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Penguins Like Pies posted:I think practicing crim requires a certain amount of compassion. As a defence lawyer, you're fighting for your client's rights and minimizing the restrictions on his liberties. If you didn't care about your client on some level, it would be very difficult to put forth a valid and convincing argument at trial or sentencing. As long as you care about beating the DA because he's a bastard you'll be fine.
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Aug 14, 2011 23:12
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nm posted:I dunno. What about if the DA is a really nice guy 
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Aug 14, 2011 23:16
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nm posted:I dunno. That is definitely true for at least one I've encountered so far. The rest have been fairly nice and reasonable. But having to argue against the same rear end in a top hat all the time would make me quit asap.
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Aug 14, 2011 23:20
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prussian advisor posted:What about if the DA is a really nice guy The real nice DAs get fired.
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Aug 14, 2011 23:58
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Penguins Like Pies posted:I think practicing crim requires a certain amount of compassion. As a defence lawyer, you're fighting for your client's rights and minimizing the restrictions on his liberties. If you didn't care about your client on some level, it would be very difficult to put forth a valid and convincing argument at trial or sentencing. heh quote:Maybe my views will change in 5 to 10 years and I'll hate everyone, but if that happens, I shouldn't be practicing since I would be an ineffective counsel. HEH
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Aug 15, 2011 00:37
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Adar posted:It's not the jobs/lack thereof, it's that both sides of crim law successfully turn your soul into a black hole even faster than immigration, which itself is pretty high up there with personal injury on the 'you will hate people very quickly' list. Truth. The first time I had video proof that the story my client told me was bullshit, I could feel what was left of my soul being shattered.
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Aug 15, 2011 02:25
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Adar posted:HEH Criminal law: Suitable only for the young and naive? I expect my clients to lie to me on some level. The straight up honest ones are refreshing. I've always dealt with criminals in my "real" jobs, so maybe that's why I'm not broken. Or maybe by virtue of dealing with criminals, I am a broken individual. To be honest, I hear about the work that my friends do for civil and I cannot imagine having to deal with the majority of that work. Reading the civil transcripts and the legal documents for a couple of my files made me want to gouge my eyes out. To each their own, I guess.
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Aug 15, 2011 02:38
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More like criminal law: suitable for those who aren't just "glass half empty", but "glass 90% full? it could be fuller." And yeah dealing with career / professional criminals is enjoyable when they're just like "yeah, I did it. this is why, this is how. What can we do about it?" In an odd way a drug trafficker with a 4 page criminal record is more credible than a guy popping his cherry, because the trafficker knows you don't care about his poo poo
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Aug 15, 2011 03:22
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Save me jeebus posted:Lawgunes, I need your take on a situation because I don't know if I'm rightfully pissed or being a big baby. Adar posted:It's callous and might be irresponsible but to be perfectly honest, if I were in his position and got an appointed client that skipped on a plea hearing, I would probably not be going out of my way to help the guy either. This is especially relevant because you have no idea whether he wants to plead again or to delay it 8 more times and FTA another couple of them for completeness' sake. Adar posted:It's not the jobs/lack thereof, it's that both sides of crim law successfully turn your soul into a black hole even faster than immigration, which itself is pretty high up there with personal injury on the 'you will hate people very quickly' list. nm posted:DAs who think they are nice guys are the worst. Because they're not. Vander posted:Truth. The first time I had video proof that the story my client told me was bullshit, I could feel what was left of my soul being shattered. Your job as a defense counsel is to protect those who have fallen short of perfection from the wrath of those who believe they have attained it.[/sloganeering] Penguins Like Pies posted:Criminal law: Suitable only for the young and naive? I expect my clients to lie to me on some level. The straight up honest ones are refreshing. I've always dealt with criminals in my "real" jobs, so maybe that's why I'm not broken. Or maybe by virtue of dealing with criminals, I am a broken individual. Willful innocence is my version of naivete. We're all broken - for some of us, helping others with their brokenness helps our own. And crim law is fun and vital in a way that civil law is only very rarely. hypocrite lecteur posted:More like criminal law: suitable for those who aren't just "glass half empty", but "glass 90% full? it could be fuller."
