug 8, 2017 18:57
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Arsenic Lupin posted:It will drat well improve the lives of women at Google who don't like hearing their coworkers agree that they are biologically unfit to do their jobs. I dont want to defend this guy but this is the correct thing to do. Too many undergrads are just trying to get in a lab so they can toss it on their resume and PIs have wised up to this. Now (good) professors will start asking about what your scientific contributions were to the group you worked for if you're interviewing for a graduate spot. Lab chores are everyone's responsibility not just some undergrads.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:58
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:What makes CS more hostile to people than like, pure math? Women major in math to become math teachers. Count the number of female math grad students instead.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:05
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boner confessor posted:and the rockefellers, fords, vanderbilts are largely gone. if the best success you can hope for is that your children live lives of idle luxury by trusting their assets to someone more competent, welp If you inherit a billion dollars you don't need business skills, you can pay someone to do that for you and spend your energy on vanity projects like producing documentaries on wealth inequality and the 1% https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmlX3fLQrEc All those families you listed have tons of rich as poo poo descendants kicking around. The Rockefeller family voted recently to divest their fossil fuel assets because as they said in their joint statement it was immoral in light of climate change, lol.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:14
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Squalid posted:If you inherit a billion dollars you don't need business skills, you can pay someone to do that for you and spend your energy on vanity projects like producing documentaries on wealth inequality and the 1% my point is they're not really doing anything or have any actual power anymore aside from giving chunks of their dividends to charity and participating in rich elite social events that nobody cares about. like the rockefellers aren't really making any news anymore unlike gates, musk, bezos, thiel etc. the most visible face of business oriented billionaires is in silicon valley. there's no david rockefeller IV out there making waves in the tech world. the most famous vanderbilt today is anderson cooper, the carnegies are all but gone, and the rockefellers just sort of sit around in idle luxury. meanwhile the richest families in america today are the walton, koch, and mars families - all 20th century, and likely to be eclipsed in the next century. it's just difficult to have tycoons raising tycoons, and it seems there's a natural impulse for children who grow up in unimaginable wealth, even if they are well adjusted, to turn to pursuits other than business - likely because the demands of business make you a lovely parent
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Aug 8, 2017 19:24
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sarehu posted:Women major in math to become math teachers. Count the number of female math grad students instead. Oh, I didn't know you posted here, Mr. Damore.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:26
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Irradiation posted:I dont want to defend this guy but this is the correct thing to do. Too many undergrads are just trying to get in a lab so they can toss it on their resume and PIs have wised up to this. Now (good) professors will start asking about what your scientific contributions were to the group you worked for if you're interviewing for a graduate spot. He literally said he didn't want to do /any/ chores though. That's different to 'don't make me just do chores'.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:35
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My experience with bootcamps and CS industry is there is a huge gulf of between beginner and professional skill that is almost impossible to quantify. So you end with absolute beginners going to mixers and code groups with people that write fortune 500 apps. It is really hard to break into it without connections. I've seen it over and over. Some guy working 60 hours a week doesn't have time to show a new person the ropes and I don't blame them. But it makes the community really difficult to contribute to. CS tends to breed a weeder culture than discourages many people. Usually, young white male is the only connection devs have with others and the few atypical people are stretched thin.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:37
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The guy's a bit bad at seeing how others would read his writing, yes.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:37
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Irradiation posted:I dont want to defend this guy but this is the correct thing to do. Too many undergrads are just trying to get in a lab so they can toss it on their resume and PIs have wised up to this. Now (good) professors will start asking about what your scientific contributions were to the group you worked for if you're interviewing for a graduate spot. e:f,b
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Aug 8, 2017 19:38
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boner confessor posted:the carnegies are all but gone, e: see here.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:42
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Inescapable Duck posted:From all I hear, programming anything tends to be a super lovely workplace with everything wrong with other industries turned up to 11 and very poor oversight, wouldn't be surprised if endemic sexism is another aspect of that. Companies want young, compliant, fresh-faced nerds with no personal lives they can burn out and discard for the next generation. Even the biggest tech companies often have horrible internal culture. (Microsoft is apparently still completely hosed from stack ranking's legacy) I've been a programmer for 20 years and ive generally enjoyed it? I can't speak to sexism either I guess but you are seriously reaching here in the general case.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:43
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Andrew Carnegie is the guy who said "The man who dies rich, dies disgraced." His only child spent her life running the Carnegie Trust, the philanthropic organization Carnegie himself set up. The Carnegies aren't "all but gone", they just put most of the money into charity. and i think that's a great thing! i'm just saying there's royal families and other noble dynasties that go back centuries or millennia and, even though capitalism as we recognize it is only a few hundred years old, it's my opinion that business dynasties tend to flame out and collapse much quicker
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Aug 8, 2017 19:44
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boner confessor posted:and i think that's a great thing! i'm just saying there's royal families and other noble dynasties that go back centuries or millennia and, even though capitalism as we recognize it is only a few hundred years old, it's my opinion that business dynasties tend to flame out and collapse much quicker Royal families change more often than you might think actually. There's a reason the Plantagenets, Tudors and Stuarts have different last names.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:48
