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SUNKOS posted:Chances on the archive release he mentions being in the can and releasing this month being Machina? That's a SP archive release surely, and they officially finished it years ago so of course he would have it "in hand" but he also makes a point of separately mentioning "other stuff from way, way back that I think old school fans will enjoy" which at this point Machina definitely falls under as well, and he doesn't date that so who knows but holy poo poo I really hope that the Machina reissue is what he's hinting at releasing this month and it's not something like an acoustic show at Zuzu's or something. I get it, Stand Inside Your Love is a real good song.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:59
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I have a strong feeling the "copies in hand" rerelease is loving future embrace. I hate that album but I'd kinda love to get the isolated tracks and do some real exploratory remixing myself.
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Jul 10, 2023 22:21
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MassRafTer posted:I get it, Stand Inside Your Love is a real good song. When Billy announced the Machina reissue was completed, iirc he said there were about 80 tracks, it had been redone as the double album it was intended to be with brand new artwork etc. and imo Machina alone stands alongside SD, MCIS & Adore as a phenomenal album but finally getting proper versions of all those Machina II tracks is really exciting to me because so many of them are great. Super hot take here but if Billy hasn't messed around with the production and ruined the whole thing then it would take the top spot of SP albums for me personally, if it's done right and still has that lush wall of sound and production. At least the second album from The Smile is seemingly right around the corner if we still don't get Machina, though. Baron von Eevl posted:I have a strong feeling the "copies in hand" rerelease is loving future embrace. Well now you've gone and jinxed it. Has any artist other than Trent Reznor ever done that? I vaguely recall he released the multitracks for With Teeth/Year Zero/Ghosts stuff, I think? Wish that had caught on with other artists since it's another fun perk of the transition to digital and the idea of "Here's the album, but if you wanna make your own version of it..." is exciting. I think the last innovative thing I saw was Grimes (yeah, I know...) releasing an AI version of herself (again, I know...) for people to make tracks with and it's actually wild what some people made. Complete ethical mess for so many reasons but imagine if Jimmy was cool with an AI being trained to replicate his drumming style and technique for people to license and use? Insert other artists and use cases as you see fit for the general idea.
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Jul 10, 2023 23:30
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Baron von Eevl posted:I have a strong feeling the "copies in hand" rerelease is loving future embrace. Having easy access to Walking Shade would be nice at least - and remixing it to be less in your face would be nice.
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Jul 11, 2023 00:31
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I change my answer, I'm pretty sure it's gonna be Zeitgeist. The band's social media accounts just posted about how today's the album's 16th anniversary and invited people to post whether they'd rather get the album on digital or on vinyl (it's gonna be both I guess). Zeitgeist isn't a very good album but it's got a couple great songs let down by a bad mix (and also a lot of terrible songs with a bad mix) and just pulling it from availability entirely because people didn't love it is ridiculous but very Billy. edit: plus a bunch of merch https://store.smashingpumpkins.com/
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Jul 11, 2023 00:38
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Billy re-releasing zeitgeist before machina is pretty funny actually I'll give it to him
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Jul 11, 2023 07:40
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I remember someone on one of his Instagram Q&A sessions years ago said "You should release Zeitgeist on streaming services!" and his response was some flavour of "don't loving tell me what to do". I know that's how the "Q" was worded, but the fan was essentially saying "I love Zeitgeist and would love to have legal access to it", but Billy gonna Billy. Way to push back a fan of the part of your work that doesn't have many. Was Zeitgeist the first real example of "who mixed his vocals this way?!" or did Zwan start that? 'Untitled', aside from being a fantastic song, is how all modern pumpkins tracks should be mixed. gently caress I love that track. Rupert Buttermilk fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 11:17
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I'm getting pretty sick of Willy P pulling this poo poo  Also seconding the love for Untitled, which fits nicely on Machina and occupies that era where his vocals were at their peak. I think that's a big part of why Zeitgeist was so jarring, where aside from being so badly mixed I can't think of any other artist whose vocals changed so much in a similar period of time. I remember being excited when first listening to that album since it was much more raw and aggressive than the past couple and came out swinging. Then the vocals start 
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Jul 11, 2023 12:55
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*puts on Tarantula* "iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiIIIIIIIIIIIIII DON'T WANNA FIGHT...." 
