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Konsek posted:I played Civ 2 and Alpha Centauri like crazy when they came out but only briefly tried the games since then. I don't think I've ever even played V or VI for myself. A friend of mine who doesn't really play games anymore told me he has been playing Civ 2 again from nostalgia and is enjoying it. It got me thinking about trying whatever the latest version is but reading online there seems to be a lot of grumbling about Civ 6. Civ4 is the peak of the "Civ2-like" games of the series. CivV and Civ6 are different games that feel a lot more like a board game rather then a Civ game. I'd say if you like Civ2, play Civ4. If you want something new and civ-like, and you mostly want to play multiplayer, check-out civ6.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:29
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Trivia posted:I don't know if you guys ever played the Civ facebook game from a few years ago (it was poo poo), but it had an interesting mechanic in that there was a gimmick each era. For example, in the medieval era, science was cut by 75% or some such. That really slowed things down. The devs could try something similar, or institute some sort of mechanic for declining marginal returns. This would be a cool idea, basically make each "age" have a gimmick, and reward the first player that leaves the age. But when the first player leaves it, the malus of the age ends for everyone and then the next age malus kicks in.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:37
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I do wish there were a few more contextual events too. I think it would be interesting if new resources were revealed when [a low number of players] discovered them; you have heard it's useful and can stake your claim to them, but can't work them until you have that tech. "Spirit of the Age" events could be fun things that change from game to game. I also would appreciate "first to" bonuses coming back (e.g. first to circumnavigate the globe, first to map most of each continent). Many of all of these would need to be nuanced for different map types.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:23
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John F Bennett posted:Copied from Civfanatics : That is interesting. Missionaries getting Martyr means... Well, they can't offensively fight, so not much I guess actually. People will just stomp your missionaries instead. I was going to say it's a lot more spammable than Martyr Apostles, but with how theological combat currently works, well, yeah. The other stuff is neat though. So they're good at getting big and doing religion. And they have elephants.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:40
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There's a popular Civ 4 mod that does passive dispersion of tech... like once X% of the civs know a tech everyone else researches it Y% faster and it scales up the more civs that learn it. It's intended to prevent the failure state of falling behind by an era and a half in tech and being a dead civ walking, just waiting for the stronger civs to divvy up your cities.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:47
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known tech bonus is in the base game
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Oct 16, 2017 20:52
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Prav posted:4 has plenty of leaders who will wardec you just because they had a big army that was getting bored. i actually like this, it means you have to maintain an army even though you're ahead. i tell you what i've had a game of civ 4 completely ruined because a stack of 50 medieval units defeated my nominal stack of 15 industrial ones. in civ 5 or 6? never happen, i'll kill a thousand thousand AI units with two ranged guys and a melee to zone of control/tank. Fur20 fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 21:03
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The White Dragon posted:i actually like this, it means you have to maintain an army even though you're ahead. i tell you what i've had a game of civ 4 completely ruined because a stack of 50 medieval units defeated my nominal stack of 15 industrial ones. This is maybe one of my biggest problems with V and VI. It's just hard to really care about warmonger penalties or whatever because, well... Who cares if the AI rolls around with a few units that you can just pick apart with a few ranged units? They're just not a threat whatsoever, and it takes so much out of the game. Civ IV didn't have the greatest AI in the world but at least it had some teeth on it. If you didn't pay attention it could run you over pretty badly. This made playing the diplomacy game a lot more rewarding. In V and VI it's like... I don't care about that aspect of the game. Both because it's annoying to actually try and play it (UI stupidity) and again, because who cares? Hell, even if you *do* care about warmonger penalties you can just sit around when the AI declares war, murder a bunch of their units and then reap huge rewards in the peace deal.
