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Madkal posted:I've mentioned it before but the ANC attacks were not the only driving force of bringing down apartheid but crippling worldwide sanctions probably played a bigger part. Most of the violence in the 80s when Apartheid was declining was between the ANC and IFP with large amounts of casualties of blacks and and everyone else. While this violence was being supported by the National Party it made things a lot more unbearable for everyone and the boycotts/sanctions just made apartheid unsustainable. why on earth are you citing ISIL and LRA???? their cause is manifestly unjust while hamas and the anc is manifestly just! Like cmon, there are differences between good and bad things!
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Oct 11, 2023 05:31
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i mean probably a lot of people saw the spectacularly horrifying videos and it reminded them of isis and lacking any knowledge or context of the region beyond what they get from like the new york times you know, it's not a crazy comparison. its super wrong! but thats where the american liberal mind is, or anyway was a few days ago
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Oct 11, 2023 05:45
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Let's be clear, the Palestinians (including 1 loving million children) will not be starving to death. They'll be dying of thirst much sooner than that. 3 days is how long you can live without water, the water was cut off around 3 days ago, I wonder how much potable water remains
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Oct 11, 2023 05:45
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Viller posted:That sounds like western dumbasses trying to justify what Hamas did. In what way does it sound like that?
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Oct 11, 2023 05:49
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Pretty much reads like "If the border had been manned properly, it wouldnt have happenned. Its Israel's own fault" They wont have to worry about having to go slaughter civilians because of undermanned walls for awhile, thats for sure.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:02
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Mia Wasikowska posted:i mean probably a lot of people saw the spectacularly horrifying videos and it reminded them of isis and lacking any knowledge or context of the region beyond what they get from like the new york times you know, it's not a crazy comparison. its super wrong! but thats where the american liberal mind is, or anyway was a few days ago a NYT level knoweldge is frankly being charitable lol the vast majority of people everywhere, America or not, do not know, or much care about, the history or context of the Israeli-Palestanian conflict I had to explain to my friends really basic stuff like the what the gaza strip is, and their eyes quickly started glazing over once I started to go into details. I suspect they'll forget this whole thing happened in like a month
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Oct 11, 2023 06:03
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Majorian posted:My mistake, he spent several of his childhood years in Philly: This also removes the agency from Israel. Modern Israel is a very wealthy nation with stable government, an extremely strong conventional military that can enforce its borders and project regional power. In addition it has a good base of industry and its low in corruption scale. (Not counting Bibi) If they want, they can absolutely have a peaceful state that can keep external threats like Syria and Egypt at bay, and also not genocide Palestinians. They could integrate Palestinian territory fully and bring down the walls. They choose not to. Israel doesn’t have to pack up and move to fix these issues. They can do it right there.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:06
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Vahakyla posted:This also removes the agency from Israel.  on all counts. It is a deliberate policy decision, or rather a set of policy decisions, to maintain this state of apartheid, and it's one that the government could end if the political will existed to make it happen.Viller posted:Pretty much reads like "If the border had been manned properly, it wouldnt have happenned. Its Israel's own fault" That's not "western dumbasses trying to justify what Hamas did." Where's the justification? Where's the "western dumbasses" part? 
