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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, the stick shift isn't the issue with driving manual; the clutch is. Automatic cars don't have a clutch either. I alternate between both and have been for a few years and both cars feel just as automatic. I prefer automatic, obviously, but I wouldn't want to not be able to drive a large range of cars.
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Dec 31, 2021 11:35
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Most people could probably learn to drive stick, but there's no question that automatic is much easier. And electric cars are automatic anyway, so 
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Dec 31, 2021 12:09
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Honestly I care little as to stick vs automatic than the incredibly expensive costs to getting a drat license. I don’t mind jumping through hoops to show that I can drive despite driving for 6+ years driving already, but goddamn the prices are close to prohibitive to do so.
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Dec 31, 2021 12:42
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, the stick shift isn't the issue with driving manual; the clutch is. Automatic cars don't have a clutch either. For a while I had to drive several different vehicles for work and switching between automatic and manual was no big problem. I mostly preferred manual but they were older vehicles and I assume automatics are less crappy these days than they used to be. The worst thing was changing between manual left hand and right hand drive. You go to change gear to overtake someone and oops that's the hand brake, gear stick is on the other side.
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Dec 31, 2021 12:58
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teen witch posted:Honestly I care little as to stick vs automatic than the incredibly expensive costs to getting a drat license. I don’t mind jumping through hoops to show that I can drive despite driving for 6+ years driving already, but goddamn the prices are close to prohibitive to do so. My only hope in that regard is that I’m able to mitigate some costs with Unionen’s study stipend. Which tbh seems to be the sole reason for anyone to continue paying Unionen’s fees.
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Dec 31, 2021 13:39
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fnox posted:My only hope in that regard is that I’m able to mitigate some costs with Unionen’s study stipend. Which tbh seems to be the sole reason for anyone to continue paying Unionen’s fees. Uhhhhhhh let me know how that goes because I’m incredibly interested in that prospect. Especially if I’m paying Unionen for basically a shrug and a-kassa.
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Dec 31, 2021 13:43
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Automatics sucks much less nowadays (try driving a truck from 1964 with an automatic gearbox), but for a non electric car I prefer stick. But that is more to how I drive. The question is kinda moot, since electrics are automatics anyways without all the disadvantages of a combustion car (instant connection between gas and acceleration and so on). Trucks are only made as automatics as well, for diesel saving. I can’t really see the point of learning stick at this point unless one has a specific interest in old cars.
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Dec 31, 2021 13:56
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teen witch posted:Honestly I care little as to stick vs automatic than the incredibly expensive costs to getting a drat license. I don’t mind jumping through hoops to show that I can drive despite driving for 6+ years driving already, but goddamn the prices are close to prohibitive to do so. Yeah it sucks that not everyone can afford getting a licence, but it rules that the required education is comprehensive and therefore expensive. Being a privileged child my parents paid for my car licence when I was 18 but I got a motorcycle licence last summer and it wasn't cheap. 20k or so all told and I was fortunately able to do the majority of my practice riding with an amateur instructor who didn't get paid by the hour. Sorted the theory bit on the cheap too with library books and a phone app. If you have nobody to help you with cheap practice a licence is absolutely prohibitively expensive for lots and lots of people.
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Dec 31, 2021 14:30
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Getting my stick license at 35 was a horrible experience. I should have gone automatic. Had never sat behind a wheel before but still, 50h of lessons was pricey. Learning to drive manual in stockholm maybe a bit extra harrowing though. What I don't get is why I had such a hard time with the clutch/manual and city traffic in general. I'm arguably a smart person otherwise but I think my brain must have rejected the entire concept of manual shift as utterly useless and boring and I still find it so. After I got the license, the first time I drove an automatic I'm like - oh so driving doesnt have to suck and be a loving chore, are you kidding me? When renting cars I can barely get a hold of a manual transmission anyway so it feels like waste (besides I learned something and got some new neurons I guess)
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Dec 31, 2021 14:34
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, the stick shift isn't the issue with driving manual; the clutch is. Automatic cars don't have a clutch either. Yeah, I've got plenty of experience with manual, automatic, CVT and so on. As well as go-karts with a left foot brake, right foot gas setup, never had any issues with that. Manual just feels natural, I don't even think about it when I'm just driving. I enjoy actually using my left leg, instead of having it just sit there and do nothing. Automatics are fine, once you learn how it wants to be driven. I was the only one who could do a smooth 1-2 shift in the cold in my parents' 1988 Mercedes 190D 2.5 Turbo. EVs are the best, because of the basically direct drive. The best automatic/CVT is Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive, mostly because it drives pretty much like an electric. Cardiac posted:I can’t really see the point of learning stick at this point unless one has a specific interest in old cars. Automatics are more expensive and aren't great for small low-torque engines, though.
