Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

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namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/debt/heres-how-to-afford-everything-you-just-pay-big-for-it-in-the-future

quote:

Here�s how to afford everything � you just pay (big) for it in the future

ORONTO � Anna knew she wanted to lose weight. And there was a surgery that would get it done. The problem was the 49-year-old Hamilton teacher didn�t have the cash to pay for gastric lap band surgery.

Canadians find new way to binge on debt as borrowing to buy stocks hit record levels

Canada�s rock-bottom interest rates aren�t only fuelling house prices and consumer debt to record highs, they�re enticing people to leverage in financial markets � an even riskier tactic, advisers warn
The procedure at a Toronto clinic five years ago cost $18,000 but by the time she�s finished paying � she still has a few months to go � her bill will have grown to $26,000, swollen with finance charges tacked on by the company loaning her the money for the procedure.

�We were all desperate to lose the weight, so we were willing to pay the $26,000,� says Anna (not her real name), about a group of patients at the clinic who used financing. In the end, the company that performed the procedure went out of business so she has none of the included aftercare, which is adding to her costs.

Despite the issue with the clinic, she thinks it makes sense �to borrow for something like this,� but Anna warns the finance charges are something she wasn�t banking on.

Her type of debt, which rating company Equifax Canada calls an installment loan, is the fastest growing segment of the market. In the third quarter of 2014, installment loans ballooned by 7.2% from a year ago to $134 billion.

We can�t blame installment loans for our record household debt, which reached 163.6% of disposable income in the first quarter of this year, according to Statistics Canada. But the ability to finance anything and everything is adding to a total debt bill that Equifax says reached $1.53 trillion at the end of the third quarter of 2014 once you add in credit card debts, lines of credit and mortgages.

There is almost nothing you cannot finance anymore. Furniture, funerals, pet care, recreational vehicles and a laundry list of cosmetic surgery will all find a financial backer if your credit is considered good enough.

Dentists have long used financing, some of them even providing the credit themselves, for patients who don�t have insurance coverage for costly procedures that their plans might deem cosmetic. These days you can walk into most clinics and find brochures offering great rates on procedures like veneers, which can cost $40,000 to outfit your entire mouth.

�[You see financing] on any long-term procedures that are off the normal dental plan,� says Dr. George Christodoulou, general partner with Altima Dental. �You�ll see people [finance] orthodontics, crown and bridge [work] and implants. Most cosmetic stuff is not covered by insurance.�

The default rates on installment loans remain low, so banks and other financial institutions continue to fund them. Consumers love them because the loans come with record low interest rates but a payment schedule that will keep that debt on your books for years, or even decades. Everything becomes affordable on a monthly basis.

Houses used to be the only thing we would amortize over that long a period, but cars have found their way into the mix with seven-year loans now the norm.

�You don�t have to pay for anything,� says Ron Cirotto, a Burlington, Ont.-based professional engineer who runs amortization.com, which gives people information on calculating mortgage payments on houses. �Go into any store and you can usually get financing. They�re banking on you not paying, so they can charge you fees and interest. You just get hosed over time. If the market changes and interest rates go up, there are people who are going to be under water quickly with houses, cars, furniture.�

It�s not just the consumer. Even governments have gotten into the act, issuing debt that doesn�t mature for up to 50 years in some cases.

�The average maturity of Canada�s debt is not out of line with other AAA countries. It has lengthened slightly in recent years,� says Charles Seville, head of North American Sovereigns, with Fitch Ratings. �Longer average maturity shields a borrower from rising interest rates, but borrowing longer term usually carries a higher interest rate.�

Regina Malina, senior director, decision insights, Equifax Canada, says Canadian consumers are slowing their use of credit cards, realizing that carrying debt at rates as high as almost 25% doesn�t make much sense.

It�s one of the reasons consumers have turned to installment loans, which can usually be negotiated for anywhere for 200 to 300 basis points above the current prime rate of 2.85%. A loan for 4.85% to 5.85% makes a lot more sense than one for 25%.

�Installment loans have become one of the drivers of our debt,� says Ms. Malina, noting they run anywhere from $5,000 to $100,000, she says. The delinquency rate on those loans is still less than 1%.

�The rates are fairly decent, so it is a good option [for consumers],� says Ms. Malina. �When unemployment is low, interests are low and there is hope [rates] won�t go up, it gives consumers confidence. It�s obvious [stretching amortization] has made it more attractive.�

You want a new boat for $50,000? Why not? Financing for a loan, that will even cover the HST, is readily available at about 5%, meaning monthly payments of just $371. The catch? It�ll take you 20 years to pay back.