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Oct 11, 2023 06:11
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Typo posted:a NYT level knoweldge is frankly being charitable lol Agreed, it's been a rough week trying to explain poo poo to people who aren't terminally online, most I've talked to seem to think Hamas does all this just because they "hate the jews" it's a long walk from there back to reality.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:11
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Vahakyla posted:If they want, they can absolutely have a peaceful state that can keep external threats like Syria and Egypt at bay, and also not genocide Palestinians. They could integrate Palestinian territory fully and bring down the walls. They choose not to. They can't really integrate a permanent disenfranchised underclass which outnumbers their desired demographic. They can either 1) get rid of the Palestinian territories, 2) get rid of the Palestinian people, or 3) get rid of the concept of a Jewish state. Guess which one has any legs at all in Israeli politics.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:14
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socialsecurity posted:Agreed, it's been a rough week trying to explain poo poo to people who aren't terminally online, most I've talked to seem to think Hamas does all this just because they "hate the jews" it's a long walk from there back to reality. a very common refrain seem to be "see this is what religion does!" nevermind that religion don't have much to do with the conflict. Israel was founded by secular Jews and Atheists and the Palestanian side was secular for the vast majority of the I/P conflict, the dispute between the two is way more complex than "hurrr sky wizard makes people kill each other hurr" Typo fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 06:16
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mannerup posted:a US Senator stating that 'we're in a religious war" This loving miserable prick... a one-state solution is the most just solution, if you don't take for granted that the one state must be a Jewish-supremacist settler ethnostate.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:19
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I would hazard a guess that Hamas intended to murder civilians, to cause social unrest & insecurity in the way that the ANC did, but that they ended up far too successful; they didn't think that 1000 soldiers would hold back the IDF for three days, they underestimated just how awful the IDF are at their jobs. What on paper should have been say, 100 deaths and some seized Israelis (which would be wildly successful compared to past tunnel raids) instead became 1000 dead Israelis, including 150 IDF and Police officials, and 200 PoW's. I'd reckon that there's a reason Syria and Lebanon have scrambled to up their presence, which is that Israel failed on a level nobody could have predicted.Madkal posted:I also asked a question pages about how Hamas keeps getting compared to ANC as some kind of heroic use of violence but if all violence by resistance is heroic would you say ISIL and the LRA are just as comparable to the ANC and Hamas? Incoming emotionless rhetoric drop: This is a lesson that has largely been suppressed within western thought (and it doesn't help that it's not something that you can just argue in a minute, socially off-hand, without coming off as a monster), but if you believe that your cause is worthwhile, then yes. You can in fact justify the violence, to an extent; If the cause is greater than the violence, and if the violence is necessary to the cause. Similar to how one person screaming epithets during a rally doesn't make the rally unjust. In relative terms it's fairly modern logic to assess the casualties first, then use that to determine how just a cause is, rather than the other way around (The Ends Don't Justify The Means), and it's not a logic that our actual world leaders use. Israel murdering vast swathes of Palestinians doesn't give them pause because they see it as acceptable for their cause (retaining a rabid dog to threaten nearby ME countries), they don't work backwards from "Israel is murdering vast swathes of Palestinians, and so we should not support them". It's sociopathic, and deeply traumatizing, but it is the reality that girds successful resistance; "Political power comes from the barrel of a gun". This suppression of support for proactive resistance has incidentally correlated with the loss of efficacy of resistance in the west. When the acceptable methods are "don't buy things, walk down a road yelling" things suddenly become a lot more difficult to effect change. Of course, we largely agree that ISIL and the LRA's causes are not just, so we do not condone what they do (just as we do not condone the IDF, whos cause is to realize and defend an ethnosupremacy state). We do, and have, condoned what the ANC, Allies, John Brown, the Cubans, the Viet Cong, the IRA, the CPC, North Korea, and the Bolsheviks, did. Because their cause was greater than the violence. The IRA in particular is a good example of the cause butting up against the violence; the violence was justified when liberating the parts of Ireland that wanted to separate, and once they reached norn iron it was no longer just, and tolerance for the violence died. TLDR: The cause matters more than the methods in terms of if the cause is worth supporting, and the methods only matter when they exceed the value of the cause. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 06:19
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Typo posted:a very common refrain seem to be "see this is what religion does!" It does not help that the religious right in the US frames it as Judaism vs Islam so they can rile up their base.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:21
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Neurolimal posted:The IRA in particular is a good example of the cause butting up against the violence; the violence was justified when liberating the parts of Ireland that wanted to separate, and once they reached norn iron it was no longer just, and tolerance for the violence died. I think you'll want to review and study several aspects of The Troubles, as this is not at all accurate.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:35
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I don't know if the Israeli government has much choice here, but this is an interesting perspective: Hamas and Israel: A timely reminder Joel Eissenberg | October 10, 2023 9:41 am: Timothy Snyder is a Yale historian. I’ve reviewed his books “Bloodlands” and “Black Earth” about the holocaust here and elsewhere. Snyder isn’t Israeli and he isn’t Jewish. But I think the comments he posted today on his Substack blog “Thinking about” deserve reflection. Here are the money grafs: “In evaluating what Hamas has done, it is important to remember that the atrocious crimes are not (or are not only) ends in themselves. They are utterly horrible and deserving of every condemnation, but they are not mindless. Unlike Israelis, who are shocked and feel they must urgently act, Hamas has been working out this scenario for years. The people carrying out the bestial crimes follow a plan that anticipates an Israeli reaction. “Classically, a terrorist provokes a state in order to generate so much suffering among his own people that they will take the terrorist’s side indefinitely. “I won’t claim to know what Hamas expects from Israel, nor what Israel should do. That would be a matter for people with the languages and expertise to read and analyze the documents and the data. My point is that it is always worth asking, in such situations, whether you are following the terrorist’s script. If what you want to do is what your enemy wants you to do, someone is mistaken. It might be your enemy. But it also might be you.”