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Dec 31, 2021 14:39
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Getting a license was expensive back in 2000 - I started taking lessons in my hometown which is relatively easy to drive in, but since i turned 18 and left for Stockholm after i graduated gymnasiet there wasn't any good way for me to continue my driving school without having to spend significant amount of time away from my first job commuting back home. An intesivkurs up in like, Sunne was an option but prohibitively expensive and i didn't want to spend vacation time on that (plus being stuck 2 weeks up in Värmland with no car is a sentence worse than death). Learning to drive stick in Stockholm was great actually, it set me up to be able to drive stick in a major city. Starting over from scratch with a teacher i never gelled with sucked and i kinda just dropped out and never needed to drive since SL is pretty loving good all things considered. As time went on it was never attractive to take time off and get it until I was moving to the US and realized that even though i was going to live in SF, a city with good bike infra and public transit, there would be times when i couldn't get without a car. The cost of driving education in Sweden is hilarious and a huge barrier if you can't afford it, especially if you're in a situation where you can't learn with a parent/relative/friend and are forced to spend more on lessons. While I wouldn't want to overindex on "everyone gets a license" like the US (seriously, the mistakes i made in my uppkörning in NC would have had me disqualified in Sweden), there has to be a middle ground between giving a good driving education (halkbana is probably the best part of the whole system seriously) and needing to spend 30-50kkr on it. Perhaps ABF should get in on giving driving education for cheap.
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Dec 31, 2021 16:57
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And not for nothing, licenses are determined state by state in the US, and is NOT nationwide. I learned in NY, and bell, even the location you booked your test at could determine the difficulty of getting your license. Had I done so in a different state, might have been easier, might have been harder, might have had entirely different requirements.
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Dec 31, 2021 17:10
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luminalflux posted:Perhaps ABF should get in on giving driving education for cheap.
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Dec 31, 2021 17:17
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teen witch posted:And not for nothing, licenses are determined state by state in the US, and is NOT nationwide. I learned in NY, and bell, even the location you booked your test at could determine the difficulty of getting your license. Had I done so in a different state, might have been easier, might have been harder, might have had entirely different requirements. I'm pretty sure that where you get your test in Sweden matters too, maybe not to the same degree but an uppkörning in Sollefteå is going to be a loooot different than in Solna just due to the amount of traffic and other weird situations you might need to deal with in a bigger city
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Dec 31, 2021 18:06
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In Stockholm I had a colleague who after failing repeatedly tried in both Örebro and Lund before going to Tårneå for some 2 week intensive course to finally get his license. He was a fuckup… Managed to get a bunch of roaming charges on his work phone from being so close to Finland lmao I took my license in Stockholm, it was expensive but I’m fortunate in having a mom who never learnt to spend her money on anything other than me (and now her grandkids).
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Dec 31, 2021 20:19
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Invalido posted:The cartel of körskolor would be screaming bloody murder over any form of competition for students. They'd love govt subsidies though, but fuckem. Regardless there should be a way to make it less expensive without lowering the skill requirements, the halkbana rules. In the best of worlds there should be some kind of checkup of skills every decade or so to keep your licence - while I'm overall a better driver with experience than I was as a rookie I sure have gotten sloppy with certain bad habits over time and I think that's really common. Or we could just ban private cars outright, that would work too. As a second generation no license having Copenhagen hipster type, absolutely ban private cars. But it's honestly strange that no one has suggested just making the whole thing tax financed. It's basically a requirement to live in rural areas, and I'm pretty sure car enthusiasm is high among populist voters. Easy points against the urban elites, and it's money any Real Patriot would pay for their kids anyway.