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Discendo Vox posted:Yeah, the latter. When I have more time I'll dig into the science being asserted in the article and post it in the pseudoscience thread. Me and the other usual suspects are all too busy/stressed to do so atm. I'd be grateful if someone could give a rundown on this "Quillette" and its founder in the meantime. I posted the response in the pseudoscience thread this morning, but way too busy to do a point-by-point analysis right now. Evil Robot posted:Who are these scientists? They seem fairly supportive of James Damore. Sorry, I don't have any information on them that isn't in that link.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:48
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boner confessor posted:and i think that's a great thing! i'm just saying there's royal families and other noble dynasties that go back centuries or millennia and, even though capitalism as we recognize it is only a few hundred years old, it's my opinion that business dynasties tend to flame out and collapse much quicker e:f,b AGAIN.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:52
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Royal heirs are raised from birth with "this is your God-given job" in a way that is hard for most business dynasties to duplicate. (Maybe the Waltons will do it; I dunno.) It is also true that most European dynasties, at least, have switched hats many times. The connection between the last Plantagenets and the first Tudor is way tenuous (which is why Henrys VII and VIII spent a lot of effort on killing the remaining Plantagenets) and the connection between the last Stuarts and the first Hanovers can barely be said to exist. The first Hanoverian king didn't even speak English. otoh the japanese emperor goes back into the very mists of the dawn of time itself (allegedly) and they just had to change the law allowing the emperor to abdicate because he doesn't want to emperor anymore the fact that it's easier to raise someone to be a figurehead rather than a captain of industry speaks to the longevity of these dynasties versus those with a more business oriented mindset. especially when you can appeal to a person to take on the mantle of hundreds of years of tradition, which is easier than appealing to them to take on the burden of adding further billions to the family's already fat portfolio like despite the french monarchy being abolished centuries ago there's still a louis XX head of the house of bourbon kicking around (and he's a stud too)
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Aug 8, 2017 19:59
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I was an usher at the Goldman awards (the Goldman in Goldman-Sachs) in 2015 at the San Fran opera house. it was extremely lol worthy when they gave the prize to Berta Caceres, an anti-dam activist from Honduras, and she stood up to declare her win a blow against predatory capitalism and step towards the triumph of socialism, right there in front of all those smiling banking magnates. It was less lol worthy when she was murdered the next year by right wing paramilitaries. That was a really weird scene, very San Fran. There were slick guys in tuxes mingling with buff dudes in tight shorts and high-top sneakers and hippy chicks looking like they just got back from six months of backpacking in Bhutan. When you're that rich though rules like dress codes rarely mean anything, at least not in the Bay Area.
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Aug 8, 2017 20:06
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Arsenic Lupin posted:e:f,b AGAIN. Youre welcome! 
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Aug 8, 2017 20:09
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Sure is interesting how all of the people who say "I haven't had major problems in programming" also say "I can't speak to sexism". Did any of you saying that poo poo even stop to think why that matters?
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Aug 8, 2017 20:20
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Evil Robot posted:Who are these scientists? They seem fairly supportive of James Damore. Well for starters, this is from the Wiki entry on the main guy, Lee Jussim, which he absolutely wrote himself. quote:His early work in social psychology began as a doctoral student at the University of Michigan where he collaborated with Lerita Coleman (assistant professor) on data from two lab studies that conflicted with the popularly endorsed concept of self-fulfilling prophecy and racist hiring practices of White employers.[citation needed] Their data indicated that students’ self-concept is not shaped by teacher feedback and that White employers evaluate African-American job applicants more favorably than White applicants.[citation needed] These results were unpopular in the academic sphere but he did not see this reception as reason to abandon them.[citation needed] On the contrary, it motivated him to stand by his findings as a matter of principle.[citation needed] Bolding mine. Basically his work seems to boil down to "racism doesn't exist because stereotypes are true and accurate," "you should tolerate my intolerance," and "actually it's about ethics in aware of dog fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 20:38
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aware of dog posted:Well for starters, this is from the Wiki entry on the main guy, Lee Jussim, which he absolutely wrote himself. Thank you! I quoted you in the other thread too!
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Aug 8, 2017 20:47
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fishmech posted:Sure is interesting how all of the people who say "I haven't had major problems in programming" also say "I can't speak to sexism". The original statement, by a non programmer, was that programming uniquely sucked in all ways, including but not limited to sexism. When it comes to the parts I can speak to from my own experience, I can say this is untrue.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:00
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boner confessor posted:like despite the french monarchy being abolished centuries ago there's still a louis XX head of the house of bourbon kicking around (and he's a stud too) Point being, the longevity of a royal title does not equate to the longevity of the flow of power. There is (almost always, not counting the Interregnum) a King/Queen of England/Britain; that doesn't mean there's an uninterrupted passage of power from one generation to the next. There are backskips where King A is succeeded by his fourth cousin, or King Y actually dies in combat.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:01
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yes that is how dynasties work
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Aug 8, 2017 21:07
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Arsenic Lupin posted:There are backskips where King A is succeeded by his fourth cousin, or King Y actually dies in combat. Names of things can mislead.The kind of king who could die in combat probably has more in common with the kind of capitalist who could go bankrupt than either's inheritor.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:12
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