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Oct 11, 2023 06:52
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https://www.facebook.com/galit.distalatbaryan/posts/2009780689149781?hc_location=ufi https://mida.org.il/2019/05/05/...492;-&%231488;/ That said, there's a lot of very public announcements from Bibi's supporters and other right wing members in Israeli politics that amount to "We need to divide Palestinians to avoid any solution, and that means to attack the Palestinian Authority no matter how much they cooperate, and give Hamas a free hand. We need to support Hamas and view Abu Mazen as the real threat." ML translate posted:Q: And where is the Palestinian Authority in the story? This isn't some sort of distant chain of connection like from the 80s era Afghan mujahidin to the modern Taliban. Bibi was openly talking about the Palestinian Authority is the real enemy and Isreal should be actively ignoring Hamas just last year.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:54
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mannerup posted:a US Senator stating that 'we're in a religious war" Does he stand with the dozens of Americans who were in Palestine (not hostages) at the time of this happening? Just kidding, I know no, the state department won't even pretend they tried.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:56
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VideoGameVet posted:I don't know if the Israeli government has much choice here, but this is an interesting perspective: Fairly interesting; Snyder is a post-soviet sternographer, basically hangs around to stomp the USSR's legacy into the ground, not someone I'd expect to deviate from the bloodlust to go out and say "you're only radicalizing more Palestinians you stupid morons". PT6A posted:I think you'll want to review and study several aspects of The Troubles, as this is not at all accurate. Fair enough, I'm not British nor Irish. I took it as a given that the Troubles ended because the Good Friday Agreement was considered good enough & the violence afterwards was unpalatable as a result. I understand that '20-'66 isn't as easily condensed into this narrative, but I wanted an example of a resistance whos methods rapidly became unsuitable.
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Oct 11, 2023 07:03
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Kalit posted:Can Twitter/X embeds just be banned ITT? The amount of people taking non-legitimate sources as truth is ridiculous this is a v darkly funny page for this post to be at the top of
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Oct 11, 2023 08:11
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 08:57
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https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1712000421084922233 a thought: if I were Xi I would really aggravated: "wave of reconciliation" was just in August at least it isn't a no-limits friendship this time
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Oct 11, 2023 09:11
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Marenghi posted:I thought it was also a war crime to show off dead soldiers on film as you brag about killing them. Afaik prisoners of war are protected from being displayed in media in a recognisable way. Filming dead people is not a war crime.
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Oct 11, 2023 09:30
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Neurolimal posted:Fair enough, I'm not British nor Irish. I took it as a given that the Troubles ended because the Good Friday Agreement was considered good enough & the violence afterwards was unpalatable as a result. I understand that '20-'66 isn't as easily condensed into this narrative, but I wanted an example of a resistance whos methods rapidly became unsuitable. The violence was always condemned, but it took along time after the start of The Troubles for it to become really unpalatable. Irish Catholics started out peacefully requesting improved rights and protections, and drew a direct parallel between themselves and the American Civil Rights movement underway at the time, and the response was of dismissal, repression, and violence. The population at large was exhausted and demoralized by the situation long long before the GFA was signed, but, well, example - I once asked my granny, a thoroughly progressive and immensely kindhearted woman (she spent the 80s working the night shift as a nurse, taking care of terminal patients like AIDS victims, and was vicious in her condemnation of homophobia) why we couldn't simply give the Catholics what they were asking for and she explained with utter sincerity that they would immediately kick all us Prods out of our jobs. This was by some margin the least radical expectation I heard of what concessions would lead to. It took particular atrocities like the Frizzell's Fish Shop bombing and especially the Omagh Bombing, which were so awful that absolutely everyone was united in horror and condemnation, before attitudes shifted enough to get the GFA over the line. But it's important to note that the IRA got a good deal of what they wanted. Immediate Unification, no, but a formalized, legal means that provides a future path to Unification, well that's a pretty huge deal. Significant changes in law and government with the aim of protecting everyone regardless of identity, power sharing enshrined in law, the release of a great many convicted and admitted terrorists... Really, the population being tired of it all has, I would argue, been far more significant in the time since the majority of violence stopped. They were always able to find sympathetic supporters during the Troubles, but since then those numbers haven't been nearly as easy to replace, the networks have weakened, and the remaining paramilitaries have pretty much entirely turned to the criminal side of operations, where once it was ostensibly a method to maintain funding for the cause. The prospect of violence returning on a major scale is hated and feared by the general public and while that doesn't make it impossible, it makes it a lot harder to find the willing and for the willing to be armed and trained and so on.
