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Tekopo posted:Wouldn't have C-3P0 have evaded it anyway? Unless he wasn't using C-3P0 Nope, i had Chewie instead. No corvette.
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Feb 15, 2016 14:49
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Panzeh posted:Nope, i had Chewie instead. No corvette. 
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Feb 15, 2016 14:52
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alg posted:"Forging the narrative" in Warhammer is always manchild bullshit. 40k has the worst fluff in the world. Like brave knights massacring armies of good lady warriors and bathing in their blood to ward off evil If that was intentional then I applaud you. 40K's lore is as hit or miss as any other massive fictional universe. Personally I love how over the top and thematic it is. Naturally I also love the Ork fluff.
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Feb 15, 2016 15:51
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In regards to The Inquisitor, what are your thoughts on either of these two squads? The Inquisitor (25) Push the Limit (3) Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1) TIE/v1 (1) Darth Vader (29) Veteran Instincts (1) Advanced Targeting Computer (1) Engine Upgrade (4) TIE/x1 (0) Soontir Fel (27) Push the Limit (3) Autothrusters (2) Stealth Device (3) Royal Guard TIE (0) Total: 100 View in Yet Another Squad Builder OR The Inquisitor (25) Juke (2) Autothrusters (2) TIE/v1 (1) Darth Vader (29) Veteran Instincts (1) Advanced Targeting Computer (1) Engine Upgrade (4) TIE/x1 (0) Soontir Fel (27) Push the Limit (3) Autothrusters (2) Stealth Device (3) Royal Guard TIE (0) Total: 100 View in Yet Another Squad Builder
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Feb 15, 2016 17:36
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Tacopocalypse posted:In regards to The Inquisitor, what are your thoughts on either of these two squads? Is juke really that good without comm relay?
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Feb 15, 2016 17:38
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Deviant posted:Is juke really that good without comm relay?
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Feb 15, 2016 17:39
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Best option: Vader with Adaptability and Inquisitor with AT.
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Feb 15, 2016 17:50
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Yeah, I think the Juke version of those two looks better, but not taking PtL on a ship with boost and barrel roll, with a good dial is a tough choice.
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Feb 15, 2016 18:19
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Tekopo posted:It's workable when you have a free evade from target locking and still have an action from firing PtL.
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Feb 15, 2016 18:21
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Is Inquisitor with Autothrusters and Title plus Omega Leader with Juke and Comms plus three Black Crack TIES a bad idea? It came to me in a dream.
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Feb 15, 2016 18:48
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My issue with TAP/The Inquisitor is less that he seems bad - I don't think he is - but that he doesn't really do much for you that Omega Leader doesn't do better at essentially the same point cost. The Inquisitor's range 3 snipes are probably mathematically worse than Omega Leader's Target-Locked snipes - I don't know this for certain, though. Like, the ship that TAP is replacing in VFO is arguably the best ship in that list. I think if you're going to run TAP, you have to assess what strengths he brings to the table over Omega Leader, and then plan from there. Omega Leader has access to Comm Relay, which makes Juke his de facto Elite choice; TAP can take Juke with the title to improve his action economy, but at this point you're basically just running a worse version of Omega Leader. I think you're on to something if you plan to use TAP in a manner you wouldn't use OL, though. OL's main weakness is in his poor action economy. He takes a turn or two to get set up and off the ground - it's quick but not immediate. More to the point, OL will occasionally be forced to spend his Evade token to avoid damage, especially if he's been kitted with a Stealth Device, and that limits his options on the following play. Inquisitor with PTL and the title gets three actions a turn on almost every turn. The Inquisitor is the Ken to Omega Leader's Ryu. They're different enough to be distinct on the roster, but you can see the similarities in what role they want to fill in a list. Me, I think OLeader is better than the Inquisitor, especially in a three-ace list like VFO. I don't want to write him off entirely yet, obviously, but I'm not sold on him seeing a lot of table time in top-tier lists. Maybe, though? But if you do I'd bet heavily that it's the PTL variant that shows up, instead of Juke. EDIT: Talking it over I strongly suspect you'd replace Fel in VFO with the Inquisitor before you replaced OLeader. PTL Inquisitor has neat action economy, Autothrusters, a solid dial - I'm not 100% sure he's better than Fel, but Fel is the person who's slot he's taking, I'd bet, not Omega Leader. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Feb 15, 2016 |
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Feb 15, 2016 18:58
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Assuming perfect conditions (target lock, focus, evade for omega, and focus for defender) the inquisitor is clearly better against low agility ships that are unlikely to have an evade. Against higher agility ships with tokens omega leader is about the same (if Autothrusters work against inquisitor which seems likely, then OL will have the edge against agile ships). Inquisitor has higher potential damage and a great burst damage with prockets, Omega leader has consistent low damage. Inquisitor has better action economy, less likely to blank out on attack, weaker when blocked, is a better arc dodger and harder to focus down. Green 1 hard makes him a great knife fighter. Against 2 ship builds or VSP give me OL everyday. Against Swarms give me Inquisitor. Also never take out soontir. There is no better closer.
