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Assault marines have always been bad 
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Oct 30, 2017 04:41
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chutche2 posted:Assault marines get two chainsword attacks. Banshees get 2 power sword attacks, can threaten nearly twice as far with charges, can't be overwatched, enemies are at -1 to hit them in melee. Assault marines can get close to the threat range of banshees if you give them jump packs to make them 3 points more expensive, but are still pretty bad. Yeah, but I think the increased strength and toughness on Marines counts for more than you seem to think it does. Anyway, I am glad at least one of these historicaly bad units seems playable. At Strength 3 Howling Banshees are not super likely to wipe units, and they will certainly die when the does step back and let their other pals shoot them to pieces.
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Oct 30, 2017 04:43
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Strobe posted:T3 isn't as big of a handicap as it was in 7th but it's still pretty significant against most S4 guns and S4 guns are loving everywhere. What does this even mean? This is just me complaining about how awful assault marines are. It was just surprising to me to see howling banshees get dropped to the same price as this piece of poo poo unit. The pistol + sword guardians as an example are cheaper than the catapult guardians, but assault marines have to be the same price as bolter marines. I love the idea of assault marines and it feels lovely every time another unit objectively outclasses them without costing more. Lord_Hambrose posted:At Strength 3 Howling Banshees are not super likely to wipe units, and they will certainly die when the does step back and let their other pals shoot them to pieces. That part is true, banshees suffer more from the bullshit fall back mechanic than assault marines but it's not like assault marines survived that either, banshees just die slightly faster. At strength 4 ap0 assault marines are a hell of a lot less likely to wipe anything though. I don't even know if banshees are good or not. I just don't like the point system feeling so arbitrary when two units with the same cost and same specialty can have wildly different effectiveness. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 04:43
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Comparing Assault Marines to literally anything in the game isn't fair because Assault Marines are utterly useless for close combat(tolerable if you give them special weapons) and have been for as long as I've been playing.
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Oct 30, 2017 04:44
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Strobe posted:But at this point you should probably stop freaking out about every other thing you personally think it's optimally balanced, because jesus it's getting old. A full 5% of this thread is Cupola posts. Let that sink in.
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Oct 30, 2017 04:47
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I feel like toughness and strength are a bit less useful than BS and save because they don't scale linearly anymore. Adding 1 to your BS means you get an extra 1/6th chance of hitting. Adding 1 to your save means you get an extra 1/6th chance of not dying. Meanwhile, on a T8 vehicle, everywhere from S5 to S7 has the same chance of hitting, so that's a whole range of 3 numbers that are identical for the purposes of a single target. Naturally, that's more an issue for vehicle targeting than anything. Strengths of 2, 3, and 4 have vastly different interactions with MEQ toughness.
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Oct 30, 2017 04:51
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Comparing Assault Marines to Howling Banshees is weird when Striking Scorpions are way closer to them.
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Oct 30, 2017 04:51
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Safety Factor posted:Assault marines have always been bad Not now that they can all throw melta bo- Oh never mind wrong thread
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Oct 30, 2017 04:52
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Safety Factor posted:Assault marines have always been bad My assault marines always die. Sometimes before their charge gose off. I always bring jumpbacks and it just doesn't matter most times. I'm building an eldar army now.
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Oct 30, 2017 04:53
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I had a buddy who was always super proud of his Assault Marines, and would blame their guaranteed swatting off the table as really unlucky dice. We didn't have the heart to tell him they're bad.
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Oct 30, 2017 04:55
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Comparing Assault Marines to Howling Banshees is weird when Striking Scorpions are way closer to them. I didn't even look at those because I've literally never seen one in real life 14 points a model, looks to me like they're more similar to jump pack assault marines because of the deep strike. Otherwise they're basically assault marines that might put a few mortal wounds onto the target. I don't really have much of an opinion about them really. They do the job of deep striking assault marines for 2 points less with maybe a mortal wound or two thrown in. I wouldn't say they're definitely better than jump pack marines since those have more mobility if they find themselves still alive and not in combat, and the scorpions are a bit more vulnerable to overwatch due to T3 but the cheaper cost per model is a big help. How does shadow strike work anyway? Does it trigger if a single model is edged into a forest or does the whole unit have to be in cover for it to trigger? I haven't had a lot of experience against most eldar stuff because the only local eldar is Oops All Wraiths chutche2 fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 04:57
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Endman posted:Not now that they can all throw melta bo- This unit would be nothing more than an idiotic waste of points, but it would look so loving cool. Even letting assault marines/raptors take a power weapon for every 5 like 30k assault marines might do something towards making them effective.
