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Tomn posted:Actually, side note that - have we ever found any "self-aware" archaeological artifacts? Like, something that appears to have been made or written with the explicit awareness that it might someday be studied by a historian/scholar combing over the ruins of a distant, ill-remembered past? Do inscriptions on monuments count? This kind of "self-awareness" was pretty much in-build in human society from the get-go. Practically every time an ancient priest-king inscribed a statue of himself with praise to his leadership, it was made with the expectation future generations would look at that poo poo and marvel at his vanity.
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May 5, 2015 12:56
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Ofaloaf posted:
"Pro-Byzantine" wasn't exactly the right phrasing. I didn't like how the comic called the 'Byzantines' "successors" and "descendants" of the Roman Empire and how it said that the Germanic kingdoms were formed after the "collapse" of the Roman Empire.
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May 5, 2015 15:16
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What would something more 'pro-byzantine' be? Remove kebab with some text alterations and an oversized picture of Justinian's face in mosaic?
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Libluini posted:Do inscriptions on monuments count? This kind of "self-awareness" was pretty much in-build in human society from the get-go. Practically every time an ancient priest-king inscribed a statue of himself with praise to his leadership, it was made with the expectation future generations would look at that poo poo and marvel at his vanity. A lot of that stuff has value in the context of current events, though. Hammurabi didn't inscribe his laws and paeans to his greatness so that we would know about it, but so his subjects would. A lot of times deposed leaders will write histories trying to justify their poor decision making, but that is usually for their contemporaries. Something like Procopious or Suentonis isn't so that future generations will think badly of Nero or Justinian, but so the current one will. Kind of like someone in 1000 years using Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly as a primary source for learning what life was like in the waning days of the First American Republic under the tyrant Obama.
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May 5, 2015 17:37
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 Warning: Geek talk. How about we settle on "Remnants of the Roman Empire." Much like Starwars after Coruscant fell to the rebels..
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May 5, 2015 17:38
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Dalael posted:
Imperial Remnant always had a nice ring to it. Alternatively do it like they did with abortion and call your positions "Pro-Roman" (byzantium = rome) and "Pro-Latin" (byzantium = some weird greek poo poo). Freudian fucked around with this message at 17:53 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 17:44
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There's not any compelling reason to not just call it the Roman Empire though, without qualifiers. If you're just trying to make an accessible reference to the time period you're talking about, Byzantine Period works just fine, the same way we talk about the Republican period, the Principate or the Dominate.
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May 5, 2015 18:23
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I think you could argue the Macedonian Dynasty was its own medieval thing with no more or less claim to Roman heritage as the Franks had, but through the Arab conquests at the very least it was the same Roman Empire as existed since the 300s. Classical Rome sort of didn't really exist anymore after the 200s AD
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 21:26 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 21:23
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PittTheElder posted:There's not any compelling reason to not just call it the Roman Empire though, without qualifiers. If you're just trying to make an accessible reference to the time period you're talking about, Byzantine Period works just fine, the same way we talk about the Republican period, the Principate or the Dominate. I really don't want to go against you, because you agree with my viewpoint, but that kind of classification would make the "Byzantine Period" the longest time in all of Roman history. icantfindaname posted:I think you could argue the Macedonian Dynasty was its own medieval thing with no more or less claim to Roman heritage as the Franks had, but through the Arab conquests at the very least it was the same Roman Empire as existed since the 300s. Classical Rome sort of didn't really exist anymore after the 200s AD
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May 6, 2015 01:05
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I've been challenging people for years in this thread to point to one specific moment and tell me when the Roman Empire became the Byzantine Empire, and I still want them to do it. I know history, especially recent trends in the field, shies away from that kind of thing, but for a lot of people this question is about how they feel. If you don't believe in 1453 as the end, which specific Emperor or year are you not comfortable saying "The Roman Empire" any more?
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May 6, 2015 01:08
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cheerfullydrab posted:I've been challenging people for years in this thread to point to one specific moment and tell me when the Roman Empire became the Byzantine Empire, and I still want them to do it. I know history, especially recent trends in the field, shies away from that kind of thing, but for a lot of people this question is about how they feel. If you don't believe in 1453 as the end, which specific Emperor or year are you not comfortable saying "The Roman Empire" any more? The Roman Imperial Era ended in 476 CE with the fall of Emperor Romulus Augustus, because Gibbon recognized an epic name when he saw one. 
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May 6, 2015 01:31
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cheerfullydrab posted:I really don't want to go against you, because you agree with my viewpoint, but that kind of classification would make the "Byzantine Period" the longest time in all of Roman history. Well there's no reason a Byzantine period couldn't have multiple subdivisions. And people say 'Roman Empire' all the time, when that's much less descriptive.
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May 6, 2015 01:33
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Probably under Michael VII. Since he was a loser and a whiner, and therefore not Roman.
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May 6, 2015 01:33
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Kaal posted:The Roman Imperial Era ended in 476 CE with the fall of Emperor Romulus Augustus, because Gibbon said so. I thought it ended a few years before Ceasar's death, according to Goscinny's historical documentary, The twelve Task of Asterix.
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May 6, 2015 01:35
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PittTheElder posted:Well there's no reason a Byzantine period couldn't have multiple subdivisions. And people say 'Roman Empire' all the time, when that's much less descriptive. While we know that the Roman Byzantine Era began in 476 CE because Gibbon said so, and that it ended in 1453 CE with the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans, we can't define the subdivisions of that thousand-year period because literally no one has read any books on the subject. Those books are there, but they could simply be a nice cover and 4,000 blank pages and not a single researcher would know. True story.