Will Walker, president of Collingwood, Ont.-based Walker Financial says boats, recreational vehicles and snowmobiles are all part of the mix.

�We are rebranding ourselves under toyloan.com,� says Mr. Walker, an obvious reflection of a growing market for loans for recreational vehicles driven by cheap money.

He says people will struggle to make payments no matter what. �People work hard and you might think the toy is the first thing to go, but they fight for their toys,� he says.

He�s funded by the banks, but says he essentially runs a loan factory with terms and conditions that might be slightly worse than bank. Rules have tightened since the financial crisis � for instance, you can�t borrow against a boat older than 10 years � but loans for 135% of the value of a boat can be found. That extra 35 percentage points could buy you some extras for the boat or insurance coverage.

�One of the important things about proper boat financing is all the loans are wide open,� says Mr. Walker, adding that means they can be paid off at any time.

�I found an old document recently from when we started our company back in 1994. Prime was 9.75% and we were writing boat loans at 14%,� says Mr. Walker. That $56,500 boat with HST that cost you $371 a month to cover would jump to $686 per month, if rates rose that high.

The difference today is everybody is �nickeled and dimed to death,� and the only way they can afford anything is to finance their purchase, says Ann Kaplan, president and chief executive of iFinance Canada, which has brands that will finance pretty much anything in small consumer lending.

Ms. Kaplan�s companies will finance up to 72 months for most of its consumer loans which start at 7.95% for unsecured loans. �We�re cheaper than a credit card but a person should go where it�s cheaper to do their financing,� she says, adding if you can get cheaper money through a line of credit it might be a better option for borrowing.

Laurie Campbell, executive director of Credit Canada, says people are borrowing to finance things that are just too expensive to pay for upfront.

�Thank God, the credit card message got through but installment loans are growing, not just because of credit card costs. It is because installment loans are being offered by banks,� says Ms. Campbell. �It�s cheap interest, long amortization and the fact we tell them not to get into credit card debt. They just found another form of debt.�

# ? Apr 6, 2015 04:40

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 18:26

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

you dumb fucks

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...rticle23799929/

# ? Apr 6, 2015 04:52

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

See, borrowing to buy stocks is inherently risky, but borrowing to buy real estate is completely safe!

# ? Apr 6, 2015 04:59

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

The real estate equivalent of diversification is buying another investment property in another suburb.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 05:03

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

Jumpingmanjim posted:

The real estate equivalent of diversification is buying another investment property in another suburb.

I literally know someone that has done exactly that with that exact rationalization. :negative:

# ? Apr 6, 2015 05:25

HookShot: Dec 26, 2005

MikeSevigny posted:

Goon meet by the island farms soft serve machine.

Best part of BC Ferries by far.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 05:50

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

tagesschau posted:

See, borrowing to buy stocks is inherently risky, but borrowing to buy real estate is completely safe!

Telling anyone that isn't a company to leverage to speculate on assets should be criminal.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 05:59

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Amos Moses posted:

Don't look now but unrest looks to be kicking up in Saudi Arabia. Look for oil to be climbing soon depending on how this escalates.

I felt it move earlier, this must be why. :getin:

# ? Apr 6, 2015 06:21

Subyng: May 4, 2013

I'm dumb. Reasons to buy/not buy?

# ? Apr 6, 2015 06:59

OhYeah: Jan 20, 2007; 1. Currently the most prevalent form of decision-making in the western world

2. While you are correct in saying that the society owns

3. You have not for a second demonstrated here why

4. I love the way that you equate "state" with "bureaucracy". Is that how you really feel about the state

quote:

�We were all desperate to lose the weight, so we were willing to pay the $26,000,� says Anna (not her real name), about a group of patients at the clinic who used financing. In the end, the company that performed the procedure went out of business so she has none of the included aftercare, which is adding to her costs.

1. Stop eating so much, you fat bastard
2. Get off your lazy rear end and move around for a bit.

There you go. I just saved some guy 26 grand.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 11:36

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

This isn't intended to start a debate on the topic, just a personal anecdote. I had a university class on the Income Tax Act and my teacher was a lawyer who had quit practicing law to become a Chartered Accountant. I would like to think that I am of at least average intelligence myself, but I failed that class because that poo poo made my brain melt, and I tried.