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Dec 31, 2021 20:38
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BonHair posted:As a second generation no license having Copenhagen hipster type, absolutely ban private cars. Brian and Kenneth would rejoice
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Dec 31, 2021 20:53
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luminalflux posted:The cost of driving education in Sweden is hilarious and a huge barrier if you can't afford it, especially if you're in a situation where you can't learn with a parent/relative/friend and are forced to spend more on lessons. luminalflux posted:I'm pretty sure that where you get your test in Sweden matters too, maybe not to the same degree but an uppkörning in Sollefteå is going to be a loooot different than in Solna just due to the amount of traffic and other weird situations you might need to deal with in a bigger city Historically the secret answer to both of these was to get conscripted and get it for free during your service. From what I have heard it's also a lot less stressful to practice drive and have your driver's exam in common placement locations such as Boden or Skövde compared to, well, anywhere with a more sizable population.
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Dec 31, 2021 20:58
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Am I the only person who thinks the clutch is the devil's pedal? luminalflux posted:there has to be a middle ground between giving a good driving education (halkbana is probably the best part of the whole system seriously) and needing to spend 30-50kkr on it. evil_bunnY fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 21:24
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Gott nytt år på er, Danskdjävlar.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:30
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Zudgemud posted:Historically the secret answer to both of these was to get conscripted and get it for free during your service. From what I have heard it's also a lot less stressful to practice drive and have your driver's exam in common placement locations such as Boden or Skövde compared to, well, anywhere with a more sizable population. My conscription would have resulted in my stick driving license being turned into an automatic license. Although I would have had a truck license.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:44
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When I did my practice driving at a driving school almost 10 years ago I had to sign a note saying that I had been informed I would need a lot of lessons. Around that time a lot of places were accused of forcing extra lessons on people to extract more money. But in my case it was 100% justified, because of how bad I was(am) at it.
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Jan 1, 2022 03:39
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I don't remember how much I ended up paying (20ish years ago), but probably half of it was extra lessons and failed practical exams. I was and am an excellent driver, but at the time my adhd was neither diagnosed or even suspected and the whole thing was a massive struggle.
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Jan 1, 2022 09:36
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For all the complaints about how expensive drivers ed is, it's not like the driver schools are raking in the money. It's a pretty low paying job with incredibly bad hours, with everyone wanting to drive early in the morning or late in the evening. It still requires both getting a diploma and then a separate certificate, and despite all that a huge amount of the people who get the certificate leave the business within a year or two because it's not worth it. I've talked to many driving school owners and teachers through my work, and they all say that you either love the job for the social aspects of it, or you leave it within a year. Driver's ed is not that expensive once you start looking at the other expenses that goes into it and the hourly rate the teacher is getting for a pretty darn qualified job. It's more that the bar for passing is very high compared to most other areas in the world, which I can accept. I mean, a lot of people's driving skills deteriorate and get outdated badly enough anyways after a while. Very few 60-year-olds would have a chance at passing either the practical or theoretical test if you put them on the spot. We can at least make sure that most of the younger drivers are driving a little bit more safer from the start. I just checked, and yes, the US has 12.4 car deaths per 100 000 people per year, while Sweden has 2.2. Giving out licences in the corn flakes packages has some disadvantages. Norway and Sweden are the safest countries when you discount weird outliers (Hong Kong, Monaco and Micronesia). I can live with that. EDIT: loving Turkey and "Dash Cam Craziness" Russia are safer for driving than the US when you look at car deaths. God drat. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Jan 1, 2022 |
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Jan 1, 2022 09:52
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Driver lessons cost about the same per hour as hiring a plumber does. Except, the plumber can bill 8 hours a day 5 days a week and works humane hours.
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Jan 1, 2022 09:58
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Feliday Melody posted:Driver lessons cost about the same per hour as hiring a plumber does. Also said plumber is not paying the passive and active costs of running a vehicle non stop.