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Oct 30, 2017 04:58
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Safety Factor posted:I legit want to run a big block of assault marines with combat shields, their 4 allotted power swords, and something nasty on the sergeant. 30k is just cooler. I'm a big fan of these idiotic wastes of points. Choppy boiz are the best boiz.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:07
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Yeah 30k is the reason I have a bunch of assault marines but I haven't actually played it since 8th edition dropped
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Oct 30, 2017 05:08
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Broken Record Talk posted:I'm a big fan of these idiotic wastes of points. Choppy boiz are the best boiz.  
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Oct 30, 2017 05:09
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On the bright side, bikes seem pretty legit with T5, 2 wounds, and lots of shooting so those might fill my need for speed this edition. The only bikes I've actually seen used were some DA plasmaspam bikes so I don't know how good they actually are, but I like the look of them. I wish storm bolter was a special weapon option, but running squads of 3 with 2 plasmas and a storm bolter might not be bad. Anyone have experience this edition?
chutche2 fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 05:13
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I've been eyeballing Scout Bikes which look like they are crazy points efficient. They look ugly aren't the best but each model gets a shotgun + a stormbolter.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:18
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Pendent posted:I've been eyeballing Scout Bikes which look like they are crazy points efficient. They really are. My friend got a couple of them, gave the sergeant a combi-plasma. All those bolter and shotgun shots are beastly, and a scout bike costs barely more than an intercessor does.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:20
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I honestly don't get why assault marines aren't even allowed the luxury of power weapons. Chainswords just aren't great for actual fighting unless you can get volume, and Marines just don't have volume. I mean, hell, at least Reivers have lockdown potential to make themselves worth it. Even if you don't do great on the melee, a lack of need for Overwatch is helpful.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:25
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Vanguard can get volume at least, with paying a few more points for +1A. I keep trying to put vanguard into lists and try to make them work, but the only thing I've found that actually reliably gets them into a fight is putting them in a stormraven, 1W marine bodies are too fragile to advance up the field if they're a melee threat, and deep striking without any charge bonus rules isn't reliable enough for dudes I'm spending 22-30 points per model on. But then since they have power weapon access I mainly just use those, only giving one or two chainswords so they can be the first ones to die as cheaper models. But it still feels not worth it to bring it since they usually don't kill enough to make up their points, then their target falls back and they get shot to death. Maybe I'll try fielding a bunch of chainsword vanguard and deep striking them somewhere. 18 points a model with 3 attacks plus a pistol each and since I'm not buying upgrades I don't care as much if they fail their charge and die. Vanguard pay 6 points per chainsword attack, assault marines pay 8 points per attack. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 05:29
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chutche2 posted:They really are. My friend got a couple of them, gave the sergeant a combi-plasma. All those bolter and shotgun shots are beastly, and a scout bike costs barely more than an intercessor does. I really feel like the internal balance of the marine codex is sort of poo poo. You can definitely tell it was the first to release. The Bee posted:I honestly don't get why assault marines aren't even allowed the luxury of power weapons. Chainswords just aren't great for actual fighting unless you can get volume, and Marines just don't have volume. Chainswords should have had a -1 rend alongside the +1 attack. I don't care if you have to pay for it, a weapon that iconic shouldn't be so poor.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:30
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I'm real into how dumpy the Vindicator looks. Are they actually any good on the table?