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Jul 11, 2023 14:11
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Roy Thomas Baker mixed the Yes album "Heaven and Earth" and there are a LOT of similar mix issues on both records. While I won't pinpoint the blame on him (especially since he didn't produce all of Zeitgeist) but it certainly makes you go "Hmmmm"
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Jul 11, 2023 17:21
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Man, I forgot how good "That's the Way My Love Is"...is.
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Jul 11, 2023 17:49
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Honest but possibly hot take: I actually love the drum sound on Zeitgeist, and I think the guitar tone works too. The vocals are way too compressed and present in the mix, and don't really blend at all with the instrumentals. The biggest problem is that like 2/3 of the songs are terrible and the songs are all similar enough that it hurts the decent ones by association.
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Jul 11, 2023 18:50
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I do enjoy "United States", especially considering that Jimmy's doing one consecutive take in that.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:25
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Baron von Eevl posted:Honest but possibly hot take: I actually love the drum sound on Zeitgeist, and I think the guitar tone works too. The vocals are way too compressed and present in the mix, and don't really blend at all with the instrumentals. The biggest problem is that like 2/3 of the songs are terrible and the songs are all similar enough that it hurts the decent ones by association. I don't think this is a hot take, the start of the album with the way Doomsday Clock begins is awesome. No idea how you feel about that song but the start is just ideal and very much a "We're back" type of intro for an album imo. The drums sound fierce, the guitar has a great tone with that riff and then we get the second guitar hit too and it's like everything is firing on all cylinders. Jimmy is banging away and the guitars sound mean as hell and for me personally it just instantly conjures the heavier tracks from the second disc of MCIS but with modern production. It's the best possible way to start a SP reunion album and then Billy opens his mouth and all I can picture is MTV's Daria, it completely tanks the entire song after 25 seconds of brilliance. Then we get to track 2 and aside from that (imo goofy) brief build-up the song kicks off and we've got Jimmy going nuts while that familiar guitar squeal wails over the riff and off we go again except we have less time before Daria reappears only now the vocals are layered and brought even more forward into the mix to the point where you can just about make out that Jimmy is going utterly batshit on the track but the drums are buried so far back behind multiple Daria impersonations that it's frustrating because you know he's playing incredibly well but we don't get to make it out properly. That lead guitar that comes in later sounds perfect as well and I wish it was a proper solo but it's just this little tease of "Here's some classic SP drums & guitar that you love" before Daria returns and aside from the abysmal mix, if you pull the vocals you've got solid instrumentation that has that classic drive to it and Jimmy being relentless throughout. Can just about make out some cool guitar flourishes under the choir of Daria's here and there as well. Bleeding the Orchid would have been a really good track if it was recorded during the Machina sessions and benefited from how well he could sing 7 years earlier combined with the lush production values from that era. Here it's just kind of frustrating knowing what he's going for and kinda good but ultimately botched in execution. Choir of Daria strikes again. And so it goes on and on with great drumming from Jimmy and some really cool guitar work just buried and not given a chance to shine. Speaking of, we know Jimmy walked not long after (I just remembered when comparing an '08 performance of 'As Rome Burns' to one from 2010) and was replaced by that really talented kid and I wonder what happened to him? According to Wikipedia it looks like he just vanished in 2015.
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Jul 11, 2023 21:24
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From what I can tell Mike has had a couple bands but is just hanging out, occasionally teaching, and probably paying rent with his residuals.
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Jul 11, 2023 21:30
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It was likely the mixing on Oceania (an album I legitimately enjoy quite a bit), but the drumming, while impressive, doesn't hit like Jimmy's does. Mike Byrne did great work, though.
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Jul 11, 2023 21:50
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Mike was good but yeah, he wasn't Jimmy.
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Jul 11, 2023 21:54
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Way to push back a fan of the part of your work that doesn't have many. Was Zeitgeist the first real example of "who mixed his vocals this way?!" or did Zwan start that? Nah, the mix on Mary Star of the Sea was way better than Zeitgeist. quote:'Untitled', aside from being a fantastic song, is how all modern pumpkins tracks should be mixed. gently caress I love that track. Absofuckinglutely
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Jul 12, 2023 01:20
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MSotS has fairly present vocals, but I think just to the point of being clear without being obnoxious or overpowering the mix. That album is very "loudness war" but in a good way. Reminds me of Devo's Something For Everybody.