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Feb 15, 2016 19:28
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Guts, I can't tell if you like Omega Leader or not.
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Feb 15, 2016 19:30
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hoiyes posted:Against higher agility ships with tokens omega leader is about the same Omega Leader is undoubtedly way, way better than Inquisitor against higher-agi ships with tokens. OLeader shuts off all token expenditures and can Juke a naturally-rolled evade. Three dice do not beat two dice that are immune to dice mods and cannot be tokened. If they do, I need to see some Real Maths™ to back this up. hoiyes posted:Inquisitor has higher potential damage and a great burst damage with prockets, Omega leader has consistent low damage. Inquisitor has better action economy, less likely to blank out on attack, weaker when blocked, is a better arc dodger and harder to focus down. Green 1 hard makes him a great knife fighter. Against 2 ship builds or VSP give me OL everyday. Against Swarms give me Inquisitor. Also never take out soontir. There is no better closer. If you are giving Inquisitor PTL, title, Autothrusters, and Prockets, he's now 34 points, for starters. He also has higher potential damage on the mean, but it isn't like he can mysteriously get to 4-dice primaries if he's knife fighting (which, let's be real, he really does not want to do); Omega Leader can get to three dice, except his three dice are just better. Inquisitor has better action economy with PTL, but two of those actions are going to be TL and Evade on most turns, even if you're not using Juke. The Inquisitor doesn't require two ships to destroy. Also, I think, in VFO - you need to ask yourself what Fel is bringing to your list that TAP isn't. Fel has an extra PS, and can token-tank more reliably, but I think the Inquisitor is a more-than-reasonable replacement goldfish with his ability to stay entirely removed from the fighting writ large as needed, and his increased offensive capabilities. EDIT: ^^^^ Smegmalicious posted:Guts, I can't tell if you like Omega Leader or not. I'm not sure if you're being serious, but Omega Leader is the best ship in the game in my estimation. He's cheap, he's incredibly effective, and he's a 1v1 monster. "No better closer than Soontir Fel" is just straight up ignoring that OL exists. He destroys small-ship aces and egregiously fucks with large-ship aces like Han as well. His dial is good. The only weakness OL has, to me, is poor action economy, and it's a good thing he has at least this problem or he'd be busted as hell, imo. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Feb 15, 2016 |
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Feb 15, 2016 19:44
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guts and bolts posted:I'm not sure if you're being serious, but Omega Leader is the best ship in the game in my estimation. He's cheap, he's incredibly effective, and he's a 1v1 monster. "No better closer than Soontir Fel" is just straight up ignoring that OL exists. He destroys small-ship aces and egregiously fucks with large-ship aces like Han as well. His dial is good. The only weakness OL has, to me, is poor action economy, and it's a good thing he has at least this problem or he'd be busted as hell, imo. Posts like this make me very happy for the list I run.
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Feb 15, 2016 19:55
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Like someone said up thread. In a 1v1 endgame vs Omega leader your opponent despairs that he won't modify dice again. In a 1v1 vs soontir they despair that they won't roll red dice again.
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Feb 15, 2016 19:56
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hoiyes posted:Like someone said up thread. In a 1v1 endgame vs Omega leader your opponent despairs that he won't modify dice again. In a 1v1 vs soontir they despair that they won't roll red dice again. That depends entirely on who is left on the board. For my money, I'm taking Omega Leader, basically every time. Getting maths in regarding TAP/Inquisitor's red dice, with a TL spent and a Focus at his disposal you can expect about 2.8 hits (for argument's sake, we'll call this "between two and three"). With Omega Leader, just a Focus gets him 1.5 expected hits ("between one and two"). On its face this looks like a clear advantage for TAP because it's literally almost twice as many expected hits rolled on a range 2/3 shot from both ships. The problem is that it's still only about one total die result better. Against a high-agi ship with tokens, the Inquisitor can reasonably expect his entire attack to get nullified. Against Omega Leader, you either rolled at least two natural evades, or you are just straight up taking damage this turn - between one and two at range 2/3, between two and three at range 1. The Inquisitor kills generics roughly as effectively as OLeader does, and is probably a very competitive choice against the exact opposite of what you proposed - he's good against low-agi, token-less ships, like a B-Wing or something. Strobe posted:Posts like this make me very happy for the list I run. Why? I'm also not sure why it's "posts like this." Do people generally think OLeader is not good?