My teacher was morbidly obese, like 300+ pounds, occasionally she dropped things and would have to ask a student to pick it up for her because she physically couldn't do it. It was...puzzling to me that this person who was much more intelligent and accomplished than I am, who was also witty and urbane and charming outside the classroom setting, apparently can't "just eat less and exercise" as you say.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 11:47

OhYeah: Jan 20, 2007; 1. Currently the most prevalent form of decision-making in the western world

2. While you are correct in saying that the society owns

3. You have not for a second demonstrated here why

4. I love the way that you equate "state" with "bureaucracy". Is that how you really feel about the state

There are some diseases which cause hormonal imbalance which in turn can cause weight gain. Most of them are treatable. If a proper diet is not helping, she needs to go and see an endocrinologist.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 15:30

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

OhYeah posted:

There are some diseases which cause hormonal imbalance which in turn can cause weight gain. Most of them are treatable. If a proper diet is not helping, she needs to go and see an endocrinologist.

Are there the opposite as well? Like, where you can eat to bursting and never gain a pound?

# ? Apr 6, 2015 15:52

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

ColdBlooded posted:

On a scale of moderately stupid to Vancouver-levels of insanity, what's the housing market like in St-Catharines and surrounding areas? I'm looking to move there for work sometime soon.

I live in Winnipeg right now, bought a house in 2008 and just finished paying it off a few months ago. I'm thinking of selling and moving to St-Catharines and I'm trying to get an idea of what the market is like over there. I'm guessing I should be renting when I initially move out there (duh) but prices don't seem to be that ridiculous, relatively speaking.

Edit: Seems like there's lots of inventory in St-Catharines right now

It's cheap, no one really desires to move to St Catharines. It has no access or realistic possibility of a Toronto commute so it should be somewhat sheltered from the overpriced bubble in the area. For reference anything served by the GO lines is somewhat expensive, except the east end where no one wants to live.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 16:23

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Rime posted:

Are there the opposite as well? Like, where you can eat to bursting and never gain a pound?

yes, if the disease in question involves an uncontrollable urge to run ultramarathons or squat 800 lb every day

# ? Apr 6, 2015 16:33

Shifty Pony: Dec 28, 2004; Up ta somethin'

Rime posted:

Are there the opposite as well? Like, where you can eat to bursting and never gain a pound?

Some people have diseases which result in malabsorption and have to eat incredibly caloric foods constantly even when not hungry, just to maintain weight. Their body just cannot efficiently process the food into fuel.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 16:43

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economic-hit-spreads-beyond-oil-patch-bank-of-canada/article23804287/

quote:

Economic hit spreads beyond oil patch: Bank of Canada

The hit to jobs and investment from the oil price plunge is spreading beyond the oil patch, according to businesses surveyed by the Bank of Canada.

�Signs of spillovers to other sectors and regions are . . . emerging,� the bank said in its quarterly business outlook survey, released Monday.

Over the next 12 months, fewer companies expect to invest in machinery and equipment, to expand sales or to hire.

�Lower oil prices continue to dampen overall sale outlook of firms, weighing on investment and hiring intentions,� the bank said.

Hiring intentions were weaker than they�ve been since the recession in 2009, and the problem is evident in �most sectors and regions,� the bank said. Many businesses tied directly the oil industry plan to cut their work force, although overall hiring intentions remain positive across the country.

Business conditions are worst in the energy sector, but the survey found evidence of �some spillovers� to companies in the energy supply chain and through unspecified �indirect effects.�

The mood isn�t all bad. Businesses outside of the oil sector said they are starting to see the benefits of the lower Canadian dollar, but they �expect the benefits to unfold only gradually in the future.�

The same goes for planned investments in machinery and equipment, where companies said that the improving U.S. economy and the lower dollar would be good for business, but �the positive impact . . . is taking time to materialize.�

And three quarters of companies reported that sales were the same or higher in the past 12 months, compared to the year before.

The survey results back up Bank of Canada Governor Stephen Poloz�s recent contention that the negative effects of the oil price shock will be felt hard and early, while the benefits will take more time to materialize.

Last week, Mr. Poloz said the economy would be �atrocious� in the first quarter and certainly weaker than the 1.5 per cent annual growth rate forecast by the bank.

For the first time Monday the bank released the results of a question about the �intensity� of labour shortages. And a majority of firms reported that labour shortages are less intense or unchanged than they were a year ago.

The Bank of Canada, which has long reported data on labour shortages, also collects responses on the intensity of shortage, but had not previously published this information.

