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alex314 posted:It wouldn't help against massive Russian disinformation campaign, that made people believe they are hours from Homonazis coming from Lvov to shoot them. you think the average russian actually buys that?
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Dec 22, 2021 10:56
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Rinkles posted:you think the average russian actually buys that? No idea about Russians, but I know a few Poles that do. And we have zero reason to believe anything coming from Kremlin after ~250 years of being hosed over.. I imagine in eastern Ukraine it would be pretty successful, considering how the country is split etc..
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Dec 22, 2021 10:58
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alex314 posted:No idea about Russians, but I know a few Poles that do. And we have zero reason to believe anything coming from Kremlin after ~250 years of being hosed over.. I imagine in eastern Ukraine it would be pretty successful, considering how the country is split etc.. Everyone in post-Soviet space is well acquainted with cool government stories. Something like “homofascists from Lviv” works only with literally insane people, idiot children/conscripts, and really rural people. Half of these stories have a chance to work not because “bad West this”, but because “noble Russia that”. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Dec 22, 2021 |
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Dec 22, 2021 11:12
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Those stories are largely concocted for westerners to break their brains and make them rebel against NATO.i mean just look at CSPAM, everybody there is rabidly convinced the homonazis are real and coming to get them unless daddy Putin saves the day. Or Fox news
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Dec 22, 2021 11:33
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On russian state TV it's aimed at grandmas, grandpas and boomers who absolutely believe every word Which is why you have to take any polls from Russia with a grain of salt, if tomorrow the politics of the state change and TV is ordered to praise homonazis and love Biden you will see +30% of support for homonazis and Biden among the russian population
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Dec 22, 2021 11:54
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It's the same with TVPiS in PL. We had lovely governments before, but I don't think since communist times we had such manipulative public TV. At least back then people knew better than to believe in bullshit. I wish to live until the day we get not-poo poo public TV station here, like German DW or US NPR.
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Dec 22, 2021 12:02
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Hannibal Rex posted:2) You gotta have nukes, and never give them up, to be safe. I mean, this is already an existing truth that has hobbled disarmament for a good while, and has only been reinforced w/ modern invasions and bombings.
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Dec 22, 2021 12:05
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Non-proliferation is imperialism
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Dec 22, 2021 12:08
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alex314 posted:It's the same with TVPiS in PL. We had lovely governments before, but I don't think since communist times we had such manipulative public TV. At least back then people knew better than to believe in bullshit. I wish to live until the day we get not-poo poo public TV station here, like German DW or US NPR. Yup. I guess I'm naive because though I wasn't optimistic about what would happen to public media when they got their hands on it, I did not except the party whose founding pillar was decommunization to essentially recreate a modernized Dziennik Telewizyjny (except with a strange fondness for disco polo segments). It's embarrassing how sloppy the propaganda is.
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Dec 22, 2021 12:13
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Sp0GES53E
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Dec 22, 2021 12:15
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Biting, sharp and very accurate satire of American politics 
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Dec 22, 2021 12:24
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Everyone in post-Soviet space is well acquainted with cool government stories. Something like “homofascists from Lviv” works only with literally insane people, idiot children/conscripts, and really rural people. Half of these stories have a chance to work not because “bad West this”, but because “noble Russia that”. I think there's a component to the propaganda that will over time grind down apathetic people, especially stuff that aligns with their preconceived notions (the gays are icky) but maybe this falls under "boomer brains".
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Dec 22, 2021 12:42
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Arzachel posted:I think there's a component to the propaganda that will over time grind down apathetic people, especially stuff that aligns with their preconceived notions (the gays are icky) but maybe this falls under "boomer brains". It will have an effect over time even on not so apathetic people, just look at how Russian “liberals” treat Ukraine - it’s very difficult to permanently resist something tuned to play with your basic instincts, e.g., self-defence. What I mean to say is that all the TV Zvezda drivel how Vasya Pupkin got captured, and broke out of prison, castrating 15 Ukraine SS Feldwebels with a soldering iron along the way is not the primary driver for the rise of or enduring support of nationalist fervour in Russia in 2014, for instance. While staged video, like that child crucifixion story, works much better, the real heavy hitter is that normal information is not allowed, more or less - so you end up settling for something that is comforting to you personally, and for many that is going to be a narrative about self-defence, or a narrative about evil They, as opposed to simply celebrating fascism renaissance fair in their village. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Dec 22, 2021 |
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Dec 22, 2021 13:06
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Really unfortunate that a TV channel aimed at European Russians didn't develop and Kremlin government channels with RenTV and alien conspiracies dominates. Currenttimes.tv exists now but grandmas are too deep in the "the fascist jew coalition is out to get russian clay" rabbit hole to trust anything else
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Dec 22, 2021 13:23
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Arzachel posted:I think there's a component to the propaganda that will over time grind down apathetic people, especially stuff that aligns with their preconceived notions (the gays are icky) but maybe this falls under "boomer brains". Yeah poo poo like Q seems to prove that people will fervently believe anything.