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Feb 15, 2016 20:04
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guts and bolts posted:Why? I'm also not sure why it's "posts like this." Do people generally think OLeader is not good? Janson really screws OL up, he's got to re TL or evade every turn because it'll keep getting stripped.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:08
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The inquisitor is good but I'd still rather take Soontir, he does the Inquisitors job much better. Personally I don't understand the comparisons between OLeader and whisper/Soontir/Whisper, they do different jobs as guts has said before.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:08
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ro5s posted:Janson really screws OL up, he's got to re TL or evade every turn because it'll keep getting stripped. And because I run R3-A2 OL is also locked to green maneuvers. Until or unless I decide to stop. And with PS advantage, my greens can be modified all day. I love seeing OL across the table.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:11
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Your problem is that you're looking at OL in a vacuum. Consider the hypothetical: OL shoots at a tie fighter with focus evade. Boom pushes a damage through. Whereas Inquisitor shoots, 3 hits, the tie spends tokens to nullify the damage. OL wins right? However, now consider that both have a Defender wingman who manages 3 hits. Now one of these ties has all his tokens saved and one doesn't. Basically, if you've got another ship shooting at the same tokened ship OLs ability effectiveness is seriously diluted.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:13
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ro5s posted:Janson really screws OL up, he's got to re TL or evade every turn because it'll keep getting stripped. Wedge has to shoot first, though, unless you VI Wes - anyway I'm not 100% sure what Strobe's current list is? Either way, loving with TL is a good way to contend with him, as long as it isn't just a gimmick. Wes seems like a good solution, albeit in a not-great ship. Tekopo posted:The inquisitor is good but I'd still rather take Soontir, he does the Inquisitors job much better. Personally I don't understand the comparisons between OLeader and whisper/Soontir/Whisper, they do different jobs as guts has said before. I think I like Soontir Fel better than the Inquisitor, as well, which is why I'm lukewarm about the TAP in general. The Inquisitor does not do OL's job, and if you try to make him do OL's job you will wind up disappointed. EDIT: hoiyes posted:Basically, if you've got another ship shooting at the same tokened ship OLs ability effectiveness is seriously diluted. Only if the hypothetical wingmen are < PS8. In VFO, Omega Leader is shooting last, and so is the TAP. You may or may not have gotten tokens off of their prospective target, but tokens seriously impact one ship's potential damage and do literally nothing against the other's. More to the point, OL is precisely such an attractive ship choice because he's totally free to go off and focus on his own target - probably an ace - and just eat them alive. In a three-ace list, for example, OL is 26 points of "either dedicate two ships to killing me, or I will cost you much more than 26 points of your list." guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Feb 15, 2016 |
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Feb 15, 2016 20:13
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That jumpmaster that pushes locks away is gonna be loving annoying for OLeader.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:16
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I run Wes with VI (soon Adaptability +1) and R3-A2, and Wedge with Predator (and soon proton torpedo and chimps) for my offensive centerpiece. Luke with VI (Adaptabilty +1) and R2-D2 round it out. It hits like a loving truck, works even if I've got stress piled to the ceiling and a bump every maneuver, and with integrated it's tough enough to take a bit of return fire without crumpling.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:22
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PtL Inquisitor is the same cost as a stealth Delta with the x7 title. I think that is actually a swap that you can argue both ways, with your options being a tanky generic or the arc dodger that doesn't care about range. I also think that the point about defense dice is valid. OL is going to be much more effective against the high defense targets, the Inquisitor will shred the 0-1 agility HP tanks much faster.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:23
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quote:“Omega Leader” (29) Tracers to be cute. PRockets optional but recommended. You can go to Predator Vader instead if you want with minimal changes. Seems decent on its face.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:42
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Why would you put prockets on vader? At range 1 let him rip with ATC it's only a die less, with crit guaranteed, and you'd probably be without any tokens for any shot back. I prefer Vader with predator without palp around, it keeps his damage output up. Prockets is great on inquisitor because he's got the action economy to land 5 hits, it's a noticeable improvement over normal range one and it's a disincentive for opponents to close to range 1 which is the counter intuitive counter.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:56
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hoiyes posted:Why would you put prockets on vader? At range 1 let him rip with ATC it's only a die less, with crit guaranteed, and you'd probably be without any tokens for any shot back. I prefer Vader with predator without palp around, it keeps his damage output up. I could be persuaded any which way, cooked it up in like a minute and thought Tracers would be cute on TAP to immediately help Vader and OL's action economy. I still think an OL/Vader/Inquisitor core is probably playable, maybe better than VFO.