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Oct 30, 2017 05:32
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mango sentinel posted:I'm real into how dumpy the Vindicator looks. Are they actually any good on the table? In my 8th ed experience, not so much, but I haven't used them with the strategem
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Oct 30, 2017 05:34
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chutche2 posted:Vanguard can get volume at least, with paying a few more points for +1A. I keep trying to put vanguard into lists and try to make them work, but the only thing I've found that actually reliably gets them into a fight is putting them in a stormraven, 1W marine bodies are too fragile to advance up the field if they're a melee threat, and deep striking without any charge bonus rules isn't reliable enough for dudes I'm spending 22-30 points per model on. But then since they have power weapon access I mainly just use those, only giving one or two chainswords so they can be the first ones to die as cheaper models. But it still feels not worth it to bring it since they usually don't kill enough to make up their points, then their target falls back and they get shot to death. One of the very few objectively pretty decent things Blood Angels players have going for us are Company Veterans. You can load out a 5-man squad with stormbolters, power axes and jump packs for 130 points. It doesn't matter as much if you miss that charge if you're doing some decent shooting as well.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:34
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mango sentinel posted:I'm real into how dumpy the Vindicator looks. Are they actually any good on the table? They're good for shooting up units of 5+ model multiwound infantry and that's literally it. That's not entirely true, I've had success just having a vindicator somewhere important taking hits at toughness 8 vs tyranids or other armies who have trouble getting wounds on T8 but it does fuckall offensively. Anyway, I feel like 8th edition has done a good job making a lot of units feel better, but assault marines in the stories and the videogames are these brutal hard-hitting melee units that tear stuff apart, and then when you use them in game a unit of 5 will kill like 3 guardsmen a turn if they even make it to melee. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 05:34
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Which if any Spess Marine tank variants are good without building specifically around them.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:46
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mango sentinel posted:Which if any Spess Marine tank variants are good without building specifically around them. I've had a lot of success with predators. Autocannon + lascannon is a really brutal tank because of how versatile that autocannon is. You don't need killshot to make predators work, it just helps. After their point decrease they're really nice. Land raider crusader also seems amazing. Haven't tried any other land raider varieties this edition. Razorbacks are the best tank in the codex and honestly that's the main unit other than guilliman and storm ravens that even makes marines viable. I don't have a whirlwind but I've fought them a few times and they consistently do pretty well for themselves. I've only used my sicaran venator once in 8th and it either missed every neutron laser shot or rolled 1s to wound, and it was against tyranids anyway so its special rule wouldn't have mattered. Seems like it'd be decent at loving with superheavies though.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:50
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I'm not brave enough to take a close range land raider variant because I know they'd just get locked in combat for the entire game.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:58
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Pendent posted:I'm not brave enough to take a close range land raider variant because I know they'd just get locked in combat for the entire game. Yeah, that is fair. The fallback mechanics seem overly generous for infantry and overly punishing for vehicles.
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Oct 30, 2017 05:59
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chutche2 posted:Yeah, that is fair. I spent one game with my Sicaran locked in combat the entire time without firing a single shot and then immediately bought a Repulsor. Fly is critical for any vehicle about like 200 points.
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Oct 30, 2017 06:02
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Not sure I'd be able to get used to using a mini-holder for painting. It'll be like the time someone suggested I get a magnifier to paint through, impractical due to 30 years of holding mini's by the base and resting both my wrists on the desk edge (I do swear by the light from the magnifier though, having it at point blank range over the model when painting makes a huge difference). I suppose using the new mini holder as a buttplug would encourage better posture for those longer painting sessions though.
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Oct 30, 2017 09:04
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If anyone is interested in the Tyranid codex leaks so far I posted a summary here: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/53797/codex-rules-preview-updated-summary It covers a good chunk of the changes tl;dr Hive Tyrants got tougher, across the board improvements to ranged weapons, cheaper wargear, moderate points adjustments on units, shrikes are confirmed as squatted, lots of anti-psyker shenanigans xtothez fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 10:25
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The Bee posted:I honestly don't get why assault marines aren't even allowed the luxury of power weapons. Chainswords just aren't great for actual fighting unless you can get volume, and Marines just don't have volume. Lockdown is literally the only thing they seem good for. One of my intercessor squads got charged by deep striking reivers. It was a draw. When both sides have a 3+ the 3 power sword attacks from the sergeant do an awful lot of work.
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Oct 30, 2017 11:04
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xtothez posted:If anyone is interested in the Tyranid codex leaks so far I posted a summary here: Seems mostly all right. Not quite as big changes as I would have liked to see, but still pretty nice buffs all around.
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Oct 30, 2017 11:56
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So how are you supposed to fight genestealers with a 3+/5++
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Oct 30, 2017 12:02
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chutche2 posted:So how are you supposed to fight genestealers with a 3+/5++ 
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Oct 30, 2017 12:09
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The Jormagundr "Enemy below" strategem is really cool
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Oct 30, 2017 12:11
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Losing Swift and Deadly does hurt, though. It'll be a lot slower to footslog those to the frontlines. Now putting them in a tyrannocyte or a burrowed tunnel...
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Oct 30, 2017 12:12
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Attestant posted:Losing Swift and Deadly does hurt, though. It'll be a lot slower to footslog those to the frontlines. Does it, though? They're still going to run 8+d6 turn 1 then charge 8+2d6 turn 2. This just means you can't spike your charge and advance rolls to get top of 1 charges off. Still might get a bottom of 1 charge if they move up, and still might get a turn 1 charge if your opponent deploys close to you on one of the maps that has closer deployment zones. Or you can just cast onslaught on them. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 12:20
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Wait, shrikes are gone? So what about all the people that put wings on their warriors? Is it just going to be a warrior with a bio-morph now or are they gone entirely?
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Oct 30, 2017 12:50
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