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Jul 12, 2023 02:58
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Zeitgeist was the start of poo poo vocals Billy. Even Future Embrace was decently done.
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Jul 12, 2023 06:39
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I never got to see them as a teen in the 90s so I went to a show on the Zeitgeist tour since it was at least Billy and Jimmy, and yeah, the songs from that album sounded worlds better live just from having a better mix and actual background vocalists instead of a million layers of Billy.
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Jul 14, 2023 04:38
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Zeitgeist should be completely remixed and remastered by someone not connected to the band who knows what the gently caress they're doing. Also Zeitgeist was the start of Billy using and abusing the everloving poo poo out of the "swallow syllable". I don't know the term, but the thing where he goes to sing something heartfelt, usually higher in vocal range, and it sounds like he swallows the first syllable as he sings it. And now it's loving EVERYWHERE.
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Jul 14, 2023 07:27
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syntaxfunction posted:Zeitgeist should be completely remixed and remastered by someone not connected to the band who knows what the gently caress they're doing. It may very well be the thing that turns me off most about post-2000 pumpkins.
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Jul 14, 2023 14:57
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syntaxfunction posted:Zeitgeist should be completely remixed and remastered by someone not connected to the band who knows what the gently caress they're doing. Super curious. Can you cite a specific example?
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Jul 14, 2023 16:10
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Played MCIS (the song) on piano at my wife's grandmother's wake this morning. Made my sister in law cry. All in all, a good performance. Despite having taken piano lessons for 7 years, it's the only song I still know how to play, start to finish.
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Jul 14, 2023 19:48
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Slow times in Billywood so I dipped into the Code Orange single featuring our own WPC. That's some rote nu-metal with a billy rear end bridge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-C5ug_-u-8
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Jul 21, 2023 15:11
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gently caress that's bad. And BC is by far the worst part.
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Jul 22, 2023 07:22
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Billy is on Conan's recent podcast. I loved SP for a long time but I'm in the same camp that a lot of people ITT are. It's insufferable. He talks about how great he is and how there are people out there trying to besmirch him still, and on and on, and I had to turn it off after about 40 minutes. Barf.
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Jul 23, 2023 16:39
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His recent interview with Zane Lowe wasn't too bad (I thought his story about going to see Team Sleep was hilarious, saying that when going backstage and meeting Chino Moreno for the first time he was asked "Recognize any of those riffs?"  ) but then he started on his whole "You're all going to miss me when I'm gone" thing and Willy my man I am missing this Machina reissue and you're still here.
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Jul 24, 2023 11:20
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Christ, as much as I love more of a good thing like everyone else, now seeing the output since Machina (Lucille Bluth voice: "I never cared for Zwan"), I really kind of wish that the Pumpkins never got back together. Or maybe they'd do one more farewell album which would, in a perfect world, most of Oceania and a handful of other tracks, and call it a day. I certainly don't wish ill on Billy, but it might've been better if he'd at least capped off the Pumpkins. But no, now Monuments to an Elegy or whatever the gently caress it's called, Shiny and Oh So Bright, Cyr (almost forgot this one!) and now ATUM are forever a part of a once great legacy. Or I could just stop listening and expecting the same calibre of music as pre-2000 era Pumpkins . 
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Jul 24, 2023 11:51
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Pre-2000 Pumpkins and post-2000 Pumpkins are two different bands. The former set the standard that the latter has been riding its own coattails on so hard that it drags them through the mud. I tried hard to like reunion Pumpkins but I'm tired of pretending to like the modern take of a band that hasn't existed for 23 years. The reunion show in 2018 was great, if not only because it primarily focused on that time.
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Jul 24, 2023 12:23
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I remember being excited about James rejoining and I'm glad for James himself but it's not like I can hear a difference. In fact, while I don't for a second think that this is related to him rejoining, stuff generally sounds worse now, both in terms of mixing and songwriting.
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Jul 24, 2023 12:51
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I think they all just got really old. Oceania is still a pretty great album but it's almost older now than the Smashing Pumpkins were when they broke up the first time.