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Aug 15, 2011 03:56
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Penguins Like Pies posted:That is definitely true for at least one I've encountered so far. The rest have been fairly nice and reasonable. I've done both civil and criminal law and even the worst DA doesn't hold a candle to the horror show opposing counsel can be on a civil case (mostly because there are so few discovery fights in criminal law compared to civil, plus no incentive to run up the bill on both sides). Hilariously enough, my criminal clients are dreams compared to my old family law clients. Hell, I do criminal defense now and I've seriously never been happier since I started practicing law. A case against a predictable opponent with few to no discovery issues where I only concentrate on negotiations and jury trials? Yes please, any day. GamingHyena fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Aug 15, 2011 |
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Aug 15, 2011 06:38
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GamingHyena posted:A case against a predictable opponent with few to no discovery issues where I only concentrate on negotiations and jury trials? Yes please, any day. Not to mention a 50 day process to find out if the police department knows if the cop is a racist pig who beats people up. Brady v. Maryland? gently caress son, you in Cali not Mary Land, read Pitchess. CA Supreme Court trumps Federal Supreme Court in this house.
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Aug 15, 2011 06:50
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nm posted:No to few discover issues? Not in California, where I have to actually have a court order the DA hand over my client's own rap sheet. Woooo It must be nice to have a forum to litigate discovery issues in criminal cases. In my state that isn't an issue because defendants have so few rights to discovery anymore that there simply isn't much to fight over. Generally I'm entitled to look at (notice I didn't say 'get copies of') any documents that make it into the DA's file and view videos. That's about it. Imagine my surprise the day I realized that a civil litigant suing over some petty bullshit has far more sweeping powers of discovery than a guy facing life in prison. GamingHyena fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Aug 15, 2011 |
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Aug 15, 2011 07:00
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Pfff, acting like a good old fashioned civil litigation discovery dump isn't the height of hilarity.
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Aug 15, 2011 07:20
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Sucks to be y'all then. I get a copy of literally everything the prosecution has on my clients that they aren't ethically barred from handing over.
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Aug 15, 2011 16:06
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nm posted:No to few discover issues? Not in California, where I have to actually have a court order the DA hand over my client's own rap sheet. Woooo The entire concept of them just boggles the mind. Keep in mind too that the most likely thing I am going to get out of a Pitchess motion is the identity of somebody who has made a complaint against that cop previously. Meaning the chances I get to use it at trial are slim even after a successful motion turns something up -- the story has got to be credible, corroborated, emotionally appealing, and similar enough to my clients' to make it worthwhile to put on. I also love the time limit. What is it, 5 years? My client's 17 year old embezzlement conviction for taking $20 from the till at Taco Bell comes in to gently caress him if he testifies, but a cop who was found in an internal investigation to have blatantly lied on his police reports 6 years ago is shielded by "officer privacy" concerns and can testify secure that the defense attorney doesn't even know about the incident. Also what a waste of money. Cities hire expensive outside counsel to fight these motions tooth and nail even if the officer's personnel file is empty. rough transcript of my last Pitchess hearing: "So you see your honor, as set forth in my client's affidavit, he was acting non-violently and non-threateningly when the cops decided to gang-tackle him, dislocate his shoulder, and beat the stuffing out of him." "Well yes srsly, and quite honestly, that's not too different from what is in the police reports. Just a matter of interpretation as to what might be violent or threatening. I don't think there's enough of a difference here to get into that file." "Yes, a matter of interpretation for the jury, your honor. My client should be allowed to present evidence of other incidents, should they exist, to show that the officers' interpretation of his actions was unreasonable." "If this were a trial it would be a matter for the jury, but this is a Pitchess motion! I make the call!" "It's a prima facie standard your honor. If you're saying that the question would survive a directed verdict and make it to the jury, I've met my burden in this hearing."* "Huh? Um, no.. that's not what I am saying... um... why don't I give you a chance to gather more evidence? We'll continue the hearing. 3 weeks?" "The DA, my co-counsel, and my client will be thrilled to hear it. Thank you your honor." *(this is correct as to the affirmative defense use of the evidence, but not to the state's case in chief use) srsly fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Aug 15, 2011 |
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Aug 15, 2011 16:09
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Wow that sucks. Get some new supreme court justices or something, how can you have a fair trial / make full answer and defence when you're not entitled to know the case you have to meet
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Aug 15, 2011 17:21
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Vander posted:Sucks to be y'all then. I get a copy of literally everything the prosecution has on my clients that they aren't ethically barred from handing over. Yeah our office has a well defined list of things we automatically provide. I literally ignore motions to compel or just give them to the discovery paralegals if there's a legit problem. Also I had my new favorite hearing. A meth head victim demanded seven grand for a dented tree at a restitution hearing. The tree was flourishing quite nicely, and the defendant had several pictures showing this, and drat was it hilarious watching someone argue the intrinsic value of "God's creation."