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Dec 22, 2021 13:24
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Propaganda works in part through anchoring effects; even viewers who know that propaganda is false will "select" parts of it to believe are true as rational contrast points (as Azarchel says, stuff that supports their prior beliefs), will miss embedded or implicit falsehoods that they will onboard, or will select among multiple false interpretations. Additionally, these selected truths get mediated and, well, propagated; filtered through others socially, acquiring the appearance of normal, socially acceptable (or socially necessary) beliefs. The firehose approach Russia uses both domestically and abroad results in a sort of civically paralyzing doubt of sources and authority (and it's pretty loving crippling when you actually want to communicate honestly; from my correspondence with russian citizens on other platforms, vaccine beliefs in Russia make most other places look healthy by comparison because a lot of people don't trust anything from anywhere).
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Dec 22, 2021 |
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Dec 22, 2021 17:17
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Putin is threatening to turn everyone to radioactive ash
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Dec 23, 2021 03:33
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"President Zelensky issued a decree that only the President, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister can make statements on Ukraine's foreign policy " " Russia launched a new campaign to recruit mercenaries for the war in Donbas. From the Wagner Group. Some of them don't want to be deployed in Ukraine because they are afraid of the regular army, which inflicts heavy losses to the group "
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Dec 23, 2021 05:56
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TIL Ukraine was invented by Lenin. That explains the old Lenin museum near the college in my Zakarpattya town. Just a birth memorial for Ukraine.
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Dec 23, 2021 17:36
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The annual Putin presser is a go. https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-demand-western-security-guarantees-end-threat-ukraine-invasion/ quote:“Speaking of security guarantees … our actions will not depend upon the negotiations, they will depend on the unconditional compliance with Russian security demands,” Putin told reporters at his yearly marathon press conference, when asked about whether he could guarantee that Russia would not invade Ukraine.
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Dec 23, 2021 17:46
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"west this, west that blah blah blah" "infrastructure and human rights pls" "no" Just a chance for an old man uninterested in statesmanship to rant about his insecurities, what a loving embarrassment. I think about a man in one of these who asked him to build a road because they have no way to reach their village with their cars and Putin laughed at him and asked "why do you need a car if you have no road"
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Dec 23, 2021 18:20
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Shes Not Impressed posted:TIL Ukraine was invented by Lenin. Both Ukraine and Russia in their current shapes were products of Soviet nationalities policies and became national identities via korenizatsiya
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Dec 23, 2021 18:30
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Russia was created by Yeltsin.
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Dec 23, 2021 18:30
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My main concern is that NATO gets militarily involved with the Ukraine conflict and that causes poo poo to go south and escalate. I know the US won't react militarily but NATO?
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Dec 23, 2021 18:42
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Grouchio posted:My main concern is that NATO gets militarily involved with the Ukraine conflict and that causes poo poo to go south and escalate. I know the US won't react militarily but NATO?
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Dec 23, 2021 18:57
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Grouchio posted:My main concern is that NATO gets militarily involved with the Ukraine conflict and that causes poo poo to go south and escalate. I know the US won't react militarily but NATO? Who in NATO do you think is going to yolo against Russia without the US supporting them? The former Eastern Bloc countries don’t have anywhere near the military power, and Germany/UK/France/Canada would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into any war.
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Dec 23, 2021 18:58
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Also NATO is a defensive alliance so if say Lithuania decides to make a go at Moscow it doesn’t mean the US is forced to come with.