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Jul 24, 2023 14:02
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:I remember being excited about James rejoining and I'm glad for James himself but it's not like I can hear a difference. In fact, while I don't for a second think that this is related to him rejoining, stuff generally sounds worse now, both in terms of mixing and songwriting. At least James seems to be happy. In live footage he's talking a lot to the crowd and there's plenty of band chat and they just seem to be having a chill time. It looks like he's getting on well with Billy too. To be honest I think the band (except for Billy and the lady he has singing) know that their new output sucks but are just pushing forward because, well, it's a living I think they've generally tuned-out and gone into autopilot with age, which I think also explains what's happened to Jimmy's drumming. I don't think Jimmy or James are invested or care at this point and are just like "Yeah okay Billy, whatever you say" and just go along with it. I'd do the exact same in their situation.I do feel a bit bad for Jeff though who seems like a really awesome person and so excited and knowledgeable, and could probably be doing something much better elsewhere. If he's happy though then that's what counts. My personal stance is definitely the same as others however, with the opinion that the band I like ceased to exist with that final Metro show and they're never coming back. It's why I only care about the Machina reissue so that once it's released I can stop keeping up with the band. I sometimes wonder if there's a large chunk of fans who are in the same spot.
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Jul 24, 2023 14:33
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SUNKOS posted:My personal stance is definitely the same as others however, with the opinion that the band I like ceased to exist with that final Metro show and they're never coming back. It's why I only care about the Machina reissue so that once it's released I can stop keeping up with the band. I sometimes wonder if there's a large chunk of fans who are in the same spot. Probably, and I'm sure Billy is aware of it too. Why else has he been dangling the reissue like a carrot in front of everyone's faces for so long? If he wanted it reissued it'd be fairly trivial, you know, compared to writing, recording, and producing a bunch of subpar albums (one of which being a triple album). I just don't think he actually wants to do it because he knows a bunch of people will peace out afterward and he can't handle living in his own shadow.
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Jul 24, 2023 15:06
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Does anyone else think that Billy and co could write a legit follow up to MCIS or whatever? The problems with the new stuff aren't insurmountable. Better mixing, put his voice further back, and focus on building a song around a good riff, like how it used to be. Sing about poo poo that bugs him or things he loves, rather than dance around some extremely weird poetry (just do normal weird poetry, c'mon now). If you're going for soft (which I feel like none of the new songs are, so that's another problem), then make sure you're still bringing the emotional dynamics to it. A song like Spaceboy is a great example; it never gets loud, but there's still a crescendo. Oh, and throw "Hurray!" out a loving window. I know it's 11 years old now, but Oceania has a lot of the above. A lot. More than maybe Zeitgeist does, which was 5 years earlier. Like it's crazy to me how much, amid all of the post-breakup stuff, Oceania stands above. It's not perfect, but it's leagues better than the rest of it all. If it had come out after Machina 2 and then they broke up, then it would've been a pretty fitting end, but now I feel like I'm just repeating myself and everything that we're all saying and feeling. It's just weird how the Pumpkins-esque vibe was mostly lost, found again, and now is essentially completely lost. Rupert Buttermilk fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Jul 24, 2023 |
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Jul 24, 2023 15:45
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Does anyone else think that Billy and co could write a legit follow up to MCIS or whatever? The problems with the new stuff aren't insurmountable. You would love ATUM since Billy sings about poo poo that bugs him, cancel culture!
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Jul 24, 2023 16:23
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MassRafTer posted:You would love ATUM since Billy sings about poo poo that bugs him, cancel culture! yeah I'm sorry Robert, I think Billy's off the deep end permanently it's not even a backhanded sorry, I'm older now and I know what it feels like to lose a creative force that you love
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Jul 24, 2023 16:41
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Framboise posted:If he wanted it reissued it'd be fairly trivial, you know, compared to writing, recording, and producing a bunch of subpar albums (one of which being a triple album). It is absolutely not trivial to navigate rights issues and to negotiate with a label that you're not even on anymore. Conversely, writing, self recording, and self releasing bad music is very easy, especially if you have mad resources and connections already, as well as a built in fanbase.
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Jul 24, 2023 16:41
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Unless the live versions are amazing, I assume that most people mill about and look at their phones when one of the newer tracks is played live.
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Jul 24, 2023 17:07
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