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Feb 15, 2016 21:00
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I guess the logic behind putting Engine Upgrade on Vader is so that he has an even better shot of dodging arcs?
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Feb 15, 2016 21:16
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hoiyes posted:Why would you put prockets on vader? At range 1 let him rip with ATC it's only a die less, with crit guaranteed, and you'd probably be without any tokens for any shot back. I prefer Vader with predator without palp around, it keeps his damage output up. You could just take both, you've got the points for it. Prockets seem pretty good on vader, though I haven't tried it. Expected procket damage w/ focus/TL: 0 9.5367431640625e-7 1 0.00007152557373046875 2 0.0021457672119140625 3 0.03218650817871094 4 0.24139881134033203 5 0.7241964340209961 Expected Damage: 4.6875 Expected Range 1 with focus/TL: 0 0.000244140625 1 0.010986328125 2 0.059326171875 3 0.507568359375 4 0.421875 Expected Damage: 3.33984375 I should add, it's probably more useful as a threat than to actually use. People should be scared of letting Vader get in range 1 of something, because he WILL gently caress up someone's day with prockets. Brunas fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Feb 15, 2016 |
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Feb 15, 2016 21:18
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I guess the logic behind putting Engine Upgrade on Vader is so that he has an even better shot of dodging arcs? Yeah. It's kinda like the decision to put it on Corran. Frankly I think it's dumb and barrel rolls are enough. At least corran can make use of PTL since he'll be regenerating with R2 anyway. (I use hull upgrade on mine instead)
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Feb 15, 2016 21:20
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Counterpoint: I won store champs with PTL Corran and EU. He owns bones.
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Feb 15, 2016 21:42
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Chill la Chill posted:Yeah. It's kinda like the decision to put it on Corran. Frankly I think it's dumb and barrel rolls are enough. At least corran can make use of PTL since he'll be regenerating with R2 anyway. (I use hull upgrade on mine instead) They aren't, coming from someone who's played a ton of Vader. Boost combined with barrel rolls are what makes arc dodging truly work, you can cover absurd distances in a single turn. You don't see Vader is top lists unless it has engine very often. It just doesn't work well enough. He's surprisingly fragile if he's getting shot, especially more than once a turn.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:00
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I tool around around in miniranker every now and then to find weird lists that win. Found a Soontir + 3 space cow list that had won a store champ and came 2nd in another, and now I must try it.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:46
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hoiyes posted:I tool around around in miniranker every now and then to find weird lists that win. Found a Soontir + 3 space cow list that had won a store champ and came 2nd in another, and now I must try it. Unfortunately this doesn't work at all because Youngster specifies TIEs only  Mad Cow Disease posted:"Youngster" (15)
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Feb 15, 2016 22:58
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:Unfortunately this doesn't work at all because Youngster specifies TIEs only Now this truly is a tragedy. Especially since Lambdas can take Advanced Sensors to clear away one of those Rage stress tokens just after taking it.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:40
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Chill la Chill posted:Yeah. It's kinda like the decision to put it on Corran. Frankly I think it's dumb and barrel rolls are enough. At least corran can make use of PTL since he'll be regenerating with R2 anyway. (I use hull upgrade on mine instead) I'm pretty bad but Vader with a boost + barrel as his actions lets him shift all over the place as part of his turn. I don't even know how I'd play him without engine upgrade given one of his great strengths is his super arc dodging.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:50
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OT Death Star Run Bros posted:97 points I doubt they will kill anything but they will be really obnoxious to kill; would be fun to play in a casual game. Miniwargaming list posted:99 points I'm really proud of this one; after my last trouncing out at the MWG store, I really thought hard about a list that can take it to them. Biggs will really pull his weight at Range 1-2, Nera is guaranteed to drop a hurt bomb on people, and Blount does Blount things. What do you guys think?
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Feb 16, 2016 01:26
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Accuracy Corrector is really bad on HLCs with Opportunist. You're going to roll more than two hits on any roll that's even halfway average. For the same points, Fire Control System pumps your average hits per roll up closer to 4 than 2. Luke Skywalker is a waste of points if you're already firing five dice (and he's a lot of points to waste), and you can only use Opportunist on one of the attacks. Unless your goal is to deliberately miss with the first attack, and then use Opportunist on the second using Luke as a bonus (which is... a bizarre way of doing it) it's not a great interaction. Personally, with Nera, I'd drop Luke down to Recon Specialist (four points net gain), trade Accuracy Corrector for Fire Control System (zero points net), swap Opportunist for Deadeye (three points net gain), and then put on a Proton Torpedo and Extra Munitions.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:21
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Brunas posted:I tried Rage on Keyan and it seemed gimmicky at best. Wouldn't recommend.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:23
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