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Dec 23, 2021 18:59
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Who in NATO do you think is going to yolo against Russia without the US supporting them? The former Eastern Bloc countries don’t have anywhere near the military power, and Germany/UK/France/Canada would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into any war. Cugel the Clever posted:The US is the lynchpin of NATO, so there's no way it's taking military action without US confirming it. There's an infinitesimal possibility of NATO members like Poland acting unilaterally and then petitioning NATO support, but it's unlikely. A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Also NATO is a defensive alliance so if say Lithuania decides to make a go at Moscow it doesn’t mean the US is forced to come with. And given that the Russia/NATO talks are next month, we shouldn't see any drastic movements for another 4 weeks at least.
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Dec 23, 2021 19:08
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HonorableTB posted:Putin is threatening to turn everyone to radioactive ash Isn't this from a TV host? About as credible as Hu Xijin saying Australia could be bombed if they get in a fight with China. Its just bluster. Not So Fast fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Dec 23, 2021 |
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Dec 23, 2021 19:11
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Not So Fast posted:Isn't this from a TV host? About as credible as Hu Xijin saying Australia could be bombed if they get in a fight with China. Its just bluster. I didn’t find any credible citations for the phrase at the very least.
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Dec 23, 2021 19:18
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Grouchio posted:My main concern is that NATO gets militarily involved with the Ukraine conflict and that causes poo poo to go south and escalate. I know the US won't react militarily but NATO? No.
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Dec 23, 2021 19:19
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FishBulbia posted:Both Ukraine and Russia in their current shapes were products of Soviet nationalities policies and became national identities via korenizatsiya Do you mean current shape as in territorial border or national identity and culture?
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Dec 23, 2021 19:49
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Shes Not Impressed posted:Do you mean current shape as in territorial border or national identity and culture? Does it matter? It's incorrect for both.
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Dec 23, 2021 19:51
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OddObserver posted:Does it matter? It's incorrect for both. I know, but I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt  Now I'll just go read the Kobzar in the corner to make amends.
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Dec 23, 2021 19:55
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oh boy i hope this is supposed to be a joke! https://twitter.com/GirkinGirkin/status/1474080023774703618?t=VJugE4V20TShXJhe5S8zeA&s=09
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Dec 23, 2021 20:13
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OddObserver posted:Does it matter? It's incorrect for both. national identity was a thing people did not care about for most of history. It wasn't until Soviet nationalities policy took hold that most normal people thought of themselves as Russian, Nenets or whatever. And yes the current shape of all former republics except the baltics and moldova (molotov-ribbentropia) is a product of soviet nationality policy. That doesn't mean its any less valid than any other dumb reason any other nation-state is a shape. FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Dec 23, 2021 |
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Dec 23, 2021 20:18
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There were some things happening to Ukraine well after Lenin and his policies were dead and buried. Like multiple genocides (of Ukrainians, Jews and Crimean Tatars, and also of course expulsion of Poles!) and also rejoining with Western Ukraine, which was controlled by people less interested in forcing broad cultural assimilation. And Ukrainian cultural awakening happened before Soviet Union was even a thing; Alex the Second the Prototypical "Enlightened" Russian didn't try to destroy Ukrainian culture for self-amusement.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:23
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OddObserver posted:There were some things happening to Ukraine well after Lenin and his policies were dead and buried. Like multiple genocides (of Ukrainians, Jews and Crimean Tatars, and also of course expulsion of Poles!) and also rejoining with Western Ukraine, which was controlled by people less interested in forcing broad cultural assimilation. 19th century romantic nationalism is certainly real and left a lot of source material because it was an affliction of the literati. They had vastly different lives than the overwhelming majority of people. In the 1930s you had the great retreat and the return of the Russians as Martin and Bradenburger have described famously, but the fundamental use of nationalism to disarm nationalism did not change and in some ways intensified with passports and such.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:29
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FishBulbia posted:Both Ukraine and Russia in their current shapes were products of Soviet nationalities policies and became national identities via korenizatsiya Ukrainian national identity predates the Soviet union by several decades.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:55
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Ukrainian national identity predates the Soviet union by several decades. Romantic nationalism of the 1848 strain =! passport nationality. addressed this above
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Dec 23, 2021 21:09
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