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Jan 1, 2022 09:59
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evil_bunnY posted:I mean, no. But also, it's not rocket science just practice. I don't even have a loving license but every car I've ever had to move a couple of meters I've managed to shift without stalling. It is practice, but you also can't compare moving a car around a parking lot a little bit to driving in traffic or w/e. But anyway...for those who prefer the clutch, they're welcome to it. I just recommend automatic to anyone who doesn't, because there's really no reason nowadays to torment yourself.
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Jan 1, 2022 11:17
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lilljonas posted:I just checked, and yes, the US has 12.4 car deaths per 100 000 people per year, while Sweden has 2.2. Giving out licences in the corn flakes packages has some disadvantages. Norway and Sweden are the safest countries when you discount weird outliers (Hong Kong, Monaco and Micronesia). I can live with that. I would argue that the discrepancy is less to do with driver skill, and more to do with the U.S. having some areas of extremely hazardous driving conditions compared to Denmark (16 lane highways, treachorous mountain passes through the Rockies, etc.), and poo poo tons more drunk driving fatalities, which is a very real problem, but separate from the average driver's skill. My gut feeling is also that the "safety" arms race that pushes Americans to buy huge SUVs and pickups results in more overall fatalities per collision (but the ones dying are the ones in the smaller car, so the unscathed SUV driver doesn't give a gently caress, even though everyone probably would have lived with minor injuries if the same crash happened with two average-sized sedans).
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Jan 1, 2022 13:01
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 I still shudder thinking of when I had to navigate American intersections.
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Jan 1, 2022 13:09
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Crespolini posted:there's really no reason nowadays to torment yourself. Speaking of which, i really wish they'd start regulating how much poo poo you need to go through the entertainment screen to adjust. IMO All climate controls, basic audio controls etc should be on dedicated physical buttons, it's insane the difference in driver attention it requires.
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Jan 1, 2022 13:13
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Inferior Third Season posted:Deaths per capita is not a useful metric. Deaths per billion km driven is better, because it accounts for driving frequency and average trip distances, which are much, much higher in the U.S. than Scandinavia. Then it is 3.9 deaths per billion km in Denmark, and 7.3 in the U.S. Inferior Third Season posted:I would argue that the discrepancy is less to do with driver skill
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Jan 1, 2022 13:15
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I remember reading how trying to keep planes in the air resulted in research showing that tactile controls that helped the pilots do stuff without looking, and build up muscle memory was a huge thing in improving survivability.
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Jan 1, 2022 13:18
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THE BAR posted:
Holy gently caress
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Jan 1, 2022 13:22
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Inferior Third Season posted:Deaths per capita is not a useful metric. Deaths per billion km driven is better, because it accounts for driving frequency and average trip distances, which are much, much higher in the U.S. than Scandinavia. Then it is 3.9 deaths per billion km in Denmark, and 7.3 in the U.S. Swedish roads are absolutely different ballgames than American ones. Even in my dinky town growing up, there are some dangerous roads that you need to respect and take into account so many more hazards than you would in average Swedish town. Driving on ice is one thing, but driving on ice on a poorly lit hill to then cut the wheel midway through the hill to turn into a driveway - a good skill to have but goddamn it’s nerve wracking. Silver lining is that my area had a weirdly high amount of roundabouts and I can handle them without a second thought. And yeah, I’ve been hit by a sedan in a sedan and by an suv in a sedan - guess which one left me with stitches? Not that I’m begging to be hit by Swedish cars but like unless if it’s some freak driver I know I won’t be too hosed up. But the thing with America is that there are spots where it’s safely lit, smartly planned, and most drivers don’t own a massive tank. There are places where defensive driving is a way of life. Insurance isn’t mandatory in some states, and it shows. Swedish roads are practically paved in gold and treated like a newborn compared to some American roads where you need to carefully swerve to avoid driving into a massive pothole and then swerve BACK to avoid oncoming traffic. But at least America doesn’t have those kids driving with souped up tractors. Jesus Christ I’m still baffled by them, amused but also utterly baffled.