The bank said the information helps it �better gauge current and prospective capacity pressures and their implications for inflation.�

Among other highlights of the survey:

� Businesses expect inflation to be muted over the next 12 months.

� Some companies expect to pass on higher input costs from the weak dollar to customers.

� Nearly 90 per cent of businesses say credit conditions have eased or are unchanged in the past three months. But the change was relatively muted, even in the wake of the Bank of Canada�s surprise January rate cut.

The survey, conducted Feb. 17-March 12, is based on responses to questions from executives of 100 companies, chosen to reflect the makeup of the Canadian economy.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 17:03

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

dumb Canadians hope billions of dollars in energy sector capex cuts and thousands of layoffs will not affect the economy.

Subyng posted:

I'm dumb. Reasons to buy/not buy?

for canadian real estate?

etalian fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Apr 6, 2015

# ? Apr 6, 2015 17:32

OhYeah: Jan 20, 2007; 1. Currently the most prevalent form of decision-making in the western world

2. While you are correct in saying that the society owns

3. You have not for a second demonstrated here why

4. I love the way that you equate "state" with "bureaucracy". Is that how you really feel about the state

Rime posted:

Are there the opposite as well? Like, where you can eat to bursting and never gain a pound?

Yes, it's called being a fashion model. Seriously, my daughter eats like a normal person and her waist is 57-59 cm. There aren't many people with that body type and good metabolism and it's getting harder to maintain a good figure as the years go by because of the insane amount of sugar they pump into everything these days.

LemonDrizzle posted:

yes, if the disease in question involves an uncontrollable urge to run ultramarathons or squat 800 lb every day

Physical excercise is a good way to shape and tone your body but it does gently caress-all to lose weight. You have to adjust your diet for that.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 17:54

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Rime posted:

Are there the opposite as well? Like, where you can eat to bursting and never gain a pound?

There are tons of stomach issues which can gently caress up your digestive tracks enough to make it difficult to gain weight, most come with old-age however.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 18:45

Amos Moses: Oct 13, 2012; by Ralp

Oil picking up steam now drat.

Crude Oil (WTI) USD/bbl. 52.14 +3.00 +6.11% May 15 13:21:46
Crude Oil (Brent) USD/bbl. 58.18 +3.23 +5.88% May 15 13:22:01

Probably never see 100+ again but this is a pretty big mid day rally.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 18:59

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Amos Moses posted:

Oil picking up steam now drat.

Crude Oil (WTI) USD/bbl. 52.14 +3.00 +6.11% May 15 13:21:46
Crude Oil (Brent) USD/bbl. 58.18 +3.23 +5.88% May 15 13:22:01

Probably never see 100+ again but this is a pretty big mid day rally.

CI's probably gonna hang himself.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 19:04

shrike82: Jun 11, 2005

Amos Moses posted:

Probably never see 100+ again

lol

# ? Apr 6, 2015 19:04

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Amos Moses posted:

Oil picking up steam now drat.

Crude Oil (WTI) USD/bbl. 52.14 +3.00 +6.11% May 15 13:21:46
Crude Oil (Brent) USD/bbl. 58.18 +3.23 +5.88% May 15 13:22:01

Probably never see 100+ again but this is a pretty big mid day rally.

The end of mars surge went higher and rebounded in just 1 day so I wouldn't read too much into it yet.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 19:10

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

I'm going to need our resident Canadian Finance shill to come ITT and tell us once again how the oil downturn is just a brief blip and everything will be fine.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 19:18

Amos Moses: Oct 13, 2012; by Ralp

PT6A posted:

CI's probably gonna hang himself.

I've never seen that guy do anything but cheer for the failure of everybody. "Oil down and people losing job! Hurray!" "People who dont know any better losing their shirt in the housing game? HURRAY!"

He's like the poster child for passive aggressive vindictive behaviour. Somehow the world has wronged him and EVERYONE WHO ISN'T ME MUST FAIL.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 19:29

Lexicon: Jul 29, 2003; I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.

Amos Moses posted:

I've never seen that guy do anything but cheer for the failure of everybody. "Oil down and people losing job! Hurray!" "People who dont know any better losing their shirt in the housing game? HURRAY!"

To be totally fair to CI, it probably would do a world of good for Canadians to be presented with a slice or two of economic humble pie.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 19:32

Amos Moses: Oct 13, 2012; by Ralp

Lexicon posted:

To be totally fair to CI, it probably would do a world of good for Canadians to be presented with a slice or two of economic humble pie.

I remember someone once saying that taking pleasure and rooting for an outcome like that and holding your head so high because you're now above those people is wrong.