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Oct 11, 2023 09:37
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None of the people who keep making these comparisons to the ANC and IRA cannot point to a single incident that had even one-tenth of the civilian casualties that the October 7th attack had, nor which contained anything like the sheer level wanton and gleeful cruelty against civilians with absolutely no relation to the entity they were fighting. There's a reason those resistance movements achieved some degree of success, while Hamas is about to be obliterated along with a substantial portion of the populace it claims to represent.
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Oct 11, 2023 09:45
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mannerup posted:you are going to have people like this poster just outright deny what occurred because it’s politically inconvenient for their political cause and accuse people who post evidence to the contrary of being Israeli puppets Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I don't think they're saying it because it's politically inconvenient, since whether they believe or not doesn't have any influence on the situation. It's just pattern recognition from the last few decades of middle eastern conflict reporting from western media. When one party in a conflict gets the full court press, and the narratives all line up, when there is no nuance and so forth this kind of bullshit detector schema is going to produce false positives. In the end its not a result of any actual analysis. This is doubly so when they are politics posting individuals like ourselves who might be deranged enough to turn on cable news, where the rhetoric is truly something else. So its a combination where this whiplash counterclaim is basically a form of catharsis. Personally, I'm fine with laying all sorts of claims, verified or not, on the feet of Hamas since it doesn't really affect my view of the situation but if they're your average SA political poster I can see why it might drive them nuts.
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Oct 11, 2023 09:46
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Irony Be My Shield posted:None of the people who keep making these comparisons to the ANC and IRA cannot point to a single incident that had even one-tenth of the civilian casualties that the October 7th attack had, nor which contained anything like the sheer level wanton and gleeful cruelty against civilians with absolutely no relation to the entity they were fighting. There's a reason those resistance movements achieved some degree of success, while Hamas is about to be obliterated along with a substantial portion of the populace it claims to represent. You're focused on this hobby horse, even though I've previously pointed out that there are much larger structural differences between the NI conflict and I/P. Fair enough, everyone needs to have their pet theory, but I think yours is an extremely poor one for explaining the current situation. And again "the people making these comparisons to the IRA" are often members of Sinn Féin
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Oct 11, 2023 10:08
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 10:12
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https://twitter.com/thesiriusreport/status/1711770016058605817?t=lOfiRwojrGZq7FxMrWXcIg&s=19 Were there any words on further updates from the crossing to Egypt? It's pretty drat relevant whether this is empty words or actions calling Israel's bluff
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Oct 11, 2023 11:06
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mannerup posted:agreed Just more thoughts from my previous post. Thinking on it more and to flip the politically inconvenient thing, I'd say it matters little what doofus SA poster says re: children being murdered didn't happen. Rather than such a poster attempting to politically inconvenience ppl for their cause, its flipped. They're recognizing that the murder itself is used as a tool of political convenience: to normalize the brutalization of Gazans. It doesn't quite exist in the same way on SA of course (which is a real source of annoyance to anybody trying to post normally, I'm sure), but there isn't much nuance between Gazan, Palestinian and Hamas in most places available to a westerner. Seeing them described as animals, terrorist, evil etc is rather mainstream. So naturally, when you or somebody else come forth with facts, or the most factual sources available, even if you are the most dispassionate observer merely stating X seems to have happened it is harder to peel away, or even intractable, from the expected, silent, more mainstream conclusion: X happened, therefore we have to wipe em out.