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Aug 15, 2011 20:46
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BigHead posted:Also I had my new favorite hearing. A meth head victim demanded seven grand for a dented tree at a restitution hearing. The tree was flourishing quite nicely, and the defendant had several pictures showing this, and drat was it hilarious watching someone argue the intrinsic value of "God's creation." The best part of morning calendar starts whenever the judge says 'and you're appearing pro per?' Sometimes you get impassioned ranting. Sometimes you get a tearful rambling speech. Sometimes you get some really sad story about a couple or whoever about to lose their home. The best ending is when the judge sympathizes, and says 'I can't give you legal advice, but' and then tells them exactly what to do.
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Aug 15, 2011 21:29
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Copernic posted:The best part of morning calendar starts whenever the judge says 'and you're appearing pro per?' My favorite is having to take recess to clean the courtroom because the pro se literally bloodied his hand on the table, slamming it to emphasize his point every time. Even after the court noted the bleeding on the record. Yes, he kept slamming his hand after that.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:13
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Copernic posted:The best part of morning calendar starts whenever the judge says 'and you're appearing pro per?' What lands on my desk right as I read this but a reporters transcript for some civil trial On the face: APPEARANCES: FOR THE PETITIONER: John Doe IN PRO PER FOR THE RESPONDENT: Jane Doe IN PRO PER Fun awaits, I'm sure.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:36
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Copernic posted:The best part of morning calendar starts whenever the judge says 'and you're appearing pro per?' Oh my victim wasn't pro per, she was a victim in a criminal proceeding. As the prosecutor, I was nominally on her side. My entire oral argument boiled down to "your honor the victim articulates her loss much better than I can." Hence the hilarity that I technically argued a dent in bark was worth seven grand.
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Aug 15, 2011 23:09
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nm posted:Ooohoho.
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Aug 15, 2011 23:13
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BigHead posted:Also I had my new favorite hearing. A meth head victim demanded seven grand for a dented tree at a restitution hearing. The tree was flourishing quite nicely, and the defendant had several pictures showing this, and drat was it hilarious watching someone argue the intrinsic value of "God's creation." It isn't just laypeople that do this. My favorite part of literally every federal civil rights lawsuit I've been involved in is reading the complaint for the first time and coming to the portion where the plaintiffs' attorney channels his inner poet and waxes on and on about how a dollar value cannot possibly compensate for the horrors wrought on his client by the (alleged) violation of his civil rights. The best example I have of this is the assertion made by one attorney that an (alleged) violation of the civil rights of his client (a violent felon with an extensive criminal record dating back to the instant he could walk) resulted in him giving up on his lifelong dream of becoming a police officer due to his loss of faith in the system.