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Oct 16, 2017 21:32
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This is a good opportunity for your biweekly reminder that there should not be ranged units in Civ
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Oct 16, 2017 22:00
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Eric the Mauve posted:This is a good opportunity for your biweekly reminder that there should not be ranged units in Civ They'd be fine if they actually bothered to balance them. As it is, they always make them hit too hard and resist melee attack too well. My favoured approach would be to have them be part of your melee units, so you could add field guns to your infantry, or archers to your spearmen. They'd damage enemy units prior to combat. You could also have siege units that would do the same for cities.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:08
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Eric the Mauve posted:This is a good opportunity for your biweekly reminder that there should not be ranged units in Civ ranged arty was one of things on the extremely short list of "good things civ 3 did" as generic units yeah it sucks
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Oct 16, 2017 22:08
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Ham Sandwiches posted:There's always someone painfully explaining what the game is trying to model while someone else is explaining why it's a garbage implementation / that's not working for them. It's not painful, he makes a lot of sense. If you want a smooth ride and a free win after you are first just say so. Kalko posted:Yeah, I take advantage of that when I can. I like that you can still steamroll your closest neighbour at the start of the game without any penalties too. I agree with everything you just said and I also wipe as much guys as I can before entering The World Stage. turboraton fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 22:28
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Gort posted:My favoured approach would be to have them be part of your melee units, so you could add field guns to your infantry, or archers to your spearmen. They'd damage enemy units prior to combat. You could also have siege units that would do the same for cities. imo civilian units that do nominal damage when attacked. they're screwed if they get overrun but they can still fight a little. it would make cavalry particularly useful against them but then they'd have to rebalance melee units, which tend to be far weaker than cavalry, except spears, which are only as strong as mounted units because of their bonus vs cav... it's difficult.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:37
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Khmer first look is out, and it's looking pretty decent as a civ. They're going to livestream tomorrow which is an odd choice, shaking it up instead of doing the next first look first. I guess they're shooting for a Thursday release? Mostly interested in patch notes.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:33
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Has it ever been discussed that perhaps the reason for the change in stack to army per tile from Civ 4 to 5 was because of the animation of the attacks? It would have been pretty much impossible to animate a stack of doom encounter without going to a separate screen. Separate screens seem to be something that the design team are attempting to eliminate (leader video cutaways not withstanding).
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Oct 17, 2017 00:24
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No, the switch to 1UPT was expressly, per the design team, because stacks of doom mechanically suck and they need to go away.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:53
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Range units are fine. They just need to get eviscerated by melee units in combat.
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Oct 17, 2017 03:27
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I think 1upt is pretty great all around, but still feel the movement points and ranges are a bit too limited to make it work. They should be scaled a little differently- even 3 movement points per turn as baseline would be a huge improvement over the current system. I've advocated it before, but I really think the team could take some design cues from a game like Advance Wars- with an emphasis on positioning and maneuverability. Forcing ranged units to deal with firing shadows would also prevent them from uniformly dominating- since melee units could get up in their face. I worry that the scaling of the cities/game maps may make it difficult to find a sweet spot between game mechanics vs. immersion, but something in between the mechanics we have now and the mechanics of advance wars would be an improvement I feel.
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Oct 17, 2017 06:13
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New music hype! Can't wait to hear it.
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Oct 17, 2017 06:43
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turboraton posted:It's not painful, he makes a lot of sense. If you want a smooth ride and a free win after you are first just say so. It's not about a free ride. It's about wasting time getting attacked by people who cannot possibly beat you.
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Oct 17, 2017 07:19
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*bursts into thread* Did someone say Advance Wars?  . Sorry, sorry.Advance Wars definitely already feels like it was a big influence on Civ 5, between the one unit per tile and the unique abilities for civs. There's definitely an argument that you could take another leaf from its book and increase the granularity of movement again, though. Base move speed in Civ 6 did get increased to three, although the new rule about always needing enough move points to enter a tile quashed that (although hey, that's an AW rule). It might be notable that AW is a four-direction square grid game (a "taxicab" or "Manhatten" metric), Civ 5 and 6 are six-diectional hex grid and Civ 4 and earlier are eight-directional (a "chessboard" or "Chebyshev" metric). AW units need those extra move points so they can get around in a timely fashion with the limited number of directions they can move. It's probably why the base move speed went from 1 to 2 going from Civ 4 to 5. It also makes chokepoints extremely strong. "Holding off an AI horde with a few ranged units and something to do the tanking" sounds like half of a typical AW campaign. So if the Civ 5 devs copied AW, they shold probably have known what was coming. Intelligent Systems (the AW devs) gave the system a few tweaks in the later games, Dual Strike in particular tried to tame the mighty artillery with the chokepoint-busting power of the titular Dual Strikes and some tweaks to how the CO meter charged. I remember anti-tanks being this backbreaking opponent in Days of Ruin simply because they didn't have a range shadow, had decent defence and could return fire in melee. So a bit like the Civ problem, I guess. Imagine facing down a machine gun in Civ 5 that's been upgraded from an English Longbowman.
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Oct 17, 2017 07:49
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Paul.Power posted:Imagine facing down a machine gun in Civ 5 that's been upgraded from an English Longbowman. *tactical nuke* i play with these a lot because i take care of my stone age rush archers
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Oct 17, 2017 07:52
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Paul.Power posted:*bursts into thread* Did someone say Advance Wars? This post made me nostalgic for Advance Wars and sad that we'll never get another one probably.
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Oct 17, 2017 08:11
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JVNO posted:I think 1upt is pretty great all around, but still feel the movement points and ranges are a bit too limited to make it work. They should be scaled a little differently- even 3 movement points per turn as baseline would be a huge improvement over the current system. Civ maps are nowhere near big enough to make 1UPT work and adding even more movement speed would make the problem worse. Civ is at its core a strategy game but it's not a war strategy game. 5 and 6 tried to move away from this but there's no way to put enough tiles on the map to make a war strategy game work. And it would be a bad move for Civ 7 to try to be an Advance Wars sequel.