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Jan 1, 2022 13:29
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teen witch posted:But at least America doesn’t have those kids driving with souped up tractors. Jesus Christ I’m still baffled by them, amused but also utterly baffled. Couple of days ago I passed an Hilux epa.
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Jan 1, 2022 14:06
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Inferior Third Season posted:Deaths per capita is not a useful metric. Deaths per billion km driven is better, because it accounts for driving frequency and average trip distances, which are much, much higher in the U.S. than Scandinavia. Then it is 3.9 deaths per billion km in Denmark, and 7.3 in the U.S. I agree with the death/miles being the more useful metric, but I think you’re dead wrong on this - unless you count mega bad drivers as a hazardous driving condition. I did a 8.000 km road trip through the states visiting family recently and we saw insanely bad, super dangerous drivers, all the time. The first couple of days I counted the number of times we had been overtaken on the inside without any good reason (like the flow of traffic, or exit ramp or something) and I stopped counting because it happened so frequently. This is with us trying really hard to always be in the rightmost lane. On at least two occasions people went onto the shoulder to pass on the inside, rather than having to wait for the cars passing on the outside (not just us either, several cars in front of us). This has literally never happened to me in Denmark. I think at least once a day, some insane person would speed across two-three lanes, and careen in right in front of us, so we basically had to stand on the break pedal, because they did not want to miss an exit ramp or a split in the freeway. This is going 120 km/h mostly. That’s just a few examples. We saw plenty of insane road rage, like people driving up next to other people and screaming out their window at 100 km/h for unknown reasons. People in supercars weaving in and out of highway traffic at insane speeds. People were talking on their phone all the time. We tried to follow the speed limits in the beginning, but more often than not it would lead to people doing inch close tailgating, blinking, honking and what not. I was conceived we had read the speed limit wrong, or our trunk was open or something at first. I was really shocked at how bad, unsafe and dangerous the drivers were in the US and completely unsurprised when I read there are twice as many deaths (and I think triple as many serious injuries, if not more). It was really the only downside to an otherwise great trip, but big enough that I probably wouldn’t do it again tbh.
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Jan 1, 2022 14:10
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Revelation 2-13 posted:I agree with the death/miles being the more useful metric, but I think you’re dead wrong on this - unless you count mega bad drivers as a hazardous driving condition. I did a 8.000 km road trip through the states visiting family recently and we saw insanely bad, super dangerous drivers, all the time. But for me, it was Tuesday
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Jan 1, 2022 14:14
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Yeah I remember thinking US driving was loving wild. You do get your fair share of people with no regard to others safety in Denmark too, but this was just constantly. But then I went to the Philippines and that made even American drivers seem tame.
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Jan 1, 2022 14:19
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As someone with a dirty US drivers license, what struck me most the few times I’ve driven in Sweden are how claustrophobically narrow the roads were and that everybody used their turn signals (what a concept). I’ve mostly driven in very, very southern Sweden though, a lot of the roads don’t even have center lines. The little driving I did in Stockholm I found to be very stressful (but I don’t like driving in cities anyway). Why is there always a billion road closures!!  Definitely felt a bit of uncertainty driving over there since I literally don’t know all the weird Swedish rules. I drove in Denmark once and one of my main memories was an uncomfortably long stretch where I had absolutely no idea what the speed limit was because there weren’t any signs. I did not personally drive in Norway, but some of those roads along the fjords were harrowing. Nothing like meeting a truck head-on on a blind one-lane curve with a massive drop on one side of the road and a mountain on the other.
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Jan 1, 2022 15:38
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david_a posted:As someone with a dirty US drivers license, what struck me most the few times I’ve driven in Sweden are how claustrophobically narrow the roads were and that everybody used their turn signals (what a concept). I’ve mostly driven in very, very southern Sweden though, a lot of the roads don’t even have center lines. The little driving I did in Stockholm I found to be very stressful (but I don’t like driving in cities anyway). Why is there always a billion road closures!! 80 km/h
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Jan 1, 2022 16:27
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