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May 6, 2015 01:40
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cheerfullydrab posted:I've been challenging people for years in this thread to point to one specific moment and tell me when the Roman Empire became the Byzantine Empire, and I still want them to do it. I know history, especially recent trends in the field, shies away from that kind of thing, but for a lot of people this question is about how they feel. If you don't believe in 1453 as the end, which specific Emperor or year are you not comfortable saying "The Roman Empire" any more? The Roman Empire ended in 1922 with the abdication of Mehmed VI.
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May 6, 2015 01:42
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The Roman Empire ended in 1958, with the death of Pius XII and the usurpation of the Holy See by the line of false popes.
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May 6, 2015 01:46
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The Roman Empire never ended. The last Palaiologos rules the Illuminati from his shadowy lair in the catacombs of Constantinople, and even now his elite Praetorians stand ready to subtly assert the imperial will upon the barbarians, all to bring about the glorious day when the Emperor may at last restore the true Roman homeland in the mountains of Bolivia.
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May 6, 2015 01:52
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The secret Nazi moon base is in reality the double secret Roman moon base, inhabited since 389 AD by the line of true emperors.
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May 6, 2015 01:53
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Nintendo Kid posted:The secret Nazi moon base is in reality the double secret Roman moon base, inhabited since 389 AD by the line of true emperors. Fasces to Fasces
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May 6, 2015 01:54
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Kanine posted:I don't know what other thread to ask this in, so I apologize but, is it true that Shakespeare actually invented words? Or is he just the first recorded person to write those words down? Or is there some other thing that happened. If you look at some of the words attributed to him, it's often taking preexisting words and using new forms. Coining "Assassinate" isn't that big a leap when "Assassin" is a pre-existing word. Neither is allegedly coining "eyeball" when both "eye" and "ball" were preexisting words.
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May 6, 2015 01:59
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Tomn posted:The Roman Empire never ended. The last Palaiologos rules the Illuminati from his shadowy lair in the catacombs of Constantinople, and even now his elite Praetorians stand ready to subtly assert the imperial will upon the barbarians, all to bring about the glorious day when the Emperor may at last restore the true Roman homeland in the mountains of Bolivia. 
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May 6, 2015 02:15
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sullat posted:Probably under Michael VII. Since he was a loser and a whiner, and therefore not Roman. You familiar with Didius Julianus' last words?
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May 6, 2015 02:40
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Freudian posted:The Roman Empire ended in 1958, with the death of Pius XII and the usurpation of the Holy See by the line of false popes. I know this is a joke but now I'm curious if there is some difference in popery marked by 1958.
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May 6, 2015 02:50
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Grand Fromage posted:I know this is a joke but now I'm curious if there is some difference in popery marked by 1958. pius 12's successor convened the Second Vatican Council
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May 6, 2015 02:53
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Grand Fromage posted:I know this is a joke but now I'm curious if there is some difference in popery marked by 1958. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism
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May 6, 2015 02:53
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Vatican II. Some Catholics argue that the council wasn't binding, some of those go so far to say as the post-V2 popes aren't valid for some reason or another.
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May 6, 2015 02:53
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Aha. Those newfangled reformers. 
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May 6, 2015 02:55
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New Jersey is Rome
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May 6, 2015 03:04
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Rome lives on in the blood of every Italian male! Viva Italia! Viva Neo Giorsi!
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May 6, 2015 06:55
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The Roman Empire fell in 395, after the death of Theodosius and the final division of the empire into east and west. Those are successor states both about as Roman as the HRE.
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May 6, 2015 07:03
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The Roman Empire fell when Augustus died, as there was no successor worthy to follow in his footsteps.
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May 6, 2015 07:31
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Obliterati posted:The Roman Empire fell in 395, after the death of Theodosius and the final division of the empire into east and west. Those are successor states both about as Roman as the HRE. I'd never thought about it this way and I kinda like this idea. Too bad i'm no historian.
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May 6, 2015 07:52
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The Roman Empire never existed. 
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May 6, 2015 08:08
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Grand Fromage posted:The Roman Empire never existed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLyxmD_UAK4
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May 6, 2015 08:38
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This whole thread has been a three year (!) troll
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May 6, 2015 08:42
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It's interesting to think about what defines a given society or civilisation. Language? Ethnicity? Religion? Laws? Physical infrastructure? Political/civic organisational forms? I know most would answer "all of them" to a greater or lesser extent, but the question of how many of those elements you can change before refusing to admit it's the same society is extremely subjective. You'll never reach a consensus.
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May 6, 2015 08:45
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Oberleutnant posted:It's interesting to think about what defines a given society or civilisation. Language? Ethnicity? Religion? Laws? Physical infrastructure? Political/civic organisational forms? The correct answer is "narrative".
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May 6, 2015 09:23
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Kaal posted:The Roman Imperial Era ended in 476 CE with the fall of Emperor Romulus Augustus, because Gibbon recognized an epic name when he saw one. Romulus Augustus was a German puppet who died forgotten and in exile; Constantine XI Palaiologus refused to leave the city when the Ottomans offered to spare him and went down fighting, unadorned, alongside his soldiers. Names are one thing, but I think we know who was really badass enough to be last Emperor of Rome.
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May 6, 2015 10:37
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Add shared values.
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May 6, 2015 10:43
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Tunicate posted:Was browing the openbook thread, stumbled across it. thanks friend, but it's not quite that
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May 6, 2015 11:51
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