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Oct 11, 2023 11:19
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Failed Imagineer posted:You're focused on this hobby horse, even though I've previously pointed out that there are much larger structural differences between the NI conflict and I/P. https://www.irishtimes.com/world/mi...truly-horrific/ quote:In the most critical comments made by a Sinn Féin leader to date on a Palestinian organisation – and in what has been received as a change in position by the party leadership – Ms McDonald said she understood perfectly the trauma experienced by victims and relatives of the Hamas attack. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 11:19
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A summary of the baby murder issue at hand. I don't think the wider public is going to care to make a distinction between how a child dies, so this conversation seems technical more than substantial. Clicking through the quoted tweet has more pictures with body bags, etc. so slight nms warning. https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1712043708940419137 https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1712045705760543140 https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1712046965406441597 https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1712048523674353670 TL;Dr: IDF soldiers on scene gave quotes to reporters that cannot be officially verified until the dead infant bodies are processed officially. We just went through this with the rape allegations that have now been officially confirmed by the Israeli government (which one can take at face value or not, they're not providing hard proof or verification currently). It will take time for official verification or denial.
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Oct 11, 2023 11:26
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ummel posted:A summary of the baby murder issue at hand. I don't think the wider public is going to care to make a distinction between how a child dies, so this conversation seems technical more than substantial. I for one don't care to make a distinction. People went into other people's houses and massacred whole families. There is no world where such behavior is ok. The idea that killing innocent civilians is ok because it "serves the cause" utterly sickens me and should sicken anyone who isn't a sociopath. What Hamas did is vile. What Israel has done is also vile. To somebody whose interest is for innocent people to not be butchered by psychos, the distinctions as to why or how said butchery might have happened do not matter. All of this is indefensible.
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Oct 11, 2023 11:31
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 11:34
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Irony Be My Shield posted:They certainly used to make those comparisons. You previously gave me the example of Mary Lou McDonald. She also condemns prior IRA bombings of civilians, has attended memorials for murdered PSNI officers, etc. She's the leader of major political party that spans two countries. I'm not sure why you keep trying for gotcha moments by googling, when Irish people are here telling you that the Irish people, and in particular the Irish Republican movement, sees itself aligned in solidarity with the Palestinian struggle. This all feels like a huge digression so I won't pursue it any further, I'll just repeat my initial ask that you stop alluding to political contexts that you don't understand. Especially as it seems you're only interested in doing so to highlight the unique evil bloodthirstiness of the Palestinian. For my part I'll try to do the same elsewhere and not make those same blithe reductive assumptions about political structures I'm unfamiliar with . Easier said than done at times like this! ummel posted:A summary of the baby murder issue at hand. I don't think the wider public is going to care to make a distinction between how a child dies. Big [Citation Needed] It actually seems like almost everyone does care to make a distinction between "bad" child murder conducted by Hamas, and "regrettable, but proportionate and understandable" child murder conducted by Israel by levelling high-rises, blockading food and medicine, and rendering water supplies undrinkable . (Oh and just IDF soldiers sniping kids for the crime of walking near a fence as well). E: for the avoidance of doubt, and because apparently you need to caveat these statements for some reason - all child murder is bad. Failed Imagineer fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 11:40
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Some pretty large protests going on in the West Bank https://twitter.com/ME_Observer_/status/1711921861347410342 https://twitter.com/ME_Observer_/status/1711895522598928384 https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1711886357344158060 https://twitter.com/Nerdlandia0/status/1711897352812872181 https://twitter.com/MiddleEastMnt/status/1711913927905341619 ummel posted:A summary of the baby murder issue at hand. For what it's worth this person has come out in support of the massacre taking place but his source is quite literally "trust me bro" https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1711878206972661961 And maybe he's worthy of trust, but hell if I can figure that out on Twitter! A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 11:45
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 11:56
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Neurolimal posted:TLDR: The cause matters more than the methods in terms of if the cause is worth supporting, and the methods only matter when they exceed the value of the cause. That does just come down to might makes right- there's no point in ever discussing ethics or making value judgements at all, just max out whatever war crime you can do because everyone thinks their cause is maximally just. If the point of discussion of ethics is to get people doing less awful things, then this viewpoint is just a thought-ending cliche.
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Oct 11, 2023 11:57
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People are taking sides in this conflict like it's two sports teams duking it out. It's so weird to see. Side A constantly arguing and trying to downplay and justify and rationalize their sides actions while side B does the same exact thing. Hamas is a grotesque terror-organisation that should be destroyed utterly. Like, their founding charter from the 80s alone reads like a cartoon villain wrote it. Israel has also committed atrocious humanitarian crimes against the people of Palestine and now they will bomb an entire city to the ground with thousands of civilians dying as a result. [edit] The end. No moral Zzulu fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 12:04
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