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Aug 16, 2011 00:02
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cerebral posted:It isn't just laypeople that do this. My favorite part of literally every federal civil rights lawsuit I've been involved in is reading the complaint for the first time and coming to the portion where the plaintiffs' attorney channels his inner poet and waxes on and on about how a dollar value cannot possibly compensate for the horrors wrought on his client by the (alleged) violation of his civil rights. Clearly we should have thrown the perp in the clanker when he started his reign of terror (walking age)
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Aug 16, 2011 04:30
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Your honor, he unlawfully entered the kitchen after bedtime with the intent to steal a cookie.
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Aug 16, 2011 05:42
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Loving the swarm of lawgoons hitting up the JD or MBA thread. But seriously, when and how did people get the idea that a law degree helps with consulting?
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Aug 16, 2011 17:56
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Omerta posted:Loving the swarm of lawgoons hitting up the JD or MBA thread. Whenever someone tells me they're going to go to law school, it's now instinctual to tell them "Don't do it." Then when they tell you what school they were accepted to and are so proud, it's so hard to crush their dreams. 
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Aug 16, 2011 18:05
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It's not always tough. A guy in my fraternity is starting law school at Valpo (full tuition, obviously) this year. I bet him $100 that he wouldn't have a legal job or would be making less than $30k after he graduated. Jokes on me though because he'll have no money haha!
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Aug 16, 2011 18:11
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Well starting the first day of my job with the Michigan Court of Appeals Research Division tomorrow after two days of mind-numbing computer training. So far the government life seems pretty sweet...flexible start/end time, 40 hours, no weekends, good benefits...if my state doesn't resume having unpaid furlough days to save money and Snyder doesn't give a bunch of people the ax, life seems pretty good for the next couple years.
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Aug 16, 2011 22:28
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Checking in after a long time! Starting my 3L Fall at Florida; have a job after graduation locked down. I'm glad I don't have to worry about that all year.
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Aug 17, 2011 00:24
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Bad interview + return to alcohol + wall of work = gently caress this noise. Hey guys, good luck this year (since it's start[ed]/[ing soon])!
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Aug 17, 2011 00:44
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Not James Buchanan fucked around with this message at 02:52 on May 2, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2011 01:07
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Doing OCI as a 3L is the saddest thing, just throwing that out there
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Aug 17, 2011 01:29
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buzzsaw.gif posted:Checking in after a long time! What job?
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Aug 17, 2011 02:42
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Got hit by a car while biking home today. Thought I was ok and was kind of in shock so I waved the motorist off and told him I was fine when he came back to check on me. Then found out my bike was wrecked (frame all bent) and I'll have to pay for a new one out of pocket. Was going to make some sort of crack about being an anti-ambulance chaser but instead I think I'll just go to bed.
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Aug 17, 2011 04:42
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I just got a call from my brother in law, who's a 3L at a nosebleed university. He got an offer from one of his two summer associate positions he had this summer. Luckily, it's from his dream firm. Unluckily, they want to defer him until 2013. Normally I would say sweet because my sister has a bun in the oven and she kinda wants to keep working anyway, but the odd thing is that the firm didn't offer him a stipend. Is it normal for firms to offer 1 year deferments without any stipends whatsoever? I ask because they, like, need money and diapers and stuff and have asked me my opinion on negotiations with a firm that extends an offer, something I know nothing about.
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Aug 17, 2011 05:33
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BigHead posted:Unluckily, they want to defer him until 2013. Normally I would say sweet because my sister has a bun in the oven and she kinda wants to keep working anyway, but the odd thing is that the firm didn't offer him a stipend. This doesn't seem like an offer to me.
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Aug 17, 2011 16:00
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My One-L year starts next week at Southwestern! All I can hear is the cha-ching of the cash register. Half scholarship yo
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Aug 17, 2011 16:01
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molomoloch posted:My One-L year starts next week at Southwestern! All I can hear is the cha-ching of the cash register. Half scholarship yo You got in to Michigan, Georgetown, Texas ... and chose Southwestern? Really?
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Aug 17, 2011 16:23
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Half scholarship for the win!
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Aug 17, 2011 16:31
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