You didn't get taller, they just fell down or something like that.

As much as I don't agree with the lifestyle my neighbours have been living with their King Ranch F350's and living on bi-weekly payments I don't want to see nobody lose their homes. It is what it is though.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 19:37

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

I'm not apologising for irresponsible poo poo heads who live way beyond their means because #yolo. If you're literally an infant when it comes to delayed gratification then do us all a favour and go gently caress yourself.

And we know that literally most Canadians can't loving save a dime because they're infantile idiots. Crush these dumb motherfuckers so hard their grand children will be paying their debts.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 19:45

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

By the way, search this thread to see how much liability the cmhc had taken on since 2008. If you can figure out how to deleverage 1 trillion in an orderly fashion then you should take over teachers pension fund.

E: 1 trillion not 3

namaste friends fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Apr 6, 2015

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:03

Lexicon: Jul 29, 2003; I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.

Amos Moses posted:

I remember someone once saying that taking pleasure and rooting for an outcome like that and holding your head so high because you're now above those people is wrong.

You didn't get taller, they just fell down or something like that.

As much as I don't agree with the lifestyle my neighbours have been living with their King Ranch F350's and living on bi-weekly payments I don't want to see nobody lose their homes. It is what it is though.

I'm not talking about the schadenfreude of it all - I mean that it would actually be good for the future of the country.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:03

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

"I can't afford to come out for a couple drinks. I don't get paid until next week" - a thing I hear shockingly often from people with solid, well paying jobs

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:16

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Real estate agents are now dictating that the new social norm should be bullshit like 300 sqft cells and $600k dormitories. And dumb fucks are buying this poo poo because *reasons*~.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:22

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Gotta build equity. Gotta climb that ladder. You're not a person if you're renting.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:27

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

debase yourself at the altars of productivity and fashion!!!

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:29

Amos Moses: Oct 13, 2012; by Ralp

Sorry not all Canadians can be so educated to be as euphoric as you are when you flex that mighty fiscal prowess you've got going on there.

You're taking some sick pleasure in other peoples ignorance. Joe Schlub the pipefitter from newfoundland isn't trying to hurt anybody. Good on you for wishing he becomes bankrupt.

You're garbage and you have a chip on your shoulder.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:29

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

Do you want things to keep on rolling as they are? Regardless of how this ends it's going to be painful, and here's the thing: Your Joe Plumber with a mortgage putting him under-water isn't going to be feeling the worst of the pain - that's going to be the unemployed, homeless, and those living on minimum wage in industries that rely on consumer spending to keep up - people who likely don't have the faintest hope or idea of owning a house.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:32

EvilJoven: Mar 18, 2005; NOBODY,IN THE HISTORY OF EVER, HAS ASKED OR CARED WHAT CANADA THINKS. YOU ARE NOT A COUNTRY. YOUR MONEY HAS THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND ON IT. IF YOU DIG AROUND IN YOUR BACKYARD, NATIVE SKELETONS WOULD EXPLODE OUT OF YOUR LAWN LIKE THE END OF POLTERGEIST. CANADA IS SO POLITE, EH?; Fun Shoe

I'm gonna keep cheering for the implosion of the Canadian economy until the government and the populace have to admit that 'gently caress you, got mine' is no way to run a modern society and take steps to restore our damaged social services, environmental protections and all the other things a modern society should willingly support but we have abandoned because some of us were making a killing flipping houses and selling oily sludge while the rest of us suffered.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:36

Amos Moses: Oct 13, 2012; by Ralp

Oh I was yelling at that CI moron.

Things cannot continue as they are. There should be no pleasure from what is to come. That guy seems to smugpost and jerk himself off everytime some bad news about the economy comes around. As tough as the coming days are going to be taking pleasure in hardship is loving disgusting.

You have to be a literaly crazy person to get that loving giddy about failure.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:36

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 18:26

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Amos Moses posted:

Oh I was yelling at that CI moron.

Things cannot continue as they are. There should be no pleasure from what is to come. That guy seems to smugpost and jerk himself off everytime some bad news about the economy comes around. As tough as the coming days are going to be taking pleasure in hardship is loving disgusting.

You have to be a literaly crazy person to get that loving giddy about failure.

It's just his shtick. It can be a little hit and miss but he's basically the thread mascot. Also taking some unethical pleasure in idiots or outright bad people's comeuppance isn't exactly a rare personality flaw.

# ? Apr 6, 2015 20:45

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