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Oct 17, 2017 12:06
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I agree with Eric: 1UPT works great for Advance Wars and games like that because they are something else: tactical war games. Civ is a grand strategy game, its a completely different kind of game, with a whole other scale and focus. You either add a tactical battle screen like in Master of Magic, AoW, Endless Legend (but please no); or leave the tactical aspect out (preferable, imo). Civ tried to find a compromise between the 2 and it works bad.
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Oct 17, 2017 12:15
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Hot take: I think fighting off the AI with just a few units in civ 5/6 is fun.
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Oct 17, 2017 12:21
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Alpha Centauri is by far the best civ game especially given how far ahead of its time it was. Terraforming lends level of player agency on the game world that no civ game allows. Want to build a surprise land bridge to your neighbor, go for it! Want to terraform down and flood a city without a pressure dome, go for it! Melt the polar ice caps, raise sea levels, nuke enormous continent sized craters into the earth, all easily done. Custom units were a blast making orbital inserted hover tanks just felt right. The in world fluff is excellent sci fi, the factions feel unique and if you're not playing at super high levels are fun all around.
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Oct 17, 2017 12:50
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deathbysnusnu posted:Alpha Centauri is by far the best civ game especially given how far ahead of its time it was. Terraforming lends level of player agency on the game world that no civ game allows. Want to build a surprise land bridge to your neighbor, go for it! Want to terraform down and flood a city without a pressure dome, go for it! Melt the polar ice caps, raise sea levels, nuke enormous continent sized craters into the earth, all easily done. Custom units were a blast making orbital inserted hover tanks just felt right. The in world fluff is excellent sci fi, the factions feel unique and if you're not playing at super high levels are fun all around. Counterpoint: Alpha Centauri had a couple bright spots (the voice parts, the terraforming, the "plot"), but it was not well balanced, and making boring, slightly-improved units constantly with that interface was a sloggy slogslogslog.
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Oct 17, 2017 14:07
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What is the point of razing a city other than being moustache twirlingly evil?
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Oct 17, 2017 14:09
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It's either where you don't want to keep the city, basically if it's in a really bad location or if you CAN'T keep the city, because it's surrounded by enemies and you can't exactly hold it (but you wanted it gone for other reasons, like it's a unit pump/research center etc), or if holding it is somehow a detriment to your empire.
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Oct 17, 2017 14:21
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Cartoon posted:Has it ever been discussed that perhaps the reason for the change in stack to army per tile from Civ 4 to 5 was because of the animation of the attacks? It would have been pretty much impossible to animate a stack of doom encounter without going to a separate screen. Separate screens seem to be something that the design team are attempting to eliminate (leader video cutaways not withstanding). What? The animations in Civ 4 are basically the same style as 5 and 6.
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Oct 17, 2017 14:23
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Vargatron posted:What is the point of razing a city other than being moustache twirlingly evil? iunno but half the time when a civ buys a city off me for like 3 luxury resources, 200 gold, and 10 gold per turn, they'll immediately set it on fire id love to know the ai logic there
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Oct 17, 2017 14:47
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Indonesia's up. Gitarja leads. Ability - Great Nusantara - Coastal tiles provide minor adjacency bonuses for Holy Sites, Campuses, Industrial Zones, and Theatre Squares. Entertainment Complexes give an additional Amenity if they're adjacent to a non-lake coastal tile. Leader Ability - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds - naval units can be purchased at a discount using faith. Religious units take no movement points to embark or disembark. Coastal cities get bonus faith. Unique Unit - Jong - replaces Frigate, faster and gives its speed to formations. Extra combat power in a formation. Unique Improvment - Kampung - Built in coastal tiles adjacent to water resources. Provides Housing, Production, and Food for each adjacent Fishing Boat.
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Oct 17, 2017 15:14
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Am I the only one who couldn't care less about the new civs and just wants the patch notes?
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Oct 17, 2017 16:48
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No
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Oct 17, 2017 16:50
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Vargatron posted:What is the point of razing a city other than being moustache twirlingly evil? Less faff? I burn basically every city if I'm going for a conquest victory. In theory I guess it means you also don't need to defend it but that'd involve the AI being able to take it over in the first place.
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Oct 17, 2017 16:59
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Cool
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Oct 17, 2017 16:59
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To expand, I'm not paying 5€ per civ if the rest of the game is still the same. Now if you would excuse me, I have to get back to my Civ 4 TSL game. Egypt just invaded England.
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Oct 17, 2017 17:04
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Mymla posted:Hot take: I think fighting off the AI with just a few units in civ 5/6 is fun. It's even more fun to try to out-manuever an opponent that actually has a chance to win.
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Oct 17, 2017 17:34
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man they sure like making one-trick pony civs
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Oct 17